Advanced Marksmanship Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

#101
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would of made a nice souvenir to have a video of that stage.

Actually, a video of all shooters on every stage would be a nice training tool.
I could learn a few tricks from Terry and other shooters. </div></div>

I tell you what, I was laying a couple spots down from you that day and I tell you, it was impressive as hell.
 
#102
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Several years ago in a training exercise at Ft. Meade we shot a scenario set up by a Korean war vet (John Pepper, inventor of the pepper popper) He called it the "Snow Walker" because when in Korea during the winter and deep snow the NK's would expose themselves and when fire upon would have to move back to cover but because the snow was deep they couldn't run. So the match was set up in the pits at 300 yards with two target boards about 60' apart as hard cover and a "walker" which was 2 IPSC targets stapled to a tall stick back to back so the guy walking the target could feel the hits. The "walker target would walk out from behind the hard cover and when hit would reverse direction and head back toward cover. Each time the target was hit it would reverse direction. Target time up was 30 seconds but if the target reached hard cover before the time was up it was over for that shooter. So the idea was to let it walk into the open before firing the first shot. I watched as several shooters would hit the target and then take careful aim with lead and engage the target again usually getting about 10 hits in 30 seconds. On my turn I allowed the target to get close to the middle, fired a shot and when the target stopped to reverse direction I hosed the F*** out of it and because it had to reverse direction with each hit it just sat there. The only time it moved was when I changed mags. I was on my 3rd 30 round mag when the time was up w/ 65 shots fired and 45 hits. This is the closest thing I’ve ever done to the Norway shoot but that night the gas gun ruled.
 
#103
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several years ago in a training exercise at Ft. Meade we shot a scenario set up by a Korean war vet (John Pepper, inventor of the pepper popper) He called it the "Snow Walker" because when in Korea during the winter and deep snow the NK's would expose themselves and when fire upon would have to move back to cover but because the snow was deep they couldn't run. So the match was set up in the pits at 300 yards with two target boards about 60' apart as hard cover and a "walker" which was 2 IPSC targets stapled to a tall stick back to back so the guy walking the target could feel the hits. The "walker target would walk out from behind the hard cover and when hit would reverse direction and head back toward cover. Each time the target was hit it would reverse direction. Target time up was 30 seconds but if the target reached hard cover before the time was up it was over for that shooter. So the idea was to let it walk into the open before firing the first shot. I watched as several shooters would hit the target and then take careful aim with lead and engage the target again usually getting about 10 hits in 30 seconds. On my turn I allowed the target to get close to the middle, fired a shot and when the target stopped to reverse direction I hosed the F*** out of it and because it had to reverse direction with each hit it just sat there. The only time it moved was when I changed mags. I was on my 3rd 30 round mag when the time was up w/ 65 shots fired and 45 hits. This is the closest thing I’ve ever done to the Norway shoot but that night the gas gun ruled. </div></div>

That just ROCKS! They should've given you a bonus round for that.
 
#104
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

sandwarrior That just ROCKS! They should've given you a bonus round for that. [/quote said:
Well, they didn't. In fact I got yelled at because I "circumvented the intent" of the course of fire. They since changed it so that the target goes down after 10 hits. One guy even bragged to me that he got a 90% hit ratio (9 hits out of 10 shots) and I only got a 69% ratio. But it was FUN
Click to expand...
 
#105
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first off, it's a technique and the soldiers clearly are shooting stock battle rifles as compared to race guns made for the sport.

<span style="font-weight: bold">put a competitor in there with a <span style="color: #FF0000">real competitive gas gun</span> and I guarantee, driven correctly he smokes them...</span> </div></div>

Is there a builder of competitive gas guns chambered in .260 Remington? this is a project that I've been thinking about for a while.
 
#106
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would of made a nice souvenir to have a video of that stage.

Actually, a video of all shooters on every stage would be a nice training tool.
I could learn a few tricks from Terry and other shooters. </div></div>

I tell you what, I was laying a couple spots down from you that day and I tell you, it was impressive as hell. </div></div>

And you probably remember my reaction after that stage, I was impressed too.
smile.gif


I was fortunate to have two stage in which I had a good performance, that was one and the other was the Accu-Shot stage.

