- Sep 11, 2018
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Blueprinted action?
- Thread starter KOPFJÄGER13
- Start date
- Sep 11, 2018
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So its basically trueing the action.... can there really actually be a significant difference in accuracy ?
I have no experience with a blue printed action so I can't say. However, if it were pointless, there wouldn't be any one doing it.
but there's also a reason very few are anymore since we have $850-1k custom actions
?
Ummm, probably not.
More likely that 95% of the custom actions on this site will outshoot your factory Remy.
There is a reason why custom actions are growing in popularity and factory actions, such as the now garbage factory Remingtons being produced, are nearly closing their doors.
Ummm, probably not.
More likely that 95% of the custom actions on this site will outshoot your factory Remy.
There is a reason why custom actions are growing in popularity and factory actions, such as the now garbage factory Remingtons being produced, are nearly closing their doors.
Kickin45
You better take a long hard look at what you just called a factory 700 in the picture.
And most custom actions have sloppier tolerances than the gun pictured.
The barrel on that gun is 1.750 inches in diameter and 34 inches long and I doubt you have ever seen anything like it.
You better take a long hard look at what you just called a factory 700 in the picture.
And most custom actions have sloppier tolerances than the gun pictured.
The barrel on that gun is 1.750 inches in diameter and 34 inches long and I doubt you have ever seen anything like it.
Have seen several blueprinted actions shoot 1/4” groups over many years of LE service. Better than the new AI guns my team has do. Actions have little to do with accuracy as the barre is where most performance comes from. As long as lugs lock up consistently your fine.
Stupid Question: Are Custom actions (Defiance, Surgeon, Impact Precision and so on) blueprinted by default? What I'm trying to ask is, aren't they build as precise as what a blueprint would do?
Hope I make sense?
Hope I make sense?
The way I understand it is that the “blueprint” is to get things square and flat. Things like bolt faces and lugs etc. Remington, as I understand it, is NOT producing actions right now that are particularly good at being square or flat where they sre supposed to be. Things like threads being cut off square etc.
as I also understand, the newer, custom actions are, from the factory, very, very good. That’s the big draw. Builders can start with an action that’s as close to perfection as machines can do, and that’s DAMN good nowadays. Modern CNC machines can carry accuracy out to the fourth decimal, or to ten thousands of an inch. Having to make a factory Remington that good, can take a significant amount of time and labor, this making the difference worth it to just go custom from the start. Also, a “blueprinted” Remington action, at the end of the day is still just a Remington. It’ll NEVER be a Mausingfield, Tempest, Surgeon, etc.
Now, one that I know will throw it’s name with the better actions is Tikka/Sako. My buddy JUST got his Tikka back from GA Precision. They didn’t have to touch the factory action. It was “perfect “ as Tikka turned it out. This is no doubt a big part of why so many here will recommend Tikkas to folks just starting out. It’s DAMN good as it is.
This is what I have learned and put together over the last couple years.
as I also understand, the newer, custom actions are, from the factory, very, very good. That’s the big draw. Builders can start with an action that’s as close to perfection as machines can do, and that’s DAMN good nowadays. Modern CNC machines can carry accuracy out to the fourth decimal, or to ten thousands of an inch. Having to make a factory Remington that good, can take a significant amount of time and labor, this making the difference worth it to just go custom from the start. Also, a “blueprinted” Remington action, at the end of the day is still just a Remington. It’ll NEVER be a Mausingfield, Tempest, Surgeon, etc.
Now, one that I know will throw it’s name with the better actions is Tikka/Sako. My buddy JUST got his Tikka back from GA Precision. They didn’t have to touch the factory action. It was “perfect “ as Tikka turned it out. This is no doubt a big part of why so many here will recommend Tikkas to folks just starting out. It’s DAMN good as it is.
This is what I have learned and put together over the last couple years.
Stupid Question: Are Custom actions (Defiance, Surgeon, Impact Precision and so on) blueprinted by default? What I'm trying to ask is, aren't they build as precise as what a blueprint would do?
Hope I make sense?
Your question makes perfect sense.
The custom actions offer you more features not found on a factory action.
The tolerances used is a sport issue. You don't use the same tolerances for a tactical rifle as you would a Benchrest rifle.
Blueprinting makes sure the tolerances you choose are uniform throughout the action and that everything is as perfect as it can be given that level of tolerances..
A tactical bolt might have 0.004 - 0.006 of clearance so dirt and debris don't cause it to bind up.
A Benchrest action might have 0.001 clearance so the firing pin springs force doesn't lift the lugs off of there abutments as much.
