Buddy just snagged these... what can you guys tell me about them?

[sirhrmechanic]

So was a friend's place earlier today and he snagged these.

The back story (and he is going to get more detail) is that the seller's dad was a Marine and was in Alaska in WW2. But I could not get it clear whether he brought these back or acquired them on a later trip to Alaska in the 1950's.

First is a Model 70 which serial numbers to 1942 or so. Also caliber is marked ".30 Government" not .30-06. I did not look close enough to see a flaming bomb or ordnance mark. The story is that these were shipped to Springfield and then went to the Marines. But it's a story... and second hand at that.

Wartime guns may not have been sold to civilians as sporters... but they did get sold where there was a need. Forest rangers to security guards... heck could have ended up in Alaska in the hands of some guy protecting bulldozer operators on the Alaska Highway from bears. So not every model 70 was snipery. BUT... I know there are some guys here who know these way better than I do.

Scope is obviously not right. And recoil pad was added. This was a guy's New England Deer rifle for more than 50 years and shows it. So if anyone knows anything I can pass on to him! They didn't break the bank and so any news is going to be good and interesting.

Oh and to start, this pouch came with the rifle. I think it's WW1? But could easily have still been issued early in WW2.

On to the rifle. I posted the whole serial number because it may help with research.

Second gun is a trainer for, IIRC, a Springfield 1903? It is .22 Long Rifle Caliber. Has an applique cheek rest. Irons and an older scope.

I know literally nothing about this except it was acquired at the same time as the 70. And supposedly came from his father and was bought at the same time as the 70. First time I've ever handled one of these... so, again, you guys are the good source for info!

Do your knowledge magic, my vintage Ameegos!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[roostercogburn98]

The 70s were marked 30 Government up until the early 40s from my simple understanding BUT they weren’t the 70s model until 1936 right?

Anything prior to that was the 54 I believe

 

[MK20]

So I am pretty sure the second rifle is a Springfield m1922.

 

[MK20]

Many M70s lived an interesting life. This does not directly help you, but I figure this might inspire you to dig further. I do not know if this is a fake or not, but if it is....it's good.

 

[MK20]

 

[VJJPunisher]

The 22 if it was a legit built 22 from Springfield it should be marked model 22 or m22 something like that by the serial number, also mk2 which meant it would’ve had both wood upper handguards, the original armory made m1922’s had no upper handguards.

Numrich sold a shit ton of 1903 rifle 22 conversion kits years ago, had a tube sleeve that basically just pushed in the bore and it didn’t permanently convert it. Less desirable money wise as the armory produced stamped guns but neat as shit nonetheless

Edited to add- just a very faint knowledge share of how I understand it from looking into those in just the past few days

 

[MK20]

So that rifle is stamped cal 22 m2 on the receiver ring. You can see it in the photo.

Nice rifle. True m1922 m2

 

[roostercogburn98]

The 22 if it was a legit built 22 from Springfield it should be marked model 22 or m22 something like that by the serial number, also mk2 which meant it would’ve had both wood upper handguards, the original armory made m1922’s had no upper handguards.

Numrich sold a shit ton of 1903 rifle 22 conversion kits years ago, had a tube sleeve that basically just pushed in the bore and it didn’t permanently convert it. Less desirable money wise as the armory produced stamped guns but neat as shit nonetheless

That one has an M2 stamp above the serial I believe

 

[VJJPunisher]

Boom there ya go, I didn’t zoom in creeper enough. Very cool rifle. The M2 lets us know without a shadow of a doubt its stock is not original. Also they never had drilled and tapped reciever for the side mount, but who cares, it’s pretty cool, what ya gotta have for that incorrect piece of trash?

 

[buffalowinter]

The .22 is a US M1922 trainer, worth from 1200 to 1700. The scope detracts from its value.

The Springfield Model 1922 is a .22 Long Rifle bolt-action rifle. It features a 24-inch (61 cm) barrel and a 5-round magazine. It was built as a cadet rifle, designed to mimic the M1903 Springfield rifle for training purposes.[1] It was produced in several different versions until World War II, when shortages of materials made production of a training rifle impractical.

The M1922M1 variant was introduced in 1925. This version had a new bolt head, an improved firing mechanism, modifications to the chambering, and a new rear sight. The stock was also modified to incorporate a flat based pistol grip.[2]

The M1922M1 NRA variant was introduced in 1927. This rifle basically consisted of the improved M1 version's action in the original 1922 version stock. This version was made for civilian use only and was not purchased by the U.S. Military.[3]

The M2 variant was introduced in 1933. This version featured a simplified bolt and a shallower pistol grip on the stock. "M1922" was not included in the M2's designation.

