Bolt won't close on reloads .308

Darkside-Six

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  • Oct 8, 2013
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    Michigan.
    I'm having a problem with some handloads. I can push the bolt almost all the way in but it wont close down.
    I have a batch of Lake city LR brass that I picked up. Full length sized them all and I"m still having the same issue.

    They are all trimmed to 2.01 +/- .005 I load to a COAL of 2.85

    I'm having the issue only with this batch. I have some other LC LR brass that I fired from some M118LR and have reloaded a few times and had no issues.

    This is really starting to frustrate me. From everything I've seen i'm guessing that the shoulders need to be bumped back but i'm not sure how to do that. My FL sizing die is all the way down touching the shell plate and they still will not chamber.

    Any thoughts?
     
    If you have a case available that you did the same steps to, try that in the chamber to see if it will close. If you don't have a case, then pull a bullet out of one that doesn't close and see if it will close on just the case. You need to determine if it's the case that's the problem or a bullet seating issue.

    I had a situation once where I couldn't screw my sizing die in far enough to push the shoulder back. I ended up removing a couple thousands of an inch from the top of the shell holder.
     
    Also, measure the bottom of the case body. Not very likely, but sometimes the bases get blown out and need a small base die. Just going through the motions here
     
    long time lurker.. first post.. had to start some time..

    Darkside, I don't have the answer but I have had the same issue Rem brass.

    When I pulled the bullet the empty shell would chamber and often if I rotated the loaded round 90 degrees in the breach they would be ok.
    I marked some of them with pen and only place with scuff was one side of projectiles. Seems they were not very concentric in the case or maybe its a neck thickness issue (have not turned any yet).

    I have not done accurate tests or measurements, so could also be shoulder, I have another set of dies I will try.

    308W AOL 2.85 FL resized, very long throat Rem 700 SPS so no where near lands at 2.99inches

    hope this helps
     
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    it's not the bullet seeding. I loaded rounds with my old brass and it worked fine. the batch of brass i'm talking about will not even load the cartridge after resizing so that's what has got me thinking that the shoulder needs bumped back more. I have heard of people taking a few thousandths off the bottom of their die to make it work. I also saw one of these that I think could fix the problem. Redding Small Base Full Length Sizer Die 308 Winchester
     
    it's not the bullet seeding. I loaded rounds with my old brass and it worked fine. the batch of brass i'm talking about will not even load the cartridge after resizing so that's what has got me thinking that the shoulder needs bumped back more. I have heard of people taking a few thousandths off the bottom of their die to make it work. I also saw one of these that I think could fix the problem. Redding Small Base Full Length Sizer Die 308 Winchester

    Yep, the small base die will work.

    I imagine this is for plinking ammo. If you are loading for precision it's a better idea to use one brand of brass and of the same lot number.
     
    Hello , I had that issue before when I first bought on websites my lc brass once time fire , some are good after trim , ful resize , but fews doesn't matter what I try they not chamber ( only cassing , I alway check this be fore go seating ) I make my decision bought me small base fulsize , resize and they chamber now , all I need 1 time for those , after my fire they all reform to my gun , I not expert , this just what I did been thoughts , may is it helpful
     
    Try screwing the die an additional 1/8 to 1/4 turn increments to get the shoulder pushed back more.

    That brass could have more "spring back" than other brass you've used?

    t's screwed all the way down. can't go any further.

    Not to be a jerk, but maybe get some new brass??? Sounds like too much bullshit for me. Anything where I've got to "alter" any of my reloading gear gets chunked.

    The brass that I load with, Lake City LR (long Range) brass is very difficult to find, aside from actually buying M118LR and firing thru it.

    Yep, the small base die will work.

    I imagine this is for plinking ammo. If you are loading for precision it's a better idea to use one brand of brass and of the same lot number.

    No, it's not for plinking. I think it was just sized specifically for another rifle. Since it's so hard to find I picked it up. I've never had an issue with using different lot numbers as far as accuracy. I have 500 pieces of this so it's worth the $40 to pick up that die as it should work.
     
    Here's what I would try.....not necessarily in the order listed......also make sure primers are fully seated

    Small base die
    Make sure your die is not worn. This happened to me, and it turned out my RCBS die was worn. New die fixed it.
    Better die, like a Redding Bushing die. It will bump your shoulder back enough if that's the issue
    New brass like Lapua
     
    I fit was fired through a MG, they usually have larger chambers and you will never get it back to spec for a bolt rifle. I would measure it at the base and use a case gauge to check the shoulder. As already noted, mark a sized case with a sharpie, that will tell you where it is too big. Just a case not loaded to start. If it chambers, it is your bullet touching, do the same with a loaded round with a sharpie. If it still doesn't fit, scrap it, it's not worth all the effort. Buy some good brass (Lapua), load it and shoot.
     
