Boycott Cheaper than Dirt forever!!!

[Mike]

Price gouging is a made up term by a bunch of spineless politicians just like the ones causing this mess. "Price-gouging" is the "assault-rifle" of the current mess. Banning it makes them "feel good" as if they've "done something to fix the problem". If prices remain static, the item gets horded and it sells out instantly leaving a bunch of people who want the product unable to purchase except at a "gouged" rate on the secondary market.

If there is "price gouging" after a hurricane when prices get high, how could it be "inconsistent with a competitive free market"? Demand is higher after a disaster, such as a hurricane, yet supply remains static. Price must go up or it is, by definition, no longer a free market.

Kind of like when people get pissed at gun-control advocates/politicians for not knowing the difference between "clips" and "magazines" (and thus telling them they aren't qualified to comment on the topic), you guys don't know the difference between gouging and free-markets. Leave it to economists.

Hurricanes and natural disasters are REAL and cause REAL logistical problems, i.e. roads being closed. There can legitimately be a shortage of a needed item, i.e. bottled water.

Gouging on magazines, lowers, etc. which was caused by NOTHING but PANIC and not any true legislation is not necessary and serves only create animosity.

 

[Cobracutter]

So after a hurricane or tornado it is okay if a gas station chooses to charge $20 per gallon because they have it you need it, and the fact there are only limited places to get it has nothing to do with it.

And hate to tell you but not all economist agree with you,

By your definition the free market can rise up and remove the owner and take the gas, because the market wants it, he has it and because the government should say out of it, taking it is perfectly acceptable free market reaction.

Sure he offered it at $20 per gallon, but me and the "market" (the 100 people in line) decided we weren't gonna pay for it at all.

Frank,

Respectfully, It is Ok for them to charge whatever they want. Ignoring the fact that the markets should be able to operate freely, There are very good reasons why a station should and be able to rasie their prices. Lets use a hurricane as an example.

1. After the event, supply is most likley going to be an issue. With a reduction of the supply, you cannot assume the same supply/demand is in effect. Now the gas station owner does not know when or how much he will get in his next fuel delivery, if he gets one. If he keeps the prices the same, then he will sell out quickly. All things being equal, he will get cleaned out quick. That does not take into account people who will go and buy large ammounts to hedge against long supply issues. Since he is now sold out, people who really need fuel are up shits creek.

2. If he were to raise his prices from $5 to $20 a gallon, he would signal that the supply is not meeting demand. It would ensure that people who REALLY need gas and are willing to pay $20/g are still able to purchase it. It keeps people who just want to stock up (rings a bell with pmags?) from buying up the stock and either hoarding or reselling at a higher price for their own personal profit.

3. The business owner is there to make money, plain and simple. Profit idealy is correlated to risk and exposure + labor. If it was my gas station, and the state/gov told me I had to continue selling my gas at artificaly lower prices, with no certaintly of a resupply, and considering the fact that my area was just devistated, I would close the doors. Why would I Buy a generator, pay for fuel to run it, run a shop while my family is home without power/water/gas/ect, so I can sell people who did not prepare cheap fuel after the fact? Piss on that.

4. If he prices his fuel above what people are willing to pay, he assumes the burden that he won't sell it. His price will adjust based on demand as it does in every industry within a free market. We do not need the government to interfere with free commerce and transactions where both parties are willing participants. EVERY price control measure by the government has either had a negitive net effect to that system or unintended consequences that any price saving for you, pale in compariosn.

5. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say rise up and take the gas from the owner. That is both illegal and exactly what the free market is against. No where did anyone say anything about stealing, as that is similar to what the government is doing when they place price controls on somone. So are you saying that becuse 100 pissed off people want shit for cheap, that the owner should just pander to them? Not sure what you are saying here.

The same ideas translate to any product or service. Would you rather buy a $100 bottle of water while you are dying of thirst or all the Sold out $1 bottles?

One last point, Just beacuse you "need" something, does not make you entitled to it. If you "Need" it then you should have either prepared or been willing to pay the current market value for it. Needs and wants are very different.

 

[-=boone=-]

es and No Mike, I'll explain. BTW I'm removing all emotion from my response.

Sure it does, they are just not enforcing it... but every piece is in place.

The National Event, that cause a change in the climate.

The Fact that prices were increased overnight cause a supply side problem.

That is exactly this line in the definition This rapid increase in prices occurs after a demand or supply shock

Supply Shock, because of a single event. In this case it was two events, the election and then the shooting happening so close to each other. In 2A terms a National Disaster.

Thank you, you answered the way I had hoped someone would.

Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. This rapid increase in prices occurs after a demand or supply shock: examples include price increases after hurricanes or other natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.

The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property. In jurisdictions where there is no such crime, the term may still be used to pressure firms to refrain from such behavior

The last paragraph should give everyone pause, not the first. Specifically "equipment needed to preserve life, limb, and property." Does this extend to our 2 rights? One should hope so, but this has never happened before. Price gouging was started for food, water, fuel, and building materials. To state we are in a 2A National Disaster while true, and whole heartily agree. It is not a National disaster like a flood or hurricane. However I believe that to be able to preserve one’s life and property one needs a gun.