All versions of the M1922 used what would be the safety lug on the 1903 bolt as the locking lug. Initial problems with this lug cracking drove further development of the M1922 resulting in the final M2 version. the main distinguishing change in the M2 variant was the incorporation of an adjustable headspace mechanism in the locking lug. This mechanism consisted of an Allen key screw that passed through the locking lug bearing against the right rear receiver wall. This headspace screw was locked in place, after adjustment, by a brass pin that bore against headspace screws' threads. the brass pin was not threaded but held in place by a lead plug. The lead plug shows a small eagle that was pressed into the plug by the special tool used by the armourer. If the eagle was disturbed the armourer would know that an attempt had been made to change the headspace by unauthorised personnel.[4]

 

[VJJPunisher]

There goes Buffalo, making us all look stupid again with his precise fact providing

 

[roostercogburn98]

Some of us are pretty dumb, so the education is much needed

 

[VJJPunisher]

Don’t mind me I’ll just go back to sanding off this wierd stamp off my newest 22 trainer

 

[roostercogburn98]

Don’t mind me I’ll just go back to sanding off this wierd stamp off my newest 22 trainerView attachment 8209726

German trash

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Many M70s lived an interesting life. This does not directly help you, but I figure this might inspire you to dig further. I do not know if this is a fake or not, but if it is....it's good.


View attachment 8209686View attachment 8209687

That is definitely NOT how the barrel was marked.

That said, the .30 Government stamping was 'large, deep and not all that professionally stamped.' I should have gotten a pix but was in a rush.

Thanks for those images! Does one infer from that that Frankford re-barreled?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

So that rifle is stamped cal 22 m2 on the receiver ring. You can see it in the photo.

Nice rifle. True m1922 m2

I have no doubt that both these rifles are 'real' and no fakery has gone on.

Modifications... abuse... converting to deer rifles... yes. But no fakery.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[isofahunter]

Pouch is a Mc Keever cartridge box
was developed by 1st Lt Samuel McKeever and adopted in 1874 by US Army. Used till WW 1 period.

 

[MK20]

That is definitely NOT how the barrel was marked.

That said, the .30 Government stamping was 'large, deep and not all that professionally stamped.' I should have gotten a pix but was in a rush.

Thanks for those images! Does one infer from that that Frankford re-barreled?

I don't know. But the stock, barrel, scope base, and rings are all stamped. Doing research on it as I am able. A friend is considering selling it to me.

 

[isofahunter]

That stock looks correct to me. I do not believe 1922 or M2 Gallery rifles ever had handguards.

 

[Random Guy]

That said, the .30 Government stamping was 'large, deep and not all that professionally stamped.' I should have gotten a pix but was in a rush.

Here's a picture of a very early Model 70 from 1936 or 1937. I recall that it has a 4 digit serial number (It's not my rifle).
This is how those early barrels are marked: ".30 GOV T'06". I don't know when they changed the font, but it was like post-WWII.
I'll guess that the calibers were hand-stamped on the barrels after chambering, as the font is not as clean as the Winchester roll-marks.

I'll defer to others regarding specific serial numbers of the US military M70s purchased around 1942.

The M22 trainer is neat, but I presume several (3 or 4) threaded holes have been added to the left side of the receiver for the old scope mount, which unfortunately negates its collector value, but I'm sure it's fun to shoot.

 

[RTH1800]

Sn is in USMC range. @cplnorton will be around soon to let us know to whom it was issued, what day it was first fired etc.
Calling @cplnorton …

 

[RTH1800]

Barrel on 70 is a correct Win barrel.

 

[Aftermath]

The 22LR....those are so very nice. It's not easy to find them that have not been tapped for a scope mount. Most of the ones I have seen have been tapped with the Remington spacing on the top of the receiver. They use a removable 5 round magazine that is very hard to find and expensive if missing. The one I have is untapped and I do have 2 spare magazines. It is VERY accurate. It's no wonder that the majority have been tapped for a scope.

 

[cplnorton]

I love the comment RTH1800.

The first thing I would try to do in this situation is try to document as much as possible. To see if the story is even plausible.

Try to get the full name of the "Marine," from the seller. If you can get his full name, I can run it and usually tell if he was actually a Marine and if he did serve in Alaska. That is where I would personally start because usually when I encounter these stories not too much is accurate when you actually research it.

I guess my first thoughts are he is less likely to be a Marine and more likely to be Army or Navy, if he served in Alaska. It's not common a Marine serves up there. It's not impossible, as I've seen a few. But it certainly is not common.

For these 1942 Model 70's, it is likely the majority (if maybe not all) were bought by someone in the Government. In the Winchester docs when this rifle would have been made, they state they had sat aside all of the Model 70 production for Govt contracts. So, in all likelihood, it probably was bought by someone in the govt. Though the chances are it was bought by someone else and not the Marines.

