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Rifle Scopes Bubble Level Sensitivity
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Some of you guys that can hold a gun level without a level have a skill the rest of us don’t have.
Sorry I personally need one... but it probably has something to do with how much scotch I consume and how bad my sense of balance is? ;D
Sorry I personally need one... but it probably has something to do with how much scotch I consume and how bad my sense of balance is? ;D
Why not train it out with a bubble level on your scope? You'd never know if that miss left or right was due to wind or due to cant.
The man who shoots without a bubble level presumes that he is correct. The man who shoots with the bubble level knows.
Hmmm...my skill usually improves after a generous application of single malt. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I think that is what Frank is challenging - that the variance of the bubble levels accuracy is greater, so what you think is level on the bubble may actually be off because $7 bubble levels aren't perfect. You only know as much as the accuracy of the device you use, if natural hold and vestibular sense get you to within a greater degree of accuracy then wouldn't you want to train for that instead of relying on a device that may or may not be giving you accurate information? Like I mentioned previously, I still use levels but more to tell me if I'm way off, it's a check if you will to validate what my body and brain are telling me and I will make corrections based off the level, but if it's consistently off every single time then that should serve as an indication that I might have setup my scope with the wrong cant and need to make adjustments.
D
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I know much has been said about limiting equipment at PRS matches, but I think funny hats should be mandatory and high heels optional.I just pictured Captain Jack Sparrow competing in a PRS match
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As to accuracy of the devices, I agree with Frank's implication in the video that the Accuracy 1st level isn't very good. The reason is because it is not sensitive enough. A good bubble level should be sensitive enough that any movement of the gun produces an immediate visible reaction in the bubble.
Once you have a sensitive bubble level (regardless of cost) then any claims that it is inaccurate are a false premise. The accuracy comes in the set up, using a known true vertical like a plumb line. Once you have that done, then it is going to repeatedly return to that same reference point. The claims that a bubble level is "inaccurate" because there is space for the bubble to move between the two lines are similarly wrong. it's more than easy enough to see when the bubble level is centered exactly between those lines, or if it's favoring right or left. Set it up so that vertical is dead center and you can repeatedly return to dead center vertical.
Additionally, once you have a sensitive bubble level claims that the human vestibular sense is somehow "more accurate" become both irrelevant and I would argue misleading to new shooters. First, the resolution limit is determined by your ability to cant the gun left/right. If when you make a tiny movement of the gun there is a visible change in the position of the bubble level to the left/right, then you have achieved perfect resolution. Measured degrees beyond this are irrelevant because you can't move the gun in any finer increments, and that's all that matters.
Finally, and I would argue most important, is the danger of propagating the idea to new shooters that "your mind is powerful enough to achieve perfect results". Anyone who has watched a new shooter knows that is absolute BS and they cant the rifle all over the place and are inconsistent. Even if you get the rifle set up perfect for them it takes time and practice to achieve consistent quality results.
Ultimately, gravity determines the correct answer and not what a shooter "thinks" is level.
You make valid points and I don't think anyone is saying to ditch the bubble, out of curiosity, when you watch Thomas Haugland's video with a digital level, do you think he is being deceptive about his ability to find a greater degree of accuracy with his natural hold and vestibular sense vs. the level? I think Frank brings up a valid point that training and proper technique can, in fact, help a shooter obtain a great degree of accuracy even without a level and that the level becomes a training aid. Maybe the better point to make here, especially for new shooters is to properly setup your rifle/scope and train, train, train.
I've watched a lot of his videos, have followed his channel for several years. I don't think he's being deceptive, but he's also laying prone on relatively flat terrain, looking at a familiar view with lots of trees (good vertical indicators), with plenty of time to really stop and dial in his "vertical feel". If you start to take away those foundational things you start to erode your ability to get a true vertical.
As far as the "more accurate" part, I would point back at my comments about bubble level sensitivity and that you can't be any more accurate than you can move the gun. The bubble level he showed in the video wasn't the greatest design, nor was it in the right place to view without breaking a cheek weld. There are crappy bubble levels out there, and Frank is right to be critical of them. In my experience the plain jane Vortex bubble level is quite sensitive, easy to see, and is cheap.
Agree that to train, train, train is the best answer. But if you don't have a bubble level, how can you judge whether you are training to the correct standard or whether you are successful in your training?
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I like it Sheldon, I think this is the most descriptive response I've seen to the subject, thank you for clarifying. It helps to educate me and others.