I had an advantage being the last shooter of the squad.
This allowed me to evaluate the shooting condition by watching the 9 shooters before me.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the skills to take this advantage on the other stages

The other advantage of engaging the target rapidly @ 600yds is that the slight "breeze" in Kingsville did not change much in 8 seconds.
wink.gif


I choose the AR for the match because I don't have the possibility to shoot it in competition in Quebec.
I find the Highpower community in Quebec, very narrow minded.

I totally agree that my bolt is easier to shoot more accurately than my AR 10. But I love my AR
laugh.gif


Don't ask me to choose between my Gap AR or my Surgeon, I enjoy them both.

I am curious about the JP Enterprise low recoil system based on the light bolt carrier.
Does it work?
 
#107
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first off, it's a technique and the soldiers clearly are shooting stock battle rifles as compared to race guns made for the sport.

<span style="font-weight: bold">put a competitor in there with a <span style="color: #FF0000">real competitive gas gun</span> and I guarantee, driven correctly he smokes them...</span> </div></div>

Is there a builder of competitive gas guns chambered in .260 Remington? this is a project that I've been thinking about for a while. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">My bad!</span> Must insert caffeine before opening mouth! <span style="font-weight: bold">The answer is obviously GAP.</span> Duh!
 
#108
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first off, it's a technique and the soldiers clearly are shooting stock battle rifles as compared to race guns made for the sport.

Next the guys are shooting with their middle fingers, as opposed to their trigger finger because their index finger is still on the bolt. You have full blown competitors versus soldiers, which you are all assuming know how to drive a gas gun... put a competitor in there with a real competitive gas gun and I guarantee, driven correctly he smokes them... that is not the sport here.

Plus you are not watching "Shots" you are watching "Hits" there is a difference.

from what I saw, they didn't show the soldiers shooting they only showed the race gun guys, which you are probably talking a .5 MOA rifle versus a 2 MOA rifle if they are that...

If I was at Rifles Only now I would put this argument to bed toot sweet... </div></div>

Now there is someone using their head...good call
 
#109
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No Takers?? </div></div>

I tried this today with my scoped bolt gun, a Tikka 695 chambered in 6.5x55 built by Mac Tilton of MT Guns. Shot from the prone with bipod, 5 rounds per mag limit. I shot at a turkey silhouette hanger (about a 3 moa target) at 385 meters (approx 440 yards). I took some sighting shots, and ran through one 5 round mag first for practice.

Then I did it for record, with 3 observers, one on a spotting scope to verify the hits. Got a go signal from a ipsc type timer, starting with the bolt closed on a chambered round. I got off 10 shots, hit with 9, with one mag change. I "might" have been able to get off 11 shots but I wasn't counting my shots during the second mag and pulled the trigger on an empty chamber. The one shot I missed I knew it when I pulled the trigger.

Vu videoed it and when he sends me the video I'll get it up here or post a link to it. If nothing else I'd like to get a critique of my shooting.

Till then, here's a couple pics.

The hits on the neck, and one on the lower leg were there before I shot on it.

Image3.jpg


The range I shot on from the firing line.

Image2.jpg
 
#112
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first off, it's a technique and the soldiers clearly are shooting stock battle rifles as compared to race guns made for the sport.

<span style="font-weight: bold">put a competitor in there with a <span style="color: #FF0000">real competitive gas gun</span> and I guarantee, driven correctly he smokes them...</span> </div></div>

Oh I agree with that one 100% - would you do that in combat? Or would you grab the nearest SAW and lay down suppressive fire or call in an arty mission?
Sure, spotters weapon take out 10 or 15 guys running at you from 1k - definitely has it's place!!

Competitive Highpower - gas gun will be "easier" and probably win a vast majority of matches, except all of my wins were at 600 with the bolt gun, the auto's and their light bullets didn't hack the wind as well back there...but they ROCKED me at the 200 and 300 rapid fire/reload because they had a 2rd and an 8rd mag loaded - if you F up doing a reload with a clip slotted bolt rifle your day pretty much goes to hell in a handbasket
smile.gif
(FYI there were no AR-10's shooting back then, 6 or 7 years now)...




I suspect there will be a day the bolt gun is replaced, but for me that'd be a sad day...
 
#114
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Vu

Thanks for hosting the video.

Hmm, a little slow on the trigger, came off the rifle too much for the mag change, muffed a bolt cycle.

With some practice at that <span style="font-style: italic">particular</span> type of thing, I think I could maybe get in 15 shots. Maybe.

But I felt pretty good about getting off 10. Should have had all 10 hits too but I pulled the trigger when I wasn't set in position.
 