    I cannot even imagine reloading without measuring everything.
    Without measuring you are just guessing.
    Calipers, Hornady headspace, OAL, bullet comparator just to name a few.


    ^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^ find someone who can correctly measure your cases with the correct tools. This will tell what exactly is going on and what you should do to fix it. 90% of the time, it's operator error by not setting the F/L die correctly to proper shoulder bump. There is a small chance the F/L die isn't sizing the base of the case down to .470". I once had a Steyr SSG 69 that needed the case bases to be sized to .468" to chamber. A Redding Small Base body die fixed it.

    We are all just guessing as to what your issue may be.
     
    It's screwed all the way down. can't go any further.

    Actually, you can.
    Reloading presses flex, and even if your die is contacting the shell holder when you actuate the press without a case, cases that have work hardened can spring the press even more.
    Stubborn cases may require the die run in another 1/8 or 1/4 turn.
    At least that's my experience.
     
    First step, get the Hornady headspace kit to measure how much bump you have made as if you don't have one, it's a valuable tool to have for a reloader. Do that before you go out and buy new dies or start screwing with anything else.
     
    If you don't already have one - get an RCBS Precision Mic.

    RCBS PRECISION MIC CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE TOOL | Sinclair Intl

    Buy a box of factory ammo with brass cases, fire them in your bolt gun. Save the cases and record their measurements from the Precision Mic. Now run the die down and then run a piece of your LC brass through and mic it. This will give you baseline. You need to use a fresh piece of brass every time you make an adjustment to the die. Once you think you're matched up, run 10 pieces and check the average.
     
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    I have a bunch of IVI Canadian military brass .I had to anneal the cases and lube generously to get the shoulders to set back right .This brass is very heavy and I guess takes extra care when sizing to make sure they fit .
     
    L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 308 Winchester

    Tools like these are invaluable for solving riddles like this one. I hardly ever use it, but when I need it there's no substitute.


    I had one of those but somehow misplaced it. as you said you hardly used it so I just brushed it off and FL sized my new batch of brass.

    I just ordered one of those last night along with the Redding Short based resizing die that I mentioned earlier. Most everybody I talked to feels that that die should work. If not then I'll just chuck all the brass and not worry about it any longer.
     
    A while back I was having a similar problem and it turned out to be the chamber was extremely dirty to the point where I had to use JB compound and several patches. It looked like coal coming out. It wasn't like I never cleaned the chamber but what I did was improperly clean the chamber. Just wiping it out isn't enough, you need a good chamber brush and use it regularly.
     
    No two resizing dies are the same, you could have several dies in the same caliber and each one would bump the shoulder back a different amount, we also live in a plus and minus manufacturing world. Meaning you might have a "plus" resizing die and a "plus" shell holder, the simple fix for this is to lap the top shell holder on some sandpaper and remove a few thousandths. You also have military brass "fire formed" in a different chamber and when this brass is resized it tries to "spring back" to its original shape. You can try and adjust your dies to make hard contact with the shell holder with the press reaching cam over and pausing at the top of the ram stroke. Pausing at the top of the ram stroke for three seconds or more reduces the amount of brass spring back. This will also give you more uniform and consistent shoulder bump measurements, pausing lets the brass know who is the boss and to stay put after sizing.

    Second you can try small base dies, every piece of once fired military brass I get my hands on is resized once with a small base die to bring the brass back to minimum dimensions. This is because military chambers are larger in diameter and longer in headspace than standard SAAMI chambers. But remember a small base die is "NOT" shorter in cartridge headspace length and is only smaller in base diameter and sizes further down the case. Meaning you need to find out if your cases are too fat or too long and work from there.

    Third, get the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge, it fits all calibers and you only need to buy "ONE" case gauge and not one for each caliber. Until you get a micrometer and vernier calipers you will not have accurate means of checking your fired and resized cases.

    Below for comparison are .308 and a 7.62 Nato chamber measurements for a M14 rifle, and remember a machine gun will be even larger in diameter and longer in head space and this effects the spring back rate when resized.