It's all about repeatable vertical alignment. Our world is filled with good vertical indicators. When I shoot at paper, I use a level or plumb bob to get a perfect vertical target setup. Think about it, in most tactical situations, you have trees, posts, poles, doors, windows and building features that will aid you. The really only practical need for a level is shooting wide open extended long ranges where no vertical references are in the field of view. The human eye and brain naturally will try to align the cross-hairs to a vertical reference. Only a nooby, with little to no trigger time would need to be schooled on that fact. Anyone comfortable with handling a firearm just does it naturally. I never used or felt the need for a level until I started in 1000 yard bench rest. Now that this thread has made me think about it, I had vertical target frames for every shot that would have done just fine to keep me level to a degree greater than the bubble level did or a digital ever could. If I had the need to try to shoot a bad guy from mountain side to mountain side, you can bet I would absolutely want the best level I could get. It's all relative to whats practical for the type and distance of shooting each individual does. I wonder how many of us has, at one time or another, got too wrapped up in and thrown off our game by too much useless information.
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Having bought bunch of these levels to build into some of gear i designed built in the past , you can freely choose accuracy of the vials in the end it comes down to how sensitive you want it as sensitive ones take time to settle also need to be larger. Small vials built into scope mounts like spuhr are mostly to small to be very sensitive.
In shooting gear Tubb's gar is a generaly good bang for the buck check price of his levels vs some fancyer offerings.
Note on plastic vials ,how many minutes of angle to move bubble 2mm , smal ones are mostly past 60 minutes while slightly larger ones offer half that. Of course you can go much better with glass vials but .....
https://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/vials/plastic-cylindrical-vials/
In shooting gear Tubb's gar is a generaly good bang for the buck check price of his levels vs some fancyer offerings.
Note on plastic vials ,how many minutes of angle to move bubble 2mm , smal ones are mostly past 60 minutes while slightly larger ones offer half that. Of course you can go much better with glass vials but .....
https://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/vials/plastic-cylindrical-vials/
I remember talking to a guy who was a former Olympic level shooter (10m handgun, I think) for the Soviet team and he said they would always drink a glass of cognac before competition, claiming that it would calm their nerves and make them steadier.
I have not tried that myself, so I can not attest to positive or negative effects of cognac on shooting precision.
ILya
On bubble levels, I am sort of a middle of the road guy. When I have a reasonably comfortable shooting position, I do not need a bubble level. However, from some moderately weird shooting positions, I find it to be a useful check.
That having been said, I really dislike looking away from the scope in any way shape or form once I am reasonably set-up, so I like the idea of an internal level like the LevelPlex in Sig's Tango6. It is not hugely sensitive, but it is sensitive enough to tell me if I am doing something really stupid and that is largely what I want out of it. I do not want it so sensitive that I find myself trying to to tweak my shooting position all the time. NPA is NPA. However, it is helpful if it can tell me when I should just re-setup (time permitting, of course).
With external bubble levels, I like Tubb's design, but there are several out there that seem to work fine. There is some work involved in setting them up just right so they agree with the reticle. On rifles where I can not cant the buttpad, I usually end up with a reticle that is slightly canted with respect to the rifle.
ILya
That having been said, I really dislike looking away from the scope in any way shape or form once I am reasonably set-up, so I like the idea of an internal level like the LevelPlex in Sig's Tango6. It is not hugely sensitive, but it is sensitive enough to tell me if I am doing something really stupid and that is largely what I want out of it. I do not want it so sensitive that I find myself trying to to tweak my shooting position all the time. NPA is NPA. However, it is helpful if it can tell me when I should just re-setup (time permitting, of course).
With external bubble levels, I like Tubb's design, but there are several out there that seem to work fine. There is some work involved in setting them up just right so they agree with the reticle. On rifles where I can not cant the buttpad, I usually end up with a reticle that is slightly canted with respect to the rifle.
ILya
No, that wouldn't be the way to do it. The way you want to go is to get your gun set up so that when you get comfortable and naturally positioned on the stock the scope is level. This might mean that the scope is NOT leveled to the gun. Scope should be level to gravity.
You would want to lay down prone and build a position with the stock in your shoulder pocket, getting comfortable as though you were going to shoot, but NOT looking through the scope. Then have a buddy spin the scope in the rings until it's level (check a plumb line with the reticle after the fact). Repeat the process a bunch until you are sure that you're consistent and that every time you get behind the gun the scope naturally falls to a level position. You can do this with other than prone positions too, however you plan to regularly shoot.
If you're using a bubble level it's a bit easier to set up. First level the bubble to the reticle with a plumb line and attach it to the scope. Then put the scope on the gun and go build positions, looking at the level after the fact. Adjust scope rotation in the rings as needed until your natural shooting position has the scope ending up level.