When you go to a manufacturer's website some of them will tell you what the clearances will be or they will categorize the actions.
Stiller actions will call them a Diamondback for Benchrest or a Tac series for what most do here.
The Tac series is machined true and straight but has more tolerance on bolt fit than a Diamondback.
When a Remington 700 is blueprinted all the surfaces are trued and corrected then your intended use for the action dictates what tolerance you will use on the bolts fit into the action.
You can tighten the fit up over that of a lot of the customs because the end use determines what that tolerance should actually be.
In the video you can hear the tolerance on a factory bolt slopping around in the action.
The second bolt has 0.001 clearance and it doesn't slip around much.
The 3rd bolt will be sized for what some call a fitted bolt or as little tolerance as is possible and still get the bolt into and out of the action.
Hope that helps it's early for me.
Hope I make sense?
Your question makes perfect sense.
The custom actions offer you more features not found on a factory action.
The tolerances used is a sport issue. You don't use the same tolerances for a tactical rifle as you would a Benchrest rifle.
Blueprinting makes sure the tolerances you choose are uniform throughout the action and that everything is as perfect as it can be given that level of tolerances..
A tactical bolt might have 0.004 - 0.006 of clearance so dirt and debris don't cause it to bind up.
A Benchrest action might have 0.001 clearance so the firing pin springs force doesn't lift the lugs off of there abutments as much.
When you go to a manufacturer's website some of them will tell you what the clearances will be or they will categorize the actions.
Stiller actions will call them a Diamondback for Benchrest or a Tac series for what most do here.
The Tac series is machined true and straight but has more tolerance on bolt fit than a Diamondback.
When a Remington 700 is blueprinted all the surfaces are trued and corrected then your intended use for the action dictates what tolerance you will use on the bolts fit into the action.
You can tighten the fit up over that of a lot of the customs because the end use determines what that tolerance should actually be.
In the video you can hear the tolerance on a factory bolt slopping around in the action.
The second bolt has 0.001 clearance and it doesn't slip around much.
The 3rd bolt will be sized for what some call a fitted bolt or as little tolerance as is possible and still get the bolt into and out of the action.
Hope that helps it's early for me.
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You will get far better accuracy with a quality barrel then trueing the action. Yes a trued actin is nice, but I honestly doubt it adds 1/8 moa better accuracy than a standard action.
The reason people buy custom over trued is basic resale, A custom holds their value better. A trued Remington with a good barrel will shoot with any custom, if they wouldn’t GAP and other companies wouldn’t sell them. But I for one basically disregard a trued action when buying a rifle, people seem to want the same money as a custom action. To me, if there are two rifles for sale...one with a custom action one without, the trued action better be 6-800 less for them to appeal to me.
The reason people buy custom over trued is basic resale, A custom holds their value better. A trued Remington with a good barrel will shoot with any custom, if they wouldn’t GAP and other companies wouldn’t sell them. But I for one basically disregard a trued action when buying a rifle, people seem to want the same money as a custom action. To me, if there are two rifles for sale...one with a custom action one without, the trued action better be 6-800 less for them to appeal to me.
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- Sep 11, 2018
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I have 2 blueprinted Remy actions and although they do smooth everything up, they are still not on par with Impact, surgeon, Badger etc.
They are now similar to a factory Tikka action.
I would never spend the $ again on bp’ing a factory Remy action with so many superior options available. And I agree that the barrel and trigger are the best accuracy improver in a rifle, a smooth and easily operated bolt improves the shooters accuracy for certain.
They are now similar to a factory Tikka action.
I would never spend the $ again on bp’ing a factory Remy action with so many superior options available. And I agree that the barrel and trigger are the best accuracy improver in a rifle, a smooth and easily operated bolt improves the shooters accuracy for certain.
Without bringing accuracy into the picture, the .223, .308 and .338 700s I've purchased have all had issues due to sloppy work ranging from really poor bolt fit, overly large firing pin hole, misaligned scope mount holes to a chamber bored a little off center. All of them would shoot 3/4 moa consistently with well developed handloads.
That said my first custom was pretty much an assault on the then state of the art. It shot a bughole the first five rounds of barrel break in. Well, not quite. I didn't see the hole getting any bigger the first three shots so I pulled one over an inch to see what was happening and then put another two in the first hole. It was a relief because I wrapped up a lot of money in that rifle.