I think it is pretty commonly known that the Marines bought 373 of these in 1942. There was also a 2nd order that the books and experts do not know about for almost another 100. Though that 2nd order had a lot more target rifles, than the standard configuration above. I personally think the snipers in Vietnam likely came from the 2nd order and not the 373 in the first order.

In 1944, the Marines authorized the sale of that first purchase of 373 M70's thru cash sales or post exchanges. So it is possible a Marine could legally purchase one of those 373 during WWII. So the story as told to you could be actually plausible. But as you said it was never a sniper.

Now on the reverse side I found huge orders of Model 70's to other Govt Agencies. The Army for instance I found contracts to buy a couple thousand if I remember right, and there were other Govt agencies who bought them as well. A lot of them were going to Govt use, and not military use.

I know I have seen some Army docs describing Model 70's shipped to Alaska for use up there during the war. Basically, as a hunting rifle, which would make a lot of sense.

Other than Chandler's list of Marine Model 70's in his book, I have never seen any official records of serial numbers used by the Govt during the war. I did not compare this to Chandlers list. But Chandler built that list in the 70's, so I would not assume it would be on it anyways.

I'm sorry to say I think the furthest you could document this one is just the name of the individual who bought it. Just to see if he ever was even a Marine who served in Alaska. That might be as far as you can take this one. Even though if that was true, he still could have acquired it at a later date.

Finding the serial numbers of the Marine Model 70's has been very difficult. First the Marines had 1000's of them. They didn't stop at only purchasing almost 500 in 1942. They acquired more Model 70's after the war. For instance, one count in the 50's states the Marines had over 2000 of them.

Though if you study Model 70 traits, all the Vietnam pics show the Model 70's had features that were discontinued by WRA during WWII. So the actual M70 snipers in Vietnam do seem to have been made in 1942 or earlier.

Why the Marines had potentially thousands of newer made M70's, but decided to use the older ones as Snipers in Vietnam is still not something I can prove. Though I think I know why, and it has to do with that 2nd shipment in 1942 that the books missed. But that is only a hunch.

But I guess I would start first with a full name from the seller. See if he can get that name and let's see if was a Marine who was stationed in Alaska.

 

[cplnorton]

MK20, is that Model 70 stamped Frankford Arsenal?

I don't want to hijack a thread, but I would love to hear more about that.

 

[MK20]

Pm coming your way.

 

[Mister Ridge]

...
Why the Marines had potentially thousands of newer made M70's, but decided to use the older ones as Snipers in Vietnam is still not something I can prove. Though I think I know why, and it has to do with that 2nd shipment in 1942 that the books missed. But that is only a hunch...

I've read before (I can't remember where and it wasn't specifically about the Marines) that Model 70s were available for military personal to check out to use for hunting on base. Can you shed some light on that?

If it's true, I wonder if they used the old ones because they didn't feel like gathering up the newer ones from wherever they happened to be.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Here's a picture of a very early Model 70 from 1936 or 1937. I recall that it has a 4 digit serial number (It's not my rifle).
This is how those early barrels are marked: ".30 GOV T'06". I don't know when they changed the font, but it was like post-WWII.
I'll guess that the calibers were hand-stamped on the barrels after chambering, as the font is not as clean as the Winchester roll-marks.

View attachment 8210106

I'll defer to others regarding specific serial numbers of the US military M70s purchased around 1942.

The M22 trainer is neat, but I presume several (3 or 4) threaded holes have been added to the left side of the receiver for the old scope mount, which unfortunately negates its collector value, but I'm sure it's fun to shoot.

This one was definitely stamped .30 GOVERNMENT All in capitals. And none-too neatly done. I can ask my buddy for a photo if you guys like.

That above is a beautiful rifle!!! WOW!!!

Sirhr

 

[cplnorton]

I've read before (I can't remember where and it wasn't specifically about the Marines) that Model 70s were available for military personal to check out to use for hunting on base. Can you shed some light on that?

If it's true, I wonder if they used the old ones because they didn't feel like gathering up the newer ones from wherever they happened to be.

Yes that is correct. Each base had rifles that could be checked out for hunting or recreational activity. So normal rifles, shotguns, etc were at bases and units that could be used if you wanted to do some target shooting, or clay pigeons, or you wanted to take a hunting trip.

I know when I was in, there was a base hobby shop where you could go work on your car with tools and equipment that was provided. Back then it was the same concept, just with firearms. They were much more Firearm Friendly and shooting sports was extremely popular.

One caveat in this too is just because a govt agency bought a rifle, doesn't mean they actually bought it for themselves either. I remember in the 1950's seeing correspondence where a Marine could order a Model 70 thru the Marines to WRA and get a substantial discount.

Otherwise, the normal price of a Model 70 was much higher than what Govt price was thru the Marines. So, if a Marine sent in payment to Headquarters Marine Corps, the Marines would order him a Model 70 at the discounted price, but then ship it to him when they got it.