#115
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Pthfndr-CA,

I just came back to see if anything happened on this thread as there was such a gap between posts.

That was some pretty good shooting. Really nice rifle too BTW. As noted I used open sights at a closer range with a gas gun, but I used one full mag instead of changing them. Big time saver no doubt. Since that time I put a muzzle brake on and changed sights.

I'll have to try it again. Maybe when the snow melts....
 
#116
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I am getting closer to getting my AR10 done, so I am anxious to try this. Unfortunately I don't have a magazine system on my bolt gun, so I will have to limit it to 5 rounds in each weapon.

Still, with a proper shot timer that should give me an idea of the time difference between the two. The reload should be a wash between the two systems if performed properly.

Obviously if running magazines at capacity the AR10 would have the advantage with 20 or 25 round magazines. Cutting out three reloads would eliminate a lot of time.
 
#117
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

We made this one last weekend. Got the camera for Christmas, but haven't done much with it, yet (22 MB file).

LR308 AP4, w/Comp ML3 in LT, NO bipod (or sling). 1/2 scale IPSC @ 188 yds, timer didn't pick up the shots. I'm definitely faster w/AR-15 (223 w/SN4 4X in LT); sometimes the follow-up shot gets out before you hear the ding....



Fun times!

Bill
 
#118
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lowlight said:
You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first
Competitive Highpower - gas gun will be "easier" and probably win a vast majority of matches, except all of my wins were at 600 with the bolt gun, the auto's and their light bullets didn't hack the wind as well back there...but they ROCKED me at the 200 and 300 rapid fire/reload because they had a 2rd and an 8rd mag loaded - if you F up doing a reload with a clip slotted bolt rifle your day pretty much goes to hell in a handbasket
smile.gif
(FYI there were no AR-10's shooting back then, 6 or 7 years now)...

I suspect there will be a day the bolt gun is replaced, but for me that'd be a sad day... </div></div>

Gas guns do not win the majority of high power matches, at least not in NC. I cant remember the last time a gas gun won our state HP championship, be it the full course or the 300 yard reduced course championship. Its been either a modified Tikka, M70, or a T2k....no, wait a sec, I take that back, a spacegun did win the 300 yard championship in 08 but thats only cause I had a wild hair that weekend and thought it might be easier to break the national record with it vs the T2k. Ok, other than that one, no, cant think of one. Then look at the Nationals, only Carl has won with a gasgun and I suspect we are going to see him shooting a bolt gun next year, he almost did so this year.

But, a gas gun really isnt an advantage in the HP match format if one can cycle the bolt well as we have plenty of time to do what we need to do in 60/70 seconds. The bolt gun gives you a huge advantage in ergonomics, trigger, cartridge selection, and, in most cases, accuracy (but either is way more than accurate enough for our 1moa/2moa X/10 ring targets).

But, there are certainly places where the gasgun has the advantage though. But you would be surprised how fast some of us can run a bolt and put accurate shots on the target in fast order. I am intrigued however, and when the weather gets better, I may go out back and see how many shots with each In can put on a B21 steel target in say, 60 seconds. Might be an interesting result. If I do, I will try to get video and upload it somewhere.

So, I would agree with ArcticLight on the idea that it will be a sad day when the bolt guns go the way of the dinosaur but I dont think thats going to happen any time soon.

John
Click to expand...
 
#119
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lowlight said:
You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first
Competitive Highpower - gas gun will be "easier" and probably win a vast majority of matches, except all of my wins were at 600 with the bolt gun, the auto's and their light bullets didn't hack the wind as well back there...but they ROCKED me at the 200 and 300 rapid fire/reload because they had a 2rd and an 8rd mag loaded - if you F up doing a reload with a clip slotted bolt rifle your day pretty much goes to hell in a handbasket
smile.gif
(FYI there were no AR-10's shooting back then, 6 or 7 years now)...

I suspect there will be a day the bolt gun is replaced, but for me that'd be a sad day... </div></div>

Gas guns do not win the majority of high power matches, at least not in NC. I cant remember the last time a gas gun won our state HP championship, be it the full course or the 300 yard reduced course championship. Its been either a modified Tikka, M70, or a T2k....no, wait a sec, I take that back, a spacegun did win the 300 yard championship in 08 but thats only cause I had a wild hair that weekend and thought it might be easier to break the national record with it vs the T2k. Ok, other than that one, no, cant think of one. Then look at the Nationals, only Carl has won with a gasgun and I suspect we are going to see him shooting a bolt gun next year, he almost did so this year.