I won't buy a factory rifle anymore as I have plenty of them. Any new rifles will be built from an aftermarket action simply because they don't need any work to correct substandard factory issues. And if they did they would go back the manufacturer. Remington will just tell you it meets their standards.
The statements about the barrel are true provided that the chambering is exactly inline with the cernterline of the bore.
That said my first custom was pretty much an assault on the then state of the art. It shot a bughole the first five rounds of barrel break in. Well, not quite. I didn't see the hole getting any bigger the first three shots so I pulled one over an inch to see what was happening and then put another two in the first hole. It was a relief because I wrapped up a lot of money in that rifle.
I won't buy a factory rifle anymore as I have plenty of them. Any new rifles will be built from an aftermarket action simply because they don't need any work to correct substandard factory issues. And if they did they would go back the manufacturer. Remington will just tell you it meets their standards.
The statements about the barrel are true provided that the chambering is exactly inline with the cernterline of the bore.
Yeah but a Remington bare receiver runs $200 and a PT&G bolt runs another $300 so Joe average can have any tolerance he wants at an affordable price.
The custom start around $1100 and go up so the little guy on a budget can piece meal a gun together that shoots extremely well.
The custom start around $1100 and go up so the little guy on a budget can piece meal a gun together that shoots extremely well.
Several customs out that are under $1000, Bighorn, Gunwerks, Alamo Precision...
Your scenarios is $500 without work which will be another $3-500
I wish people would stop confusing the words tolerance and fit with each other.
Close tolerances do not necessarily equal a close fit. You do need parts held to very close tolerances to make a near net fit assembly work properly, but two mating parts made to very close tolerances can have a sloppy ass fit between them by design.
Close tolerances do not necessarily equal a close fit. You do need parts held to very close tolerances to make a near net fit assembly work properly, but two mating parts made to very close tolerances can have a sloppy ass fit between them by design.
If remington's factory action was substandard then why are so many custom actions built on remington's footprint? I would only blueprint an action I already had, rather than purchase one for a few hundred and spend a few hundred more to get it printed. At that point your are 80% into the cost of a custom action.
it used to be THE option. they were better. and it was the standard. stock triggers all made the R700 pattern. make sense to stay with that
LOL
You don't know wtf you're talking about......
Dimensional and positional tolerances are not EVER made public.
You're associating two things that have nothing to do with each other.
The "footprint" of the Remington Model 700 is chosen by most action builders because it opens a huge aftermarket to their customers.
Remington's actions aren't substandard in design (though it's not the best), they are substandard in manufacture.
I agree they are not manufactured to the highest degree of straightness or tolerances etc. Just saying that there is obviously something good about them, and that is aftermarket components. Just a decent platform to build off of.
You still didn't understand what I said. Yeah we get it, Remington fanboys....whatever.
In their day, Remington was pretty good. A ton of aftermarket stuff like stocks and triggers were made for them, and it became a mainstream design, and people have stuck with that design. The fact that Remington has let their quality go downhill is sad, however, the aftermarket products based on the design continue to improve using modern manufacturing methods.
The difference between the Rimrock LSR and SSR actions and the Alpine and Timberline actions is that the Rimrock actions feature the “Borden Bumps”. The already tight bolt to receiver fit on the Alpine and Timberline actions (<.002 inch) make them tighter than the competition and are ideal for precision hunting rifles.
These actions are made to specifications and tolerances that are unmatched in any other Remington “clone” action on the market.
Custom actions produced by Borden Rifles are made to benchrest precision and quality and require no modifications to deliver unparalleled accuracy
The Custom Actions manufactured by Borden Rifles operate smoothly and perform exceptionally due to the integration of key bolt and action design concepts. The combined aspects of the design integration and the execution of quality control to maintain close machining tolerances results in actions that deliver improved performance. The fire control system is designed to minimize drag in the firing pin/spring/cocking piece system. As a result, Rimrock, Alpine and Timberline actions deliver minimum locktimes while maintaining firing pin impact energy. The Rimrock actions utilize the patented Borden Bumps with a minimal difference in bolt and bump diameter to result in smooth operation and “tight” bolt lock-up. The action bodies are machined at full hardness of 38 to 40 Rc. The bolt bodies are hardened to 44 to 46 Rc. The result of these hardnesses is a smooth running and “gall resistant” action and bolt system.
Yeah your a real expert alright!!!!
They don't mention tolerances. Oops it looks like they do.
You don't know what you don't know.
No, after a 25 year career in precision manufacturing I bet I don't
BTW, what kind of diametral tolerances is Borden holding? Numbers please, not website bullshit. You know, something like this: +/- .0002"..........