So if you ever saw the records of that Model 70 at WRA, it would say it was purchased and shipped to the Marines. But the Marines were not the actual buyer. An Individual Marine actually was buying it for his personal use and it was never an actual Marine rifle. A Marine just ordered it thru the Marines for the govt discount.

Now if that rifle sold today with WRA paperwork saying it was sold to the Marines, that rifle would have a substantial premium, and probably declared a Sniper rifle. Though technically it was never a Marine rifle at all.

The Marines also bought Model 70's to give away for rifle competition prizes. I've seen that in the docs too.

This is just some of the weird stuff I have seen at the archives when it comes to the Model 70 and the Marines. It's definitely not as simple as the books put out there.

There is a lot of stuff I've found that I hope to someday put together and put out there.

 

[pitspitr]

Pouch is a Mc Keever cartridge box
was developed by 1st Lt Samuel McKeever and adopted in 1874 by US Army. Used till WW 1 period.

Yes, and this one is russet which means it is the last model of McKeever and designed for the 30-40 krag. There weren't any 30-06 designed McKeevers, though plenty probably got used with 30-06 over the years

 

[j-huskey]

There is a lot of stuff I've found that I hope to someday put together and put out there.

Kinda please like hurry the f up and put it together and out there, I wanna read it b4 my expiration/use by date, just sayin.. it is getting a bit closer, ...
Like please Brother ...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Yes that is correct. Each base had rifles that could be checked out for hunting or recreational activity. So normal rifles, shotguns, etc were at bases and units that could be used if you wanted to do some target shooting, or clay pigeons, or you wanted to take a hunting trip.

I know when I was in, there was a base hobby shop where you could go work on your car with tools and equipment that was provided. Back then it was the same concept, just with firearms. They were much more Firearm Friendly and shooting sports was extremely popular.

One caveat in this too is just because a govt agency bought a rifle, doesn't mean they actually bought it for themselves either. I remember in the 1950's seeing correspondence where a Marine could order a Model 70 thru the Marines to WRA and get a substantial discount.

Otherwise, the normal price of a Model 70 was much higher than what Govt price was thru the Marines. So, if a Marine sent in payment to Headquarters Marine Corps, the Marines would order him a Model 70 at the discounted price, but then ship it to him when they got it.

So if you ever saw the records of that Model 70 at WRA, it would say it was purchased and shipped to the Marines. But the Marines were not the actual buyer. An Individual Marine actually was buying it for his personal use and it was never an actual Marine rifle. A Marine just ordered it thru the Marines for the govt discount.

Now if that rifle sold today with WRA paperwork saying it was sold to the Marines, that rifle would have a substantial premium, and probably declared a Sniper rifle. Though technically it was never a Marine rifle at all.

The Marines also bought Model 70's to give away for rifle competition prizes. I've seen that in the docs too.

This is just some of the weird stuff I have seen at the archives when it comes to the Model 70 and the Marines. It's definitely not as simple as the books put out there.

There is a lot of stuff I've found that I hope to someday put together and put out there.

So turns out that the guy who bought them was not a Marine. He was Army Air Corps (Army Air Forces by then, I think). Both guns bought right after the war.

How about the original receipts for cool documentation?

Not sure this helps much… but looks like bought as surplus? Note receipt is Govt printing office.

Waiting on picture of barrel with stamping.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[cplnorton]

I sort of figured he was Army. I really have no doubt that rifle was definitely surplus. It was a couple years old at that point and the Army bought a substantial amount of them. Pretty much everything in this range went to the Govt.

Also $15 was cheap for a Model 70 in 1946, it had to be surplus. I think new price at that time was somewhere around $70-$80.

It's really neat he still had the receipts. To me that adds a lot to these rifles.

 

[cplnorton]

Kinda please like hurry the f up and put it together and out there, I wanna read it b4 my expiration/use by date, just sayin.. it is getting a bit closer, ...
Like please Brother ...

I've been organizing it and putting everything in order.

I have small kids still so that keeps me busy, but I have a decent start on it.

So hopefully not too much longer.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Damn my memory is slipping, .30 Govt 06 on the barrel.

Cheers. Sirhr

 

[cplnorton]

I did double check, the Army and the Marines paid about $42/43 for a standard Model 70 in 1942. They bought some more expensive ones too, but that was the least expensive. So by paying $15 it certainly had to be surplus.

 

[Punisher29073]

Not to jack this thread but I found an m22 in my dads safe today. Ironic.

should I sand the SA stamp out this stock too?

 

[camocorvette]

should I sand the SA stamp out this stock too?

Definitely don't sand the stock! I'm assuming sarcasm though.

Oil it and give the wood some oil too.