But, a gas gun really isnt an advantage in the HP match format if one can cycle the bolt well as we have plenty of time to do what we need to do in 60/70 seconds. The bolt gun gives you a huge advantage in ergonomics, trigger, cartridge selection, and, in most cases, accuracy (but either is way more than accurate enough for our 1moa/2moa X/10 ring targets).

But, there are certainly places where the gasgun has the advantage though. But you would be surprised how fast some of us can run a bolt and put accurate shots on the target in fast order. I am intrigued however, and when the weather gets better, I may go out back and see how many shots with each In can put on a B21 steel target in say, 60 seconds. Might be an interesting result. If I do, I will try to get video and upload it somewhere.

So, I would agree with ArcticLight on the idea that it will be a sad day when the bolt guns go the way of the dinosaur but I dont think thats going to happen any time soon.

John
</div></div>

The question isn't getting your shots off in time. Unlike HP it's how many shots you can shoot in a given time. so ya gotta shoot a lot to hit a lot.

Under current rules, bolt guns may not ever go away. This whole post though is about Stang shooting and running a comp that way. I think it's a good idea. Something different. It's not the end all decider which is better gas or bolt. But it does show how a good shooter with either can make a good mark in this game. If someone practiced up pretty hard I think a gas gun could give one of those serious bolt gunners a big-time run for his money if not beat him outright.

Lastly, we were at the point where we each, (sometime this winter) will pick the rifle of our choice and shoot as close to this comp as we care too. Pthfndr-CA and WRM made videos which both give a pretty good example of trying to shoot this way. CA with the bolt gun and WRM with the AR-10 (closer to the G3 rifle than the AR-15). Try it see how you come out.
Click to expand...
 
#120
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then look at the Nationals, only Carl has won with a gasgun and I suspect we are going to see him shooting a bolt gun next year, he almost did so this year.</div></div>

Not true Mudcat. Tubb won it with a SR25 in 6.5/08, and Greg Strom, DI Boyd and Martin Edmonson each won it with an M14 Service Rifle in addition to Carl B. (ironically DI Boyd and his M14 beat Bernosky shooting his M70 that year!)

In the context of USA Highpower Rifle Competition, I agree with you. The boltgun has the advantage in greater flexibility in cartridges and loads, and a theoretical advantage in accuracy. Practically speaking, the greater speed of an autoloader is marginally at best an advantage when you're shooting a fixed number of rounds in a generous time limit of 60 or 70 seconds.

...with that said, for the course of fire in question: Stang shooting, I believe a tricked out auto shucker with a great driver will leave the boltgunners crying. Someone like Norm Anderson shooting a Rattle Battle AR would be tough.
 
#121
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Ok, let me rephrase that, only Carl has done it recently...since the t2k has come out, has it been won with a gasgun other than Carl doing it?

Agree as to HP.

But arent the Norwegian (Arent the vids of comps in Norway? I am not sure as I cant understand a single thing they are saying! doh!) military guys the "Norm Andersons" of Norway? Are they shooting rack grade 91s or are the "tricked" out? Dunno, but I would agree, I would THINK the gas gunners could run it, but who knows.

I do know once it clears up and warms up a bit I am going to do a little testing out back...say at 300 yards, run a string of say 60 seconds with the T2k and then 60 seconds with the AR15. THen maybe the M1a (I think the AR is going to win out over the M1a, especially as my NM AR weighs in at something like 16 pounds...ie, next to no recoil.) To make it "fair" I think I will limit my AR mags to 10 rounds, as thats all that will fit in my T2k mags...I got some 20 round T2k mags but they dont go in and out as slick as my well used 10 rounders.

Either way, should be fun...will try to get some vid too.

John
 
#122
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

We could continue to put conditional statements out there to make what we want true. For instance, I could say the gas gun has won most of the recent highpower championships. (recent meaning within the last 3 years).

But that probably has little to do with Stang shooting as Lowlight has pointed out.

I wish I could understand Norweigen as well. It looks like for the stage that everyone is referring to the course of fire was as many hits as possible within 25 seconds with a 5rd mag max.

It might be more fun to try to shoot your T2K for hits within 25 seconds with the 5 rounders to see how it matches up...I know that's what I'm planning to do with my AR.

I'll hope to compare notes with you in a few weeks.
 