Now if we were going by gouging then one would have to take a look at the feds, buying 7 billion rounds is creating a monopoly on the economy and purposely drying up the supply. Why isn't anyone screaming about that?

CTD is a little fish in a big pond, that I do not support.

 

[milo 2.0]

Sorry for the shitstorm everyone. It's not my mo to even tell someone to FO even though I'm more than adept at it.

I'd just had it with him telling every one who disagreed with him they were stupid.
I was proud of the name change though!

 

[Cobracutter]

Sorry for the shitstorm everyone. It's not my mo to even tell someone to FO even though I'm more than adept at it.

I'd just had it with him telling every one who disagreed with him they were stupid.
I was proud of the name change though!

There are respectufull ways of countering ones opinion. Any abrasiveness I have shown was in response to posters like you who resort to name calling and childish remarks. How about you counter my arguement with logic and reason. I am more than willing to listen to others opinions when they are well thought out and delivered. I am not perfect and am always learning. Maybe you can present an idea or perspective that has not been considered yet, and help change others opinion. If you want to discuss this in PM's, let me know.


Making wild statements based on ignorance and emotion is the last thing the gun community needs. That is the tactic of the enemy, Logic and reasoning is how they will be defeated. Do not resort to scare tactics and rhetoric that anyone with an IQ over 80 can smell as bullshit.

 

[Lowlight]

So, in the Case of Sandy, no power, winter and the only thing to supply heat it gas... who gets the gas and who doesn't ?
Only those with the money to afford $20 per gallon, the rest of the people the market says --- Too bad ?

Okay rise up take the gas and give him 5 cents a gallon, you haven't stole it you just adjusted the free market price.


Gouging is a term, it is commonly used term it is not meant to say, gouging gas in a winter hurricane is the same as artificially raising the price of the gun.

The point being and why the term works is, "the prices of guns and ammo were artificially inflated based on the "talk" of restrictions. Not much else.

Because the market reacted in panic to "talk" gun shops and some manufacturers ran their prices up to take advantage of the market. That advantage is what rates the use of the terms.

Understanding guns are not a need or commodity.

Metal didn't didn't increase in price, plastic didn't increase in price only the idea that you can't have it anymore if the politicians get their way.

Many shops and manufactures have not increased their prices because they recognize the unethical side of these actions. So they have maintained the status quo as they know it. And of course because of the panic their supply has decreased while the demand has rose.

But ethically speaking, which is what the term "gouging" points too... this was an artificially manufactured crisis, the same scare tactic is used by the NRA and helps fuels this... The emails that go to guys in states with no proposed legislation that say, "after NY, you're next unless you send us $20" its a scare tactic and not based in truth of the matter at the time.

But hurricanes, please, only the strong survive, only those who can afford $20 per gallon get heat ... this is where someone would say fuck off & die, I will just take yours rather than jeopardize my families safety because you want to charge $20 instead of $4

 

[tylerw02]

So after a hurricane or tornado it is okay if a gas station chooses to charge $20 per gallon because they have it you need it, and the fact there are only limited places to get it has nothing to do with it.

And hate to tell you but not all economist agree with you,

By your definition the free market can rise up and remove the owner and take the gas, because the market wants it, he has it and because the government should say out of it, taking it is perfectly acceptable free market reaction.

Sure he offered it at $20 per gallon, but me and the "market" (the 100 people in line) decided we weren't gonna pay for it at all.

Yes, those that disagree are called Marxists. They may disagree with policy for political reasons, but that doesn't change the governing laws of economics. A static supply, an increasingly high demand, and a static price=SHORTAGE. The first buyers will see a "bargain" and hoard it all---just as everybody that finds $12 P-Mags buys all they can because they perceive it as a deal. If you disagree with the law of economics, offer up 10 P-Mags out of your stash in the for sale section for $12.00 each as not to "gouge" and see how long they last. The hurricane doesn't solely cause a price increase. It causes a DEMAND increase. The increase demand increases the price.

The next step in government intervention is rationing. We all know how that works out as well.

Yes, it is ok for people to charge whatever they want. Its THEIR property.

No, the free market cannot rise up and remove the owner and take the gas. That is called theft.

Those that do without during disasters and crisis situations aren't owed anything by those that have means. Its the right thing to do to help your fellow man, but that doesn't relieve them their personal responsibility. I don't feel sorry for those that are rushing out for P-Mags any more than I feel sorry for those that don't have gas for their generators. I have plenty mags and I keep plenty of gas in the instance of a power outage. Its not that hard.

 

[Lowlight]

I say give him 5 cent a gallon instead of the $20 and call it "A Free Market Adjustment" ... if he can attempt to charge the market $20, the market can react in kind, it's a complex negotiation at that point. The bidding started at $20, the market decided on 5 cents.

And I hate to tell you, we had gas stations for many, many years, you don't own the gas in the tanks the gas company does, they would have to up the price to $20, not the owner. You can randomly decide what you are gonna charge, Shell decides that for you and gives you a market value which why all the gas station around are so close to each other in price.

Most of the time it's more a loan. But it is certainly not the "property of the owner" in fact many don't even own the buildings anymore

 

[tylerw02]

Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the premise, nor is it universal. Sure, it may be in some instances, but that doesn't change the local gas station down on the corner from here who is owned by the owner that pays for the gas in his tanks and sets his own price.