    183911_zps5aff5dc9.jpg



    If you want uniformity and accuracy then buy one brand of brass and only fire it in "YOUR" chamber, each brand/type of brass will have different internal case capacities and mixed brass will give you "mixed" accuracy results. If your going to use once fired military brass or range pickup brass then you will have "mixed" resizing results and varying internal case capacities. (Meaning good for short range blasting ammo in rifles like the AR15)

    Below a fired case from my AR15 carbine.

    headspacegauge005_zps20685e73.jpg


    And below is the same case that has been full length resized with .003 shoulder bump.

    headspacegauge004_zps4465b7bc.jpg


    Get yourself a set of vernier calipers and the Hornady gauge, and stop guessing at your problems.

    We live in a plus and minus world and each of the .223/5.56 dies below will bump the shoulder of the case back a different amount and squeeze the case to a different diameter after sizing. When you start using mixed once fired brass then all bets are off on what you will end up with.

    dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg


    My Wilson case gauges were retired after getting the Hornady gauge.

    gauge002_zpsd2792ffa.jpg


    I only use them now for paper weights and pen holders. (engaging humor)

    penholder_zps4213e7d3.jpg
     
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    +1 what Steve123 said.

    Small base die should cure the problem. Same thing happened to me when I went to use .308 brass from a rifle that I used to own in a new .308 (chambered by a different smith). Small base die fixed the problem. Only need to use it once, as from that time forward a regular sizing die works just fine.


    Jeffvn
     
    L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 308 Winchester

    Tools like these are invaluable for solving riddles like this one. I hardly ever use it, but when I need it there's no substitute.
    I couldn't agree more! I can't imagine setting up to reload any caliber without a proper case gage, Wilson's are some of the best. When one undertakes loading for a "new" round, when ordering your dies, a case gage should always be ordeedr at the same time, this type of thing could have been avoided. If all measures well with the case gauge, but you still have the problem, look at your primer seating depth, if all still checks out, triple check that you are not "jam" seating to the extent the bolt won't close, if this still isn't a problem, clean your chamber.
     
    L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 308 Winchester

    Tools like these are invaluable for solving riddles like this one. I hardly ever use it, but when I need it there's no substitute.

    Not to be a smart Ass, but there are more precise tools than the drop in Wilson style gauges. Like the Hornady gauge that bigedp51 shows in post #27. The wilson gauges will get you within the .005" SAAMI specs step in the gauge and are better than no gauge. The downside to the Wilson gauge is if you get a slightly bent or tweaked rim, they will not allow the case to drop in even though the case body and shoulder has been resized properly. Other gauges that are similar are the Mo gauge, RCBS Precision Mic, Innovative Techonologies digital headspace, Forster datum dial, Sinclair bump gauge, Harrels or Whidden bump collars, Redding instant indicator, etc. They will all give a precise measurement.

    The Hornady gauge will give you precise measurements of shoulder bump. As bigedp51 shows in the photos, you can take a fired case from your rifle and set your die to bump the shoulders back the precise amount you want.

    I used the Wilson type gauges for many years, but when I bought the Hornady gauge (bought it when it was the Stoney Point gauge) a whole other World opened up, the light bulb went off in the Brain. With the Hornady gauge, I could now precisely measure the shoulder bump and actually see the EXACT numbers on my caliper where my rifles will or will not chamber a case. This style of gauge makes it very easy to figure out shoulder bump / resizing.

    I now have notes on all of my rifles indicating the amount of shoulder length from fired cases and have notes showing minimum shoulder bump to have cases chamber. I reload for about 12 different rifle calibers. For about $45.00, I get a set of gauges that measure the shoulder bump on all of my calibers and then some. The Wilson gauges are about $30.00 for one caliber.

    I do keep the wilson drop in gauges around for occasional checking ammunition since bought them many years ago, but I've found I use the Hornady set most of the time. I also have a set of the Sinclair bump gauges, but I have a slight preference for the Hornady set.
     
    quote_icon.png
    Originally Posted by Darkside-Six
    It's screwed all the way down. can't go any further.



    Actually, you can.
    Reloading presses flex, and even if your die is contacting the shell holder when you actuate the press without a case, cases that have work hardened can spring the press even more.
    Stubborn cases may require the die run in another 1/8 or 1/4 turn.
    At least that's my experience.


    +1, screw sizing die down 1/8+ and resize some brass. Nothing to lose, cheap move.
     