D
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I've been using this cheap one. Not very sensitive. Normally, I get set up and verify with the level and I'm usually ok. I don't adjust unless the bubble is all the way off. I shot without one for so long that I'm not sure how or when I got started. But there times it doesn't feel right so I glance at the level and sure enough. I also don't make a big deal installing it. Small grandfather clock level on scope turret reconcile to scope level. What I'm doing may be totally wrong but it also may not be useless. So, now I'm more confused.
https://www.amazon.com/Lone-Star-Precision-Revoluntionary-Competition/dp/B01L8HDJH4
https://www.amazon.com/Lone-Star-Precision-Revoluntionary-Competition/dp/B01L8HDJH4
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That's the one I use and am very happy with it, I have several of them. Don't be confused, you are using your level for what it is designed for, a verification tool. It's really simple, all a person has to do is get their scope/rifle setup the way they like. When they have done that they center the bubble in the level and then sight in and you are all set. Then when shooting "if needed" you simply verify you have a centered bubble. It's really not rocket science here.
They are nice, just crazy pricey. Using them heads up vs my levels, you can certainly make them more sensitive, but to what end I suppose. Shooting past 2000 yards the expensive and bulky level did not lead to better downrange results.
Maybe I am really confused. How does this differ from what I said? Rifle and scope adjusted so they know each other. Adjust stock so that my natural cant is accounted for.
Thanks...
Could just be the way we're wording things... You said "leveling the scope to the rifle" which I understood to mean that both were perfectly level and then clamped down. Lots of tools out there that try to do that, little wedges off the scope base, etc which IMO are irrelevant if the scope isn't level when you shoot.
I know it's an old thread, but...
I've been obsessed with making stuff plumb for many years. Tonight I got down to the nitty gritty of "how level do I need to be to make the shot?"
I don't disagree with Frank at all with anything he says about rifle setup and vestibular senses and whatnot. I use bubble levels when I set up my Elite Iron bipod for the prone. I have to kneel over the rifle to get it set up and generally level before I tighten the thumb screw. I can't use vestibular senses for that and I want to get behind a rifle that is mostly level after I set the bipod. I honestly don't want to worry about "thinking" about level as I look through the scope. I want an aid to simplify things. I was worried that the bubble level was not sensitive/accurate enough, but I had the LRA Send-iT for a while and set it to the most sensitive, and found that I was constantly worrying about trying to get the light green and it was a HUGE distraction. How level is "level enough"? I went back to the factory settings on the Send-iT, which I think are 0.3 degrees in either direction. Is that level enough?
So tonight I did two things. First I checked a variety bubble levels from cheap to hifalutin against an "angle cube" electronic level with outputs to 0.05 degrees. I found that from the cheapo bubble levels to a Starrett, if the bubble was not touching one of the lines, I was level to within 0.15 to 0.45 degrees. Let's say it's 0.5 degrees, the high end of "inaccuracy". That 0.5 degrees is to one side. So that bubble level is accurate to 1 degree with 1/2 degree left and 1/2 degree right. Even though it's technically a 1 degree cheapo bubble, the error is only 1/2 degree *to each side* which is what counts for me making a shot.
Second, I used a 375 Cheytac in my TRASOL ballistic solver at 2400 yards and changed the cant value from 0-degrees (no cant) to 0.5 degrees cant and my firing solution was changed by all of 0.1 MRAD *at 2400 yards!* The windage was 0.2 MRAD. This is hardly enough to worry about and try to get "perfectly level".
My conclusion is: set up my rifle scope/bubble level as level as possible to a plumb line from the get-go so I have a known starting variable. And then when I'm shooting, if my bubble is within the lines, or my brain says "crosshairs are level bucko" then I can make the shot without worry of cant. Trying to get "perfectly level" is a complete waste of time considering all the other variables I have to deal with in real world shooting. Get it between the lines and move on and start worrying about the wind. And a $20 bubble or my brain will do that, as long as some canted telephone pole or sloping terrain in the distance doesn't mess with my mind, or I get sloppy - which can happen no matter what equipment I'm using.
SOA2
I've been obsessed with making stuff plumb for many years. Tonight I got down to the nitty gritty of "how level do I need to be to make the shot?"
I don't disagree with Frank at all with anything he says about rifle setup and vestibular senses and whatnot. I use bubble levels when I set up my Elite Iron bipod for the prone. I have to kneel over the rifle to get it set up and generally level before I tighten the thumb screw. I can't use vestibular senses for that and I want to get behind a rifle that is mostly level after I set the bipod. I honestly don't want to worry about "thinking" about level as I look through the scope. I want an aid to simplify things. I was worried that the bubble level was not sensitive/accurate enough, but I had the LRA Send-iT for a while and set it to the most sensitive, and found that I was constantly worrying about trying to get the light green and it was a HUGE distraction. How level is "level enough"? I went back to the factory settings on the Send-iT, which I think are 0.3 degrees in either direction. Is that level enough?