If the 5 cent gas is what the market calls for and the owner will not sell for less than $20, the owner plenty of gas. He either goes out of business or has to adapt to market adjustments. If he lowers it to $10, you better bet your ass that some of the 5 cent people will jump on it. Then there will be transactions.

Its like the two main gun shops here locally. One raised their prices to $30 per magazine and $2000 for ARs. They have guns to sell and are selling a few. They have constant customer flow and are paying their bills. The other shop didn't raise prices at all. Their shelves are bare and they are only manning the shop with one person rather than four or five. Their shop is virtually free of traffic.

Government is not the solution.

 

[milo 2.0]

There are respectufull ways of countering ones opinion. Any abrasiveness I have shown was in response to posters like you who resort to name calling and childish remarks. How about you counter my arguement with logic and reason. I am more than willing to listen to others opinions when they are well thought out and delivered. I am not perfect and am always learning. Maybe you can present an idea or perspective that has not been considered yet, and help change others opinion. If you want to discuss this in PM's, let me know.


Making wild statements based on ignorance and emotion is the last thing the gun community needs. That is the tactic of the enemy, Logic and reasoning is how they will be defeated. Do not resort to scare tactics and rhetoric that anyone with an IQ over 80 can smell as bullshit.

Childish, maybe, the play on your name, got your mother fucking attention, did it not? Mods also!!
Honestly you haven't said anything I disagree with, I'll even go as far as to say you're right. But your presentation, lacks a little tact. Most people when told their stupid, pretty much turn the speaker off.
Gouging is a term, for this there are better ones, but people have chosen " gouging" over the course of this last event, fucking deal with it. It's like clip for magazine, you understand their terminolgy, don't cut their nuts off for spite.

Hide members, let's find a different way to describe what we think is happening at the moment, gouging isn't really the correct term for it.
Let's call it "paying for overpriced shit".

One more thing, childish is hitting the notify button to have someone else regain your honor.

 

[Lowlight]

No government is not the solution but preventing Bob on the corner from charging $20 during a hurricane is what keeps Bob alive, if you doubt that you haven't been paying attention to history.

it only takes one person to kill Bob on the corner and your concepts are out the window. if I am on Staten Island with no heat, barely a house with Snow on the ground, cut off from the rest of the state because my car is in Long Island Sound along with my neighbors and you want to charge me and the two families I am huddled with $20 per gallon, I think you'd be short for this world and you idea that the "gas is yours" get your own or pay ... ain't gonna fly.

 

[Cobracutter]

I say give him 5 cent a gallon instead of the $20 and call it "A Free Market Adjustment" ... if he can attempt to charge the market $20, the market can react in kind, it's a complex negotiation at that point. The bidding started at $20, the market decided on 5 cents.

And I hate to tell you, we had gas stations for many, many years, you don't own the gas in the tanks the gas company does, they would have to up the price to $20, not the owner. You can randomly decide what you are gonna charge, Shell decides that for you and gives you a market value which why all the gas station around are so close to each other in price.

Most of the time it's more a loan. But it is certainly not the "property of the owner" in fact many don't even own the buildings anymore

So beacuse you did not prepare, you propose to just take what you want? Sounds like stealing to me. I guess if the economy collaspses too, you just plan on killing those who did prepare (no one is going to willingly give over supplys in a survival situation).

A gas station operating on credit is not the same as what you are saying. Virtualy every business and retailer is stocked based on items on credit with payment terms. Manufactures or distributors setting price controls is another disscustion all together, as that is related to the contractial arangement between businesses. While I was in college I worked for my uncle in the summers. He was one of a handfull of people/entites with the propper licencing from EPA and MDE (maryland dept of enviroment) to inspect gas stations. It was his bread and butter and we would unspect 2-4 a day. In the hundreds of stations we inspected, I saw prices all over the place. Two competing staitons may sell for the same price or one across the street could be .20 more. The stations pay a spot+ delivery price on the fuel based on when they buy it/gets delivered, not when they sell it. Most promenent stations would get multiple refuels per week , and some even daily/nighly. The fuel dist does not care what you charge, as long as you are paying your invoices. Any addional agreement between a dist/manuf and the retailer is an entirely different disccusion.

 

[Mike]

So beacuse you did not prepare, you propose to just take what you want? Sounds like stealing to me. I guess if the economy collaspses too, you just plan on killing those who did prepare (no one is going to willingly give over supplys in a survival situation).

The key word there is "survival". If it comes down to literal survival of me and more importantly my family you can call it what you want, I'm getting what I need.

 

[Cobracutter]

No government is not the solution but preventing Bob on the corner from charging $20 during a hurricane is what keeps Bob alive, if you doubt that you haven't been paying attention to history.

it only takes one person to kill Bob on the corner and your concepts are out the window. if I am on Staten Island with no heat, barely a house with Snow on the ground, cut off from the rest of the state because my car is in Long Island Sound along with my neighbors and you want to charge me and the two families I am huddled with $20 per gallon, I think you'd be short for this world and you idea that the "gas is yours" get your own or pay ... ain't gonna fly.