    Flt762-The Wilson gauge will tell you to less that .001.
    Drop case into gauge, and on the max side of the case. Using the 'tail' of your dial calipers you measure down to the case head.
    IMHO-The Wilson gauges are the best made and most consistent in QC.
    LG

    Thank you for your insight. I am aware you can use the tail of the caliper, I tried it, didn't work too well for me. I prefer a gauge that gives a firm measurement. Glad it works for you.
     
    Thank you for your insight. I am aware you can use the tail of the caliper, I tried it, didn't work too well for me. I prefer a gauge that gives a firm measurement. Glad it works for you.

    Been work'n with calipers for 45+ years and that may be part of it.
    I did build a stand with a dial 'finger' indicator, that does the same for measuring this spec. with the case gauge.
    Your 'rite' in use'n what works and repeats the best for you--
    LG
     
    I suppose I'll chime in as I have had this problem twice and found solutions not listed above.


    First time: Trying to keep from trimming my brass every reload, I tried running brass all the way to the 2.015 spec. Turns out my rifle will not chamber any brass longer than 2.008

    Second time: New bullets with a cannelure. Seated to spec (cannelure groove) and set my seating die to crimp per the mfs's instructions. Crimped bullets=wont load, uncrimped=load. So I don't bother to roll crimp any rounds any more.
     
    I'm having a problem with some handloads. I can push the bolt almost all the way in but it wont close down.
    I have a batch of Lake city LR brass that I picked up. Full length sized them all and I"m still having the same issue.

    They are all trimmed to 2.01 +/- .005 I load to a COAL of 2.85

    I'm having the issue only with this batch. I have some other LC LR brass that I fired from some M118LR and have reloaded a few times and had no issues.

    This is really starting to frustrate me. From everything I've seen i'm guessing that the shoulders need to be bumped back but i'm not sure how to do that. My FL sizing die is all the way down touching the shell plate and they still will not chamber.

    Any thoughts?

    I had a .308 barreled las summer and tried to use my brass that had been fired in my previous .308. Would not chamber no matter how much I bumped the shoulder. Did a little investigating and discovered the brass was too big at the base and a conventional die would not squeeze it down enough. A Redding small based body die fixed the problem. Once the brass has been resized in the small based die and fire formed in my new barrel, the regular die or even neck sizing via Lee Collet die is working fine.

    John
     
    I had a .308 barreled las summer and tried to use my brass that had been fired in my previous .308. Would not chamber no matter how much I bumped the shoulder. Did a little investigating and discovered the brass was too big at the base and a conventional die would not squeeze it down enough. A Redding small based body die fixed the problem. Once the brass has been resized in the small based die and fire formed in my new barrel, the regular die or even neck sizing via Lee Collet die is working fine.

    John

    I had the same issue that I described in post #16. O/P, It wouldn't be a bad idea to do some measuring at the base of your brass that will not chamber to see what your F/L die is squeezing the base size to. You need an a mic to do this or a caliper that is accurate. In my situation, any brass with a body size above .468.5" would not chamber. I had a RCBS small base die that wouldn't quite do it. I put in a call to Redding and I was told their small base die would get the base sized to .468". I bought a small base body die and Redding was right. Their small base die did it.

    Your issue is either the base not being sized enough or the shoulder is not being bumped back enough. That L/R brass you bought may have been fired through a M-14 and not a bolt gun. You need to do some measuring.
     
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    Oh my. Now remember, I'm a cheap bastard, so I'm going to offer cheap diagnostic tools, and cheap fix-its. First, get you one of those loaded rounds that won't allow the bolt to close, and rub it down with some rubbing alcohol. Now, get a black permanent marker and mark that whole thing up, top to bottom.

    CAREFULLY, ever so gingerly, SLOWLY, insert that blacked up round into your chamber and attempt to close the bolt. Once you feel resistance, "jiggle" that bolt a little, up and down. Now, slowly extract that round, making sure it doesn't bounce around inside your loading port as the ejector finds clearance!

    Look for shiny spots. Do you see compression or shiny marks on the body/shoulder junction? Do you see shiny marks at the mouth? Do you see shiny spots along the ogive of the projectile?

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you're likely going to see shiny spots at the shoulder. Don't get all bumbed out.

    LC brass is hard. It can be thick too. It can be more difficult to resize this stuff than other brass. You will notice that as you change your case lube, it WILL affect the amount which the case shoulder is "pushed back". More lube (within reason) will usually cause more "push-back" of the shoulder. But, lube ain't your answer.