#123
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris F</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We could continue to put conditional statements out there to make what we want true. For instance, I could say the gas gun has won most of the recent highpower championships. (recent meaning within the last 3 years).

But that probably has little to do with Stang shooting as Lowlight has pointed out.

I wish I could understand Norweigen as well. It looks like for the stage that everyone is referring to the course of fire was as many hits as possible within 25 seconds with a 5rd mag max.

It might be more fun to try to shoot your T2K for hits within 25 seconds with the 5 rounders to see how it matches up...I know that's what I'm planning to do with my AR.

I'll hope to compare notes with you in a few weeks. </div></div>

The real world is certainly very different from a rules governed competitive event. Using a 10+ round mag defeats the purpose of running the exercise as done in the Norwegian event. For that matter, so does the use of a scope and/or bipod. But for the purposes of comparison, as long as the firearm used is limited to a 5 round mag I think it would be good enough since then it comes down as much to the shooter's skill in handling the firearm as anything else.
 
#124
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

My best with a bold action just screwing around was 10 shots on 10 targets in 22 seconds. Here is the part that sounds dumb... it was at 25 meters on at simulated 50-300m targets. Thouse of you in the military would know this as a qual target. I started with 5 rounds in gun, 1 in chamber and 4 in my firing hand. I reloaded the 4 one at at time. I was dead center mass on all accept one.
 
#126
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

If I get a chance to try the "test" I will try to mimic the Norwegian way. Anyone know what the size of the target is at 300 meters? I will try to use a steel target of the same size, etc.

As for qualifiers, of course, but again, we are only talking about theories and of different events anyhow, so its all really moot. Add in the fact that most folks cant shoot with a hoot anyhow, and its really a moot point!

John
 
#127
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kilo7788</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... it was at 25 meters on at simulated 50-300m targets. Thouse of you in the military would know this as a qual target.</div></div>

That's a great idea, and everyone could try it a try that way. I try to shoot one of Fred's reduced qual targets every month. I'd bet the 300M (rapid prone) reduced to 25M would scale really close to that Stang target....

Cheers,

Bill
 
#128
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I get a chance to try the "test" I will try to mimic the Norwegian way. Anyone know what the size of the target is at 300 meters? I will try to use a steel target of the same size, etc.

As for qualifiers, of course, but again, we are only talking about theories and of different events anyhow, so its all really moot. Add in the fact that most folks cant shoot with a hoot anyhow, and its really a moot point!

John
</div></div>

The size of the target is a shape (triangle, square, rectangle, diamond, etc.) about 25x30cm (10"x12") at an average of 240m (about 264 yds{remember average}) So about 4MOA by 5 MOA what ever range you shoot. I used a 10"x12" diamond as my target @ 300.
 
#130
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't miss fast enough to win.</div></div>

I think you better not do as much missing as hitting, or you'll be in a world of hurt down the road.
 
#132
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pthfndr-CA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't miss fast enough to win. </div></div>

And the relevance of that comment to this particular thread is exactly what?</div></div>

Speed, without accuracy won't get you anywhere, it's still all about sight alignment and trigger control; and, those two principles control how rapid rapid fire can be. Either a bolt or semi will accommodate without distinction. Far more meaningful is recoil management/control and NPA to good rapid fire results.
 
#133
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't miss fast enough to win.</div></div>

I think you better not do as much missing as hitting, or you'll be in a world of hurt down the road.</div></div>

Exactly
 
#134
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't miss fast enough to win.</div></div>

I think you better not do as much missing as hitting, or you'll be in a world of hurt down the road.</div></div>

Exactly</div></div>

Wouldn't that statement maybe better worded as: "You can't miss fast enough to lose a gunfight"?

I guess, like others, the meaning of that statement loses me. To me, clearly stated, "Hitting fast is what counts, not shooting fast," is the better way to say it. That way, no one mis-understands it.
 
#135
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

You know what it means-good hits are not the product of speed, they're the product of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control. And, even though execution of the firing task may be faster with a semi; fast does not cover poor marksmanship.
 
#136
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know what it means-good hits are not the product of speed, they're the product of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control. And, even though execution of the firing task may be faster with a semi; fast does not cover poor marksmanship. </div></div>

Very well put!!!
 
#137
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Someone posted a few back...I'm too tired and lazy to find it...about recoil management being big in this game (Stang). I think Stang or any timed event where it isn't a given you have plenty of time that recoil management is important. Just because it isn't as 'important' on another shoot doesn't mean it isn't important. It's always good to get into, and use, those good habits.
 