Murder and theft is already illegal. Thats the same thing as saying we need more gun laws to protect the children, ignoring that fact..... that murder is already illegal.

Tell that to the Koreans durring the Rodney King riots. Come try and take bobs gas, for all you know bob is an excellent marksman.

More laws and government interference is never the awsner. I am not sure if you are being serious or just trying to stir the debate.

 

[tylerw02]

That's Bob on the corner's decision to make---and to protect himself. Its not the role of government to control behavior to keep people from offending others. That slippery slope you're on is what is making certain political leaders mumble about confiscating and managing private IRAs and 401Ks to pay for those that are "less fortunate" much like what happened in Argentina. Its a very slippery slope you're on.

 

[tylerw02]

The key word there is "survival". If it comes down to literal survival of me and more importantly my family you can call it what you want, I'm getting what I need.

You'd murder innocents to survive? That could ultimately be your demise and end of your "survival".

 

[Mike]

You'd murder innocents to survive?

Are we going to define "survive"? Meaning death is eminent? Not, I ran out of beer and my neighbor has some. Then yes. If my family is literally starving to death due to circumstances well beyond anyone's control and it comes down to true survival, I will make sure my family survives or die trying.

 

[Cobracutter]

You'd murder innocents to survive? That could ultimately be your demise and end of your "survival".

Yea its ironc how people use words like morality and eithics in defense of price controls and "gouging" and at the same time advocate the murder of inncocents.

 

[Mike]

Yea its ironc how people use words like morality and eithics in defense of price controls and "gouging" and at the same time advocate the murder of inncocents.

When did I mention morality or ethics in defense of price control?

And if any of you say you would let your family starve and die whilst others had what you needed to prevent their deaths you are a liar. Granted, I took it to the extreme when I said "survival" but reality is it's easy for you to make claims from the comfort of your chair, but until you are in that exact situation you do not know what you would do. So refrain from you moral high horse and wake up to reality.

 

[ARP]

Semantics be damned, You can charge whatever you desire for a product and I have the right to not like it and also never forget who you are and the way I perceive you.

I will tell you that if my family was starving and the only way out of it was to kill and eat you then you are becoming T Bones and jerky.

 

[tylerw02]

Are we going to define "survive"? Meaning death is eminent? Not, I ran out of beer and my neighbor has some. Then yes. If my family is literally starving to death due to circumstances well beyond anyone's control and it comes down to true survival, I will make sure my family survives or die trying.

I think its pretty obvious what "survive" means. I submit mankind has survived centuries without gasoline.




ETA: I'm out of here, this is getting pretty far off topic and really isn't that important. We're moving further and further from individual liberty and more into "good for the collective" thinking. We shouldn't be arguing politics or religion here.

 

[Mike]

I think its pretty obvious what "survive" means. I submit mankind has survived centuries without gasoline.

I don't think it is easily defined, or at least to the same level universally. When it comes down to surviving there is no "innocents", there is only survival. The most base instinct of every animal on earth. What one will do to truly survive is not surprising and if you think you're immune, I can state with a fair amount of certainty you are not.

 

[tylerw02]

I don't think it is easily defined, or at least to the same level universally. When it comes down to surviving there is no "innocents", there is only survival. The most base instinct of every animal on earth. What one will do to truly survive is not surprising and if you think you're immune, I can state with a fair amount of certainty you are not.

Never said I wasn't immune to survival instincts. But I am immune to stooping to the level of killing somebody for not selling me gasoline cheaply enough for my liking that is unnecessary for my survival.

 

[Mike]

Never said I wasn't immune to survival instincts. But I am immune to stopping to the level of killing somebody for gasoline that is unnecessary for my survival.

You said the key word "unnecessary". As I readily admit that I took my example to the extreme, the situation which the gasoline dilemma exists can easily degrade into a survival situation.

 

[tylerw02]

You said the key word "unnecessary". As I readily admit that I took my example to the extreme, the situation which the gasoline dilemma exists can easily degrade into a survival situation.

Gasoline isn't necessary, only food, water, and shelter--and sometimes medical supplies. But the point is that Frank advocating "gouging" laws are to protect the safety of the gas station owner because people would unnecessarily kill him because they feel he isn't selling it cheaply enough. Anyway, I need to stay out of this one, I posted above that I was done, but I am now for sure. Have a good one, guys. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Cobracutter]

When did I mention morality or ethics in defense of price control?

And if any of you say you would let your family starve and die whilst others had what you needed to prevent their deaths you are a liar. Granted, I took it to the extreme when I said "survival" but reality is it's easy for you to make claims from the comfort of your chair, but until you are in that exact situation you do not know what you would do. So refrain from you moral high horse and wake up to reality.

I thought about this durring lunch, and considering instinct and survival mode, I would like to think I would not kill an innocent to save my own ass. Hunger and death is a powerful motivator, but really, is my life worth more than my neihbors? Have they done anything to harm me, and would they kill me.

I am not a religous man, and don't buy into it. That does not change the fact that a life is a life.

Would you slaughter your neihbors kids, so that your's could eat?

I would not want to live in a world where those were my options. I would rather die than have to live with the muder of innocent people on my conscience.

I'm also going to bow out of here. Thanks for the sharing of ideas.