    IF the shoulder is the problem, the die might have been reamed just a LITTLE long. Fear not. Have you got a belt sander or a grinder? All you need to do is EITHER take off a bit of material from the shell holder top (potentially weakening the shell holder) OR grinding down just a little of the die base. Now don't get nervous!

    The base of the die doesn't really do anything anyway. If you were to grind off 50/1000", your die would still function JUST fine. But, we don't want to grind off that much material. In fact, we only need to grind off about 0.010" to 0.015" or so. JUST A LITTLE. If, as you say, your bolt is closing, but the handle won't go all the way down, then you're right on the ragged edge of "goodness".

    Now, once you've either ground the die or the shell plate, debur it, and you'll find that the die is just fine.

    Set that die up such that it JUST pushes your shoulder back a few thou, with reasonable amount of lube. No reason to run it all the way down to the shell plate. Lock the ring down, and be happy for the rest of your life with that die.
     
    Like a number of the others, I found that a Redding small base BODY die allowed me to additionally shrink the case just above the base. It doesn't touch the neck of the case at all. This solved a similar problem I had with a semi-auto 308. I used this application where I didn't want to re-work the neck on already full length sized brass.
     
    If you are gonna pick up brass or use brass fired in another rifle you are gonna need a small base die...period.

    DPMS provided me with a case gauge when I bought my rifle. I remove the pins and remove the carrier and charging handle. When the brass will drop in the chanber with a "clink" and fall back out when I turn the upper straight up and down...it is sized just right.
     
    If you are gonna pick up brass or use brass fired in another rifle you are gonna need a small base die...period.

    That is just not true.
    I have only used my FL die without any problems.
    All my loads are sub MOA, no problems in/out.
    I do have a SB die but I have never needed to use it.
    It doesn't mean in some circumstances you may need it but certainly not "period".
     
    Here's what I would try.....not necessarily in the order listed......also make sure primers are fully seated

    Small base die
    Make sure your die is not worn. This happened to me, and it turned out my RCBS die was worn. New die fixed it.
    Better die, like a Redding Bushing die. It will bump your shoulder back enough if that's the issue
    New brass like Lapua

    Just out of curiosity, how many thousands of loads did it take to wear out that die?? I've got 40 years in one of my RCBS dies and it does just as good or better than the day I put it into service.
     
    If you are gonna pick up brass or use brass fired in another rifle you are gonna need a small base die...period.

    DPMS provided me with a case gauge when I bought my rifle. I remove the pins and remove the carrier and charging handle. When the brass will drop in the chanber with a "clink" and fall back out when I turn the upper straight up and down...it is sized just right.

    Do'n it your way - You can have excessive case headspace, and NOT know it.
    This 'case gauge' you speak of is just a fired case, Doesn't have a thing to do with reloading.
    This is a real case gauge--And how to use it.
    Wilson Headspace Gauge Cartridge Case Gage - YouTube
    LG
     
    Lumpy read my post again and try real hard to figure out what I am saying. Did I say anything about a fucking fired case. Every person that owns a godamned rifle owns a case gauge.
    Wilson should send you a check.

    Schulz you have a tight die, a loose chamber, or you don't pick up much range brass.
     
    Lumpy read my post again and try real hard to figure out what I am saying. Did I say anything about a fucking fired case. Every person that owns a godamned rifle owns a case gauge.
    Wilson should send you a check.

    Schulz you have a tight die, a loose chamber, or you don't pick up much range brass.

    Thank you for your kind remarks, and thoughtful insight along your excellent use of English----LOL
    "Every person that owns a godamned rifle owns a case gauge."
    Just cause a case falls into a chamber, doesn't mean it's sized 'rite'.
    BTW-Wilson just happens to make the best c'gauges on the market. Their quality, is all the 'check' I need.
    LG
     
    Just out of curiosity, how many thousands of loads did it take to wear out that die?? I've got 40 years in one of my RCBS dies and it does just as good or better than the day I put it into service.

    It happened to me after approx 500,000 reloads with my Dillon. It was a 9mm RCBS sizing die. I used to shoot competitively. This rifle stuff is very new to me. :eek:
     
    Guys, I ordered the Redding small based die. it will be here in 2 days and that should fix my problem. I'd like to point out that this is Lake City LR (long range) brass. I highly doubt it was fired out of a machine gun, but I could be wrong. I don't just pick up range brass, I use the exact same kind on every load. I just happened to purchase these from someone else so i'm guessing they were sized to his rifle. Guess we'll see in a few days but I appreciate all the input.