#138
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know what it means-good hits are not the product of speed, they're the product of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control. And, even though execution of the firing task may be faster with a semi; fast does not cover poor marksmanship. </div></div>

Several years ago Jeff Cooper issued a challenge called 20/20/20 which required the shooter to put 20 rounds on a 20" target in 20 seconds at 1000 yards. The challenge as he envisioned it never materialized but several people have actually done it. Dave Lauck was the first person to surpass Jeff Cooper’s 20-20-20 challenge. This challenge was considered the 4 minute mile of marksmanship.
 
#139
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone posted a few back...I'm too tired and lazy to find it...about recoil management being big in this game (Stang). I think Stang or any timed event where it isn't a given you have plenty of time that recoil management is important. Just because it isn't as 'important' on another shoot doesn't mean it isn't important. It's always good to get into, and use, those good habits. </div></div>

Yes, I mentioned the importance for recoil management in an earlier post.
 
#140
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone posted a few back...I'm too tired and lazy to find it...about recoil management being big in this game (Stang). I think Stang or any timed event where it isn't a given you have plenty of time that recoil management is important. Just because it isn't as 'important' on another shoot doesn't mean it isn't important. It's always good to get into, and use, those good habits. </div></div>

Yes, I mentioned the importance for recoil management in an earlier post. </div></div>

Ah it was you. Sorry, I spent the day walking around in snowshoes in about 8 in of new/drifted snow on top of about 12" already. It wore me out. I thought what a pita, but it was a lot worse without them.

So, to reiterate, you bring up a good point about watching your posture even when it's easy to shoot. That way you don't get behind the curve, when doing something like Stang or a fast timed event, having to recover from recoil. It's easy to say when you come apart after a shot on a no/slow timed event that you'll watch that next time. In this you realize just how important it is. Next time is the valuable seconds it just cost you.
 
#141
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

20-20-20 is pretty stout, as that happens to be the size of the 1000 long range target and I only know a few folks that have cleaned that target. I have, and its not easy...but then, we are shooting that over about 10-14 minutes during slow fire, with irons, off slings, so not the same as I suspect the folks trying this are going to be using scopes, bipods, etc...etc. Either way, no easy feat at 1000....but I guess it might help running high BC stuff, and the other gadgets....most of my 1000 yard stuff is Palma rifle and 155s. Not exactly high BC stuff!

Yeah, I can see that as the "4 minute mile" of sorts.

John
 
#142
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Does anyone in the US make or sell a target like they were using in the Norwegian competition? The red hit indicators swinging out were really trick.
 
#143
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Just getting around to watching this, and I'm super impressed! I'm a LONG way off from ever being that good, LOL. Just got done watching the shooter who used a G3 and made all 16 of his hits within the center "ring" of the target within the 25 second limit. Even the guys with the race guns had shots off the target. This is great stuff, though. I'm only half way through it, haha. helps pass the time while I do laundry.
smile.gif
 
#144
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

The main thing about the stang seems to be the following

1st they are all using 308's by the looks so that might be a specific thing to keep in mind about recoil.
The military guys are wearing webbing and issued slings without shooting jackets.
the target guys are using correct shooting slings and jackets.
rifles must be reloaded after 5 shots
also only open sights may be used
the hits on the targets are only counted.

so the things to be comparing are an AR10 type platform in 308 in a target sling against the bolt gun also in 308 with the same shooter trying the drill out. no bipods no 223's it needs to be accurate but a good semi auto can and will beat a bolt gun in medium ranges for shots on target but at extended ranges the fundamentals invulved eat up the semi auto's advantage as you have to make running calculations on wind drift and enviromental factors you may as well use a bolt gun.

now if it was load up any rifle with any sight system and shoot the stang a 30 or 40 round mag on an AR would cream it but it is not what is happening.

as Frank has showed a semi auto platform can be as accurate as a bolt action but he also states how the semi verses bolt actions are both great for diferent uses.

the sighting systems on the G3's are crap and no where as accurate as the target sights then the slings are crap and having to shoot in webbing changing a 20 round mag after 5 shots realy eats time. the saur rifles are very quick to change mags the G3 takes a lot longer and eats into the semi's advantage and the bolt guns acuracy helps with hits on targets and that is what counts.

it looks like a great comp though.