 

[senna.bra]

Friends don't let friends buy from Cheaper than dirt. They are finished, I am not given them my business. EVER!

 

[Lowlight]

I don;t know where any of you live, but where I grew up I will explain the situation too you...

Hurricane Sandy happens, it is winter, you NEED gas for heat, there is no if, ands or buts about it.

Tyler has a gas station and we'll suspend disbelieve and say it's "gas mart" and not a Shell, so he says he "owns" the gas. He determines that instead of $4.50 per gallon he is gonna charge $10 per gallon so his neighborhood can run their generators for heat.

Enter local wise guy, he is gonna explain to Tyler that he can have $5 per gallon and he will get $5 per gallon, or he is gonna crack Tyler's head open. At this point tyler has a choice, get his head cracked open or agree to paying the local wise guy. Now if you don't think is how it will play out, I will tell you from experience this is absolutely what will happen to you. If they don't get pissed because their Mother lives in the neighborhood and just kills tyler for disrespecting his Mom. Take a Katrina like situation or anything else and you'll have Looting, etc. If you try holding on to your principals of Free Market your survival will be greatly reduced.

Now as far as government staying out...

You're saying,

No food safety
No airline safety,
No consumer protect, cause we all know businesses will do the right thing on their own.
No drug safety

The list of where the government helps us in our daily life is endless and necessary.

Name me one country in the world that operates in your magical way ? Where business are allowed to do what they want for the sake of profit alone and the government stays out because that is a free market. You need checks in place, and I have no problem with it.

 

[Cobracutter]

I don;t know where any of you live, but where I grew up I will explain the situation too you...

Hurricane Sandy happens, it is winter, you NEED gas for heat, there is no if, ands or buts about it.

Tyler has a gas station and we'll suspend disbelieve and say it's "gas mart" and not a Shell, so he says he "owns" the gas. He determines that instead of $4.50 per gallon he is gonna charge $10 per gallon so his neighborhood can run their generators for heat.

Enter local wise guy, he is gonna explain to Tyler that he can have $5 per gallon and he will get $5 per gallon, or he is gonna crack Tyler's head open. At this point tyler has a choice, get his head cracked open or agree to paying the local wise guy. Now if you don't think is how it will play out, I will tell you from experience this is absolutely what will happen to you. If they don't get pissed because their Mother lives in the neighborhood and just kills tyler for disrespecting his Mom. Take a Katrina like situation or anything else and you'll have Looting, etc. If you try holding on to your principals of Free Market your survival will be greatly reduced.

Now as far as government staying out...

You're saying,

No food safety
No airline safety,
No consumer protect, cause we all know businesses will do the right thing on their own.
No drug safety

The list of where the government helps us in our daily life is endless and necessary.

Name me one country in the world that operates in your magical way ? Where business are allowed to do what they want for the sake of profit alone and the government stays out because that is a free market. You need checks in place, and I have no problem with it.

You are coming off as a Statist. Many of do not want and do not need the government to protect us from ourselves. We are perfectly capable of protecting ourselves and determining which products meet our needs. Markets have a funny way of correcting these kind of issues. People arent going to buy food from places that make them sick, or fly planes that crash, or buy products from unsafe places (unless they deem the risk worth it) nor buy medication that will kill them. We have all these controls yet, People still die from food poisoning, People still die in place crashes, People still get killed by defective products, and people die everyday from drug reactions. Guess what else people die from everyday? Gun violence. Lets have the government strictly take away guns and only let us have what they deem as safe enough for us to have. Your statements are hypocritical. At this point, It's hard to know if you are being serious or sarchastic. I said I was done before, but now , it really is time to bow out of this thread. Cheers.

 

[Victory]

We don't have a true free market economy, we have a mixed market economy.

Cobracutter: You defending that a life is a life while having a CAB as your avatar is cracking me up. Maybe your CAB was earned by stern Un Action instead of actual Action.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

"price gouging" or not, economics class aside I feel they are shitheads taking advantage of the community that pays their bills, for this I feel as though they can gargle a cock, this is just my opinion so save the "free market" bullshit lecture. You have your opinion I have mine.

I couldn't have said it better myself

 

[tylerw02]

I don;t know where any of you live, but where I grew up I will explain the situation too you...

Hurricane Sandy happens, it is winter, you NEED gas for heat, there is no if, ands or buts about it.

Tyler has a gas station and we'll suspend disbelieve and say it's "gas mart" and not a Shell, so he says he "owns" the gas. He determines that instead of $4.50 per gallon he is gonna charge $10 per gallon so his neighborhood can run their generators for heat.

Enter local wise guy, he is gonna explain to Tyler that he can have $5 per gallon and he will get $5 per gallon, or he is gonna crack Tyler's head open. At this point tyler has a choice, get his head cracked open or agree to paying the local wise guy. Now if you don't think is how it will play out, I will tell you from experience this is absolutely what will happen to you. If they don't get pissed because their Mother lives in the neighborhood and just kills tyler for disrespecting his Mom. Take a Katrina like situation or anything else and you'll have Looting, etc. If you try holding on to your principals of Free Market your survival will be greatly reduced.

Now as far as government staying out...

You're saying,

No food safety
No airline safety,
No consumer protect, cause we all know businesses will do the right thing on their own.
No drug safety

The list of where the government helps us in our daily life is endless and necessary.