So tonight I did two things. First I checked a variety bubble levels from cheap to hifalutin against an "angle cube" electronic level with outputs to 0.05 degrees. I found that from the cheapo bubble levels to a Starrett, if the bubble was not touching one of the lines, I was level to within 0.15 to 0.45 degrees. Let's say it's 0.5 degrees, the high end of "inaccuracy". That 0.5 degrees is to one side. So that bubble level is accurate to 1 degree with 1/2 degree left and 1/2 degree right. Even though it's technically a 1 degree cheapo bubble, the error is only 1/2 degree *to each side* which is what counts for me making a shot.
Second, I used a 375 Cheytac in my TRASOL ballistic solver at 2400 yards and changed the cant value from 0-degrees (no cant) to 0.5 degrees cant and my firing solution was changed by all of 0.1 MRAD *at 2400 yards!* The windage was 0.2 MRAD. This is hardly enough to worry about and try to get "perfectly level".
My conclusion is: set up my rifle scope/bubble level as level as possible to a plumb line from the get-go so I have a known starting variable. And then when I'm shooting, if my bubble is within the lines, or my brain says "crosshairs are level bucko" then I can make the shot without worry of cant. Trying to get "perfectly level" is a complete waste of time considering all the other variables I have to deal with in real world shooting. Get it between the lines and move on and start worrying about the wind. And a $20 bubble or my brain will do that, as long as some canted telephone pole or sloping terrain in the distance doesn't mess with my mind, or I get sloppy - which can happen no matter what equipment I'm using.
SOA2
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While i agree with Frank with your brain being able to pick up level and with proper training you don’t need one, I simply still use one. It’s just an aid that gives me piece of mind that my rifle is level. I have to admit when I check it, I am usually level 99 percent of the time. It’s a bit of a crutch I must say. I
I don't shoot long range stuff often enough to have my brain calibrated with my rifle setup.
That and the fact that all of my shooting is out in the desert and none of it is ever level to begin with, so there's no real frame of reference for orientation.
A bubble level helps me.
Whether it's just the reassurance that the rifle is level or the fact I checked it, I have better results with it.
That and the fact that all of my shooting is out in the desert and none of it is ever level to begin with, so there's no real frame of reference for orientation.
A bubble level helps me.
Whether it's just the reassurance that the rifle is level or the fact I checked it, I have better results with it.
I have been in a sort of "anti-bubble" camp for the average shooter because of my experiences with the two ideas above. I say the average shooter because the average shooter will be lucky to visit a 1k range more than once year. I don't leave bubbles mounted on my rifles, but I have tried two types in the past for initial setup and training, and found that my wind calling was always going to cause more issue than anything that bubble said.
I had some friends try to get into long range shooting a few years ago when the sport kind of took off, and they knew I had been doing it for awhile. They all had their vortex bubbles on their RPRs and R700s. The problem is they all (for context, I am talking 7 different people, all but one had firearm experience) had no clue how to set a rifle up for them. LoP wrong, Optics set too low/high vs the cheek weld, etc... Yet they thought their little bubble was good. So now you have rifles that aren't setup worth a damn, and a shooter cranking the rifle into a worse position to make their magic bubble be perfectly center. After resetting rifles and optics, some of them were still too focused on the bubble trying to get it perfect. Turns out they knew just enough to be dangerous thanks to social media influencers and PRS shooters hyping how bubbles were necessary and acted like it guaranteed hits. Every facebook, instagram, whatever post had them.
I think levels have their place in training... but the people I run into with levels that don't compete, don't shoot ELR, or have any sort of formal training rarely make intelligent conversation about their bubble levels. It is just the same stupid social media talking points that make it sound like I should never be able to hit a 1k plate without a level.
I only put levels on my scopes to look cool. And I do.
I think you should begin with as Frank says over and over the fundamentals of rifle/scope setup and ergonomics and shooter position and all that and I think a bubble level is a good aid and gets you thinking about all the trigonometry that affects things down range.
If nothing else, I recommend that you have a level attached to your scope tube in one way or another so if you move it to another rifle or you unbolt it and move it back and forth to adjust eye relief or whatever that you don't have to start over with another plumb line.
Do it with the plumb line the first go-around, attach a simple bubble to the scope and leave it. Saves future hassles.
Valuable. Can show if a shooter is shouldering/mounting a rifle consistently. Harder to set up adjustable stocks if one moment they're canting the rifle left and the next time they bring the rifle up they're canted right. Scope level or stock adjustments are much easier to make when they're always doing the same thing.
Teaching aid is definitely valuable, especially for understanding your natural hold and how to adjust either the cant of the butt stock or the cant of the scope itself. If you are constantly having to adjust everytime you bring the rifle to your shoulder then something is wrong with your setup or your fundamentals.
I don’t compete, but it seems when seconds count, seeing the level in your non-dominant eye would be helpful. I don’t add levels but some of my mounts have them built in, like Hawkins Heavy Tac, and you can easily see it while maintaining sight on target.