The thing that cracks me up is that tool from future weopons comparing the rem model 70 to a suppressed AR10 type rifle saying how quick the Ar based rifle was to shoot compared to the rem based rifle. he was slow to reload the rem removing his cheek when cycling the bolt and the supressor works as a muzzle break if their was an unbiased top quality shooter using both and having a supressor on the model 700 the times would be a lot closer but the AR10 based rifle would have still won the 5 shot swinging target evaluation but not by as much.

we have to compare apples to oranges.

the other thing is that civilian shooters are peobably not alowed to own and use AR10's so they cant make race guns up for the Stang and the limitations on the soldiers are limiting their results.
 
#145
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

One interesting fact about Norway’s shooting matches is that they are partly funded by the Norwegian government. On the Firing Line Forum, member UltimaThule noted that: “The National Rifle Assn. of Norway receives financial support from the Department of Defence — 1/10 of one per cent of the National defence budget. What would your anti-gun people say if the American NRA got $560 million dollars a year from the government?”
 
#146
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One interesting fact about Norway’s shooting matches is that they are partly funded by the Norwegian government. On the Firing Line Forum, member UltimaThule noted that: “The National Rifle Assn. of Norway receives financial support from the Department of Defence — 1/10 of one per cent of the National defence budget. What would your anti-gun people say if the American NRA got $560 million dollars a year from the government?”
</div></div>

Vinc, we used to have that here.... The National Matches under the old Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) at Camp Perry were funded by the US Army. Anybody could walk in off the street, be handed a rifle and ammo and shoot the matches, no charge. Been that way since 1903.

Timeline.... 1993 +/-. Executive Order by Prezidente "Slick Willy" Clinton de-funds the DCM, basically abolishing it. May he rot in 2nd Amendment hell.

Thanks to some seriously good guy conservatives in Congress, a Congressionally Chartered replacement organization was immediately formed.... the ODCMP (Office of the Directorate of the Civilian Marksmanship Program). Unfortunately, no federal funding was possible under the Congressional Charter. It must be self sufficient to operate. Rifles and ammo are still available from US Army inventory, but must be sold, not given away. Matches and programs also incur entry fees.

Today, M1 rifles, '03 Springfields, and some milsurp .22's are still available for purchase by members of CMP affiliate clubs. M2 ammo is available as well.
The CMP's website is: Civilian Marksmanship Program website

I have purchased numerous M1's from them over the last 10 years. Great rifles.

By the way.... re bolt guns vs. semi-autos....
With a bolt gun you can shoot as fast as you want. You don't have to wait for the action to cycle.
laugh.gif


Also BTW, if you've ever been to an NRA Across the Course match and watched the bolt gunners in the rapid fire stages, you'll see them crank the bolt with the same speed the Norwegion competitors demonstrated in the video. Same techniques pretty much.

Best to all,
Swampy@JLK
 
#147
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the sighting systems on the G3's are crap and no where as accurate as the target sights
...
the other thing is that civilian shooters are peobably not alowed to own and use AR10's so they cant make race guns up for the Stang and the limitations on the soldiers are limiting their results.
</div></div>

I wouldn't call G3 sights "crap". Actually they're quite good, and sight radius is reasonable.

And yes, there's a lot of civilians with semiauto AR-10s in Norway. There would be even more, if Major PF scoring would be a feasible option in IPSC.
 
#148
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jthyttin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the sighting systems on the G3's are crap and no where as accurate as the target sights
...
the other thing is that civilian shooters are peobably not alowed to own and use AR10's so they cant make race guns up for the Stang and the limitations on the soldiers are limiting their results.
</div></div>

I wouldn't call G3 sights "crap". Actually they're quite good, and sight radius is reasonable.

And yes, there's a lot of civilians with semiauto AR-10s in Norway. There would be even more, if Major PF scoring would be a feasible option in IPSC.</div></div>
I have to say I really like the factory G3 sight. When you get the ring of light around the front ring you get a very good sight alignment
 
#150
Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I have not gone through all this occasionally erudite thread, but thought I would add my own anecdotal observation.

About six years ago I took a seven day precision rifle class at Gunsite. On the final day there was a shoot off. As I remember, we were shooting poppers at 200 or 300 yards prone. As I further remember this was a four round string (I know i did not reload). I was shooting a stock LTR and the guy I was up against had an HK PSG-1. Both of us were trained up after six days continually behind the gun. In the end I was faster with the LTR and prevailed.

My .2 €
 
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