Name me one country in the world that operates in your magical way ? Where business are allowed to do what they want for the sake of profit alone and the government stays out because that is a free market. You need checks in place, and I have no problem with it.

I said I was finished, but I'll make one last post.

Now you're playing another game....

That's like saying until the department of education, nobody was educated. You're basing your argument on a false premise. Guess what? Before the government got involved in regulation, there were not things like safe food, educated people, safe drug, and consumer protection. They didn't magically exist by the grace of the Federal government. Obviously no economy is pure, but the most productive economies are those that have the least governance. The government that governs best is the one that governs least. Next you're going to tell me you support Bloomberg's soda ban because people can't be trusted to determine how much soda is appropriate for their cup. Knee-jerk reactions and uninformed legislators are the rule, not the exception.

Obviously, we're not going to agree. That's all good and well. We have fundamental ideological differences when it comes to the role of government and what individual liberty means.

Here are a few points that should be noted for anybody interested in free-market economics and the perils of price control:

http://www.masterresource.org/2012/12/price-gouging-research-areas/

ETA: Again, hoarding impulse comes up...sound familiar?

Listen to Frank when it comes to tactical shooting, listen to economists, not legislators when it comes to economics.

 

[Lowlight]

Sure until you get into the survival of the richest situation, where people then create monopolies and can control things.

This situation also created, the mafia, gangs, and groups that protected the poor on a local level to solve problems.

As noted above we don't live in a true Free Market economy and there is no such thing a true free market economy, you cannot name a single place on Earth this economist dream exists

 

[usmc02xx]

I think it is important that at least one location/store "price gouges." That way the really desperate have a chance to buy something. If someone really needs some ammo because they have none whatsoever, then $19 for a box of ammo sounds a LOT better than a sign that says $7.99 and "out of stock." I'm sure no one would be bitching if CTD had a great price with zero inventory...so how does that help someone with no ammo or mags at all? Are they supposed to say "well, that store is out of stock too but the important thing is they aren't price gouging even though my AR is a paperweight."

TADA! that is the crux of he matter. I ain't paying that shit and i don't like it. But if i didnt have ammo and that's the only place that did because they "gouged" then id pay it. So called gouging encourages people to cut back on use. Another example would be hotel rooms going to 500 a night when a hurricane comes in. The guy that comes in before you is less likely to get two rooms (1 for kids) at 500 a pop. so when you come in, yes you have to pay 500 but at least there is a room.

Water be worthless to a drowning man and priceless to a thirsty one.

 

[Tough Guy]

The free market can be nothing more than legalized price gouging. When grocery store prices go up cause gas prices went up you have a free market, but when gas prices go down and the prices in the grocery store stay the same your getting gouged. After all the gas prices going up in the first place is most likely because oil and gas company's know they can get away with the gouging.

 

[Victory]

Prices will remain as high as the market allows. If demand drops due to high prices, then the price will lower until demand comes back up. In a simple scenario with no outside influence it will always reach homeostasis. But like I said there is no true free markets and our "feelings" of what is fair gets legislated into regulations that wreak havoc on our system. Perfect example of this is the bailouts.


What’s wrong with price gouging?
By Jeff Jacoby

THERE WASN’T much Martha Coakley could do about the massive pipe break that left dozens of Greater Boston towns without clean drinking water over the weekend. So she kept herself busy instead lecturing vendors not to increase the price of the bottled water that tens of thousands of consumers were suddenly in a frenzy to buy.


“We have begun hearing anecdotal reports of the possible price gouging of store-bought water,’’ Coakley announced Sunday. “Businesses and individuals cannot and should not take advantage of this public emergency to unfairly charge consumers . . . for water.’’ Inspectors were being dispatched, “spot-checks’’ were being conducted, and “if we discover that businesses are engaging in price gouging,’’ she warned, “we will take appropriate legal action.’’

Governor Deval Patrick got into the act, too. He ordered the state’s Division of Standards to “closely monitor bottled water prices’’ in the area affected by the water emergency. “There is never an excuse for taking advantage of consumers,’’ he intoned, “especially not during times like this.’’

It never fails. No sooner does some calamity trigger an urgent need for basic resources than self-righteous voices are raised to denounce the amazingly efficient system that stimulates suppliers to speed those resources to the people who need them. That system is the free market’s price mechanism — the fluctuation of prices because of changes in supply and demand.

When the demand for bottled water goes through the roof — which is another way of saying that bottled water has become (relatively) scarce — the price of water quickly rises in response. That price spike may be annoying, but it’s not nearly as annoying as being unable to find water for sale at any price. Rising prices help keep limited quantities from vanishing today, while increasing the odds of fresh supplies arriving tomorrow.

It is easy to demonize vendors who charge what the market will bear following a catastrophe. “After storm come the vultures’’ USA Today memorably headlined a story about the price hikes that followed Hurricane Charley in Florida in 2004. Coakley hasn’t called anybody a vulture, at least not yet, but her office has dedicated a telephone hotline and is encouraging the public to drop a dime on “price gougers.’’

Before you drop that dime, though, consider who really serves the public interest — the merchant who boosts his price during a crisis, or the merchant who refuses to?