Did you just copy their website information? Lots of marketing going on that really says nothing other than fancy words to market the product.
They do mention the word tolerances but give no specifics. .002 Where? Lugs? Tennon? Bolt body? Ejector port?
Marketing hype Eg: minimal locktime while maintaining firing pin Impact energy.
What does that actually say? Lock time can vary depending on user cycling. Firing pin Impact energy? Um, that is important on a Full auto gun in relationship to lock time but on a bolt gun?
Marketing hype.
The more important is the positional tolerance and run outs to datums. At work (aerospace) lots of parts are positional +/-.001 or less for lots of holes (I don't run those parts) . Alot of the parts I run are concentric .001 (cnc crush form grinder).
That's an example of what we're talking about. Websites don't talk about stuff like this.
Remingtons became the small block Chevy of the shooting world because the design was simple for ease of manufacture. Which also made it simple to blueprint, which made it cheaper to have worked than say a flat bottom 70 or 98. Aftermarket manufacturers aren't stupid and so gravitated towards the simple design and large marketplace the 700 represented, after all everyone made stocks, triggers, scope mounts and whatever for a 700 style action.
There isn't anything wrong with blueprinting a 700, I had it done for years. It's a place to start for those on a limited budget.
But looking at it from the competition end of things, not a lot of blueprinted 700s showing up in top ten lists the last ten or twenty years now for any competition where bolt actions are used.
There isn't anything wrong with blueprinting a 700, I had it done for years. It's a place to start for those on a limited budget.
But looking at it from the competition end of things, not a lot of blueprinted 700s showing up in top ten lists the last ten or twenty years now for any competition where bolt actions are used.
You're absolutely correct and this is stuff that most people outside the industry have no idea about or a very incomplete/incorrect understanding.
It's easy for guys like me and you to tell right away who knows what they're talking about and who's making shit up to sound like they do.
I would take Jim Borden's word over yours any day of the week!! You probably don't shoot much do you?
Jim Borden is an engineer and his work isn't marketing hype. Yes it's the bolt fit and you can go to his website and read it yourself.
Stiller used to list his tolerances as well before he sold the business to Mr Trout and his Predator and Tac line was 0.004 - 0.006 bolt clearance and sub 0.002 on his Benchrest line. His rimfire line was well documented as well.
The newly manufactured tactical style actions don't list the tolerances because many were made by someone else and branded to them.
I am using a B66 Destroyer on one of my SnipeTac rifles and it is a 100% clone of a Stiller.
Those aren't tolerances. You still don't know what you're talking about.
No one gives a shit about your benchrest shooting. Your constant deflection towards how others shoot, which has nothing to do with this discussion, is honestly fucking pathetic.
You said that before and got your arse handed to you.
You simply don't know what you don't know.
Do you even shoot?
The topic at hand is blueprinting a 700 and so far you have zero knowledge about that.
Here is what the current Stiller website says.
Bolt hole is gun-drilled and then wire edm’ed with the rails to ensure exact tolerances and size control. Bolt fit to body is typically .0040 to .0060.
Maybe you can call Jerry and tell him fit and tolerance is bad wording?
In your dreams bitch
Sling up with a service rifle and let's go. Or come on over to Thunder Valley and shoot the headhunter or intimidator and we'll see what's what
Don't forget the labor for trueing face of action, more $ for finessing threads, etc??, and more $ for extra's like side bolt release.
As mentioned base model customs are coming down in price.
I've had two trued M700's, one with PTG bolt, then sending off one for GreTan firing pin mod for small pin and fit. They were/ are okay actions.
Unless a screaming deal happens on a M700 custom, so low it's stupid to not buy it, I'll stay with custom actions.
If you order up a Kiff bolt you would order it with the 0.062 firing pin to avoid paying for it down the road.
To help lower the cost you would sell the factory bolt on eBay to recover another $150- 200.
It's not for everyone but it's an option good enough for GAP Rifles and it will shoot 3.5 inches at a 1000 yards for 5 shot group.
Did I say his work is marketing hype? The post is worded in a way to make is sound great without actually saying shit. It had no specifics.
I didn't pull an entire page just to prove a point. Anybody can go to his website and read for hours what where any why it is done.
I was responding to the Pirates lame claim about tolerances and fit.
Anybody who can read can go to the various websites and gather there own information.
Did you see the post above about GAP Rifles and someone named Lowlight?
Remington RH SA?
Mike at Tac Ops has been building lasers from a Remington 700 for years. It is astonishing accuracy.