A thought experiment: A massive pipe ruptures, tap water grows undrinkable, and consumers rush to buy bottled water from the only two vendors who sell it. Vendor A, not wanting to annoy the governor and attorney general, leaves the price of his water unchanged at 69 cents a bottle. Vendor B, who is more interested in doing business than truckling to politicians, more than quadruples his price to $2.99.

You don’t need an economics textbook to know what happens next.

Customers descend on Vendor A in droves, loading up on his 69-cent water. Within hours his entire stock has been cleaned out, and subsequent customers are turned away empty-handed. At Vendor B’s, on the other hand, sales of water are slower and there is a lot of grumbling about the high price. But even late-arriving customers are able to buy the water they need — and almost no one buys more than he truly needs.

When demand intensifies, prices rise. And as prices rise, suppliers work harder to meet demand. The same Globe story that reported yesterday on Coakley’s “price-gouging’’ statement reported as well on the lengths to which bottlers and retailers were going to get more water into customers’ hands.

“Suppliers worked overtime, pumping up production at regional bottling facilities and coordinating deliveries,’’ reporter Erin Ailworth noted. Polar Beverages in Worcester, for example, “had emptied out its plant in the city last night and trucked in loads of water from its New York facility.’’

Letting prices rise freely isn’t the only possible response to a sudden shortage. Government rationing is an option, and so are price controls — assuming you don’t object to the inevitable corruption, long lines, and black market. Better by far to let prices rise and fall freely. That isn’t “gouging,’’ but plain good sense — and the best method yet devised for allocating goods and services among free men and women.

 

[bouvie]

Sure until you get into the survival of the richest situation, where people then create monopolies and can control things.

This situation also created, the mafia, gangs, and groups that protected the poor on a local level to solve problems.

As noted above we don't live in a true Free Market economy and there is no such thing a true free market economy, you cannot name a single place on Earth this economist dream exists

Hahaha! I don't know where you are from, but I'm from the Chicago area where we have a long history with both the Mafia and street gangs. Years ago it was the Italian mob, now we have black gangs, white gangs, mexican gangs, chinese gangs, russian gangs, etc., etc. And if you think for one second that they are there to protect the poor, then you literally have no clue. Zero. Not only do they not protect the poor, that is the group that they primarily prey upon. Criminals ALWAYS seek the weakest out and take advantage them, because they are the least likely to resist or have recourse to fight them.
Btw, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just setting the record straight.

 

[Mike]

Hahaha! I don't know where you are from, but I'm from the Chicago area where we have a long history with both the Mafia and street gangs. Years ago it was the Italian mob, now we have black gangs, white gangs, mexican gangs, chinese gangs, russian gangs, etc., etc. And if you think for one second that they are there to protect the poor, then you literally have no clue. Zero. Not only do they not protect the poor, that is the group that they primarily prey upon. Criminals ALWAYS seek the weakest out and take advantage them, because they are the least likely to resist or have recourse to fight them.
Btw, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just setting the record straight.

I believe what Lowlight meant was the original NY mafia families did protect the neighborhoods. Now it's a different story but let's look at the history of the mafia.

 

[Lowlight]

Hahaha! I don't know where you are from, but I'm from the Chicago area where we have a long history with both the Mafia and street gangs. Years ago it was the Italian mob, now we have black gangs, white gangs, mexican gangs, chinese gangs, russian gangs, etc., etc. And if you think for one second that they are there to protect the poor, then you literally have no clue. Zero. Not only do they not protect the poor, that is the group that they primarily prey upon. Criminals ALWAYS seek the weakest out and take advantage them, because they are the least likely to resist or have recourse to fight them.
Btw, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just setting the record straight.

Protect the poor is not really what I mean, at least not in a literal sense and is more of a way of the poor to equalize things, and being I have made people in my family I think I know a thing about how they operate.

My Dad's best man is in prison for 19, 55 gallon drums found with bodies inside... I used to get letters from Federal Prison when I was in boot camp from my uncles, so I have a clue.

it is local protection, and yes that protection comes at price, but it was how things were handled because you didn't go to the authorities.

They don't prey on the poor, gangs will for sure, but the mafia does not seek out the poor and prey on them, if you walk through the door, sure that favor may never end. But they don't look for you.

But I am well aware how they work, I grew up with them my whole life. During the 70's gas shortage I used to sit in a car at our gas station and open up a back door for them all to come in and get gas whenever they wanted. I could not even see over the dash. My job was to move it out of the way.

Street gangs are a different animal.... the point being, if you tried burning a neighborhood by tripling the price during a crisis, the consequences would be felt physically.

 

[MAGUA]

Protect the poor is not really what I mean, at least not in a literal sense and is more of a way of the poor to equalize things, and being I have made people in my family I think I know a thing about how they operate.

My Dad's best man is in prison for 19, 55 gallon drums found with bodies inside... I used to get letters from Federal Prison when I was in boot camp from my uncles, so I have a clue.

it is local protection, and yes that protection comes at price, but it was how things were handled because you didn't go to the authorities.

They don't prey on the poor, gangs will for sure, but the mafia does not seek out the poor and prey on them, if you walk through the door, sure that favor may never end. But they don't look for you.

But I am well aware how they work, I grew up with them my whole life. During the 70's gas shortage I used to sit in a car at our gas station and open up a back door for them all to come in and get gas whenever they wanted. I could not even see over the dash. My job was to move it out of the way.

Street gangs are a different animal.... the point being, if you tried burning a neighborhood by tripling the price during a crisis, the consequences would be felt physically.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2BSIR5FbayA?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Was this you

 

[JesseBB]

Same thing happens with the price of gas at your local service station. Buy or walk.

 

[Sgt. 0811]

WTF is going on in here? Are there people seriously defending CTD? Ar mags for 5 times the amount is gross. I just bought 5 P mags, new, for 100.00. Whatever the case, free market, high demand, doesn't matter does it? Yes, there is money to be made right now in the gun market but by screwing people? Sorry, I don't want any part of that. I am a business man but I will not screw people over for a buck! I do business honest, and I will not support a company that is blatantly screwing over people. Especially in this lifestyle. They want to treat their customers like that? Sorry but I am out. As a consumer I want to trust where I buy and not check around before I purchase and this little stunt says no way I can trust their prices as "cheaper than dirt" more like "treat you like dirt" I don't care if its legal, or moral, but what I care about is being treated well as a customer and that is certainly not it, not when there are ar mags out there for 20.00 a pop and will be for quiet some time, not to mention they are still being made.

 

[milo 2.0]

I'm going farther out on a limb here, I only know what CTD is doing by communication on this forum, I don't go to their website or get catalogs. I never have, nor will buy from them.

What irratates me more than this is hearing stories of local gun shop owners heading to Wal Mart and buying up stock to restock their shelves at 3 times the price. These are the people that need to be talked to and boycotted if need be, that's free enterprise in the worst form, not allowing someone to buy at a reasonable rate, when it was actually available to them.

To me, price is the bottom line for anything I buy, especially gun goods, availability second, convienence, no matter. If I need something today, it means I should have been ordering last week, plain and simple. I really don't buy off the shelf guns, or products, so a local gun store is something I can do without, now if I need a die decapping pin, yes I'll buy rather than postpone the operation for a week and a half.
And while I'm whining, distibutors and larger retail places shouldn't be dumping their inventory in one day to any one company, after an event like the Dec shooting. For all we know, CTD maybe is the outfit that cleaned out Brownell'a total mag inventory, hours after what happened. I do realize what a dream world I'm talking about here, but f**k. But we've seen it before, get with the program.

 

[hlee]

They are running ar15 mags for $99 which is apparently way out of line. But, ironically (or not considering their name), they had the best price I could find on m1 carbine 30 round mags (Korean, hard back) and they were in stock. I bought 5. There are a thousand vendors online. Buy what you need- at the price you can bear- from each of them. Prices move with demand. Same thing with gas prices. In a few months all of you swearing never to buy from CTD again will be looking over the fence saying "Damn those are some good prices. Too bad I won't buy from them any more." You will all look good without your noses...

 

[demolitionman]

You all realize a week or two ago CTD donated some massive amount like 100,000 dollars to the Second Amendment Fund. Their advertisements are all over the Glen Beck Radio Network (I like GB). Seems to me, right after they pissed off the whole firearm community by gross wanton price inflation, they now got down on their knees to suck off the same people they pissed off. I think it's cool of them, to donate 100,000k to Second Amendment Fund, but really, it makes you wonder a bit. Was all the price gouging a way to fund their pocket to fund their agenda, whatever agenda they have with the Second Amendment Fund. Kinda like the NRA utilizing their agenda to make as much money off the current Commie bastards in office putting the scare of death into its citizens concerning gun regulation....which we all know isnt' about guns but about control. Anyways, I thought it interesting that just week or so after the firearm community backlash against CTD's "gouging" they drop serious money to the Second Amendment Fund. It's a double edged sword I guess. IF they can get away with it, I say its the American Way. If they lose their ass and their loyal customers end up leaving and going to Midway or Brownells, I'm happy too. It's weird how Free MArket Economics work sometimes.

 

[sch2046]

I see your opinion and my opinion is your opinion is retarded

Well spoken, we all have our opinions, dont come on here and lecture anyone and call them names.
You sound like a spoiled little bitch.

 

[Gonzo64]

CND lost me long ago, the current chain of events enables me to reaffirm my decision. Semper Fi

 

[VJJPunisher]

Well spoken, we all have our opinions, dont come on here and lecture anyone and call them names.
You sound like a spoiled little bitch.

sch who are you talking to? if it is me you clearly missed the point of my comment

 

[spaniel]

Well isn't this an interesting thread.

Look, they are doing nothing illegal. If you like it, buy from them. If you think they are jerks, vote with your wallet.

I have not done business with them in years, anyone paying attention knows that despite their name they are not a lowest-price vendor. If they want to go for the highest price they can get on an item, my time is too valuable to check them in hopes that on whatever item I am looking for they are actually competitive. I wrote them off years ago for options that are more consistently cost-effective.

 

[sch2046]

sch who are you talking to? if it is me you clearly missed the point of my comment

My fault, I am agreeing with you, I was just typing fast, as I had to leave my house. No offense intended. I was speaking about mr. Economics.