budget AR build barrel question

[BigAndy]

Me and a buddy are doing an AR build and I would like some input. I am looking at a heavy 18" barrel with a rifle-length gas system. It's going into a DPMS slick-sided upper. My buddy has a thing for White Oak and, while I'm not against them, DPMS M12 barrels seem to be $100 cheaper. I would like to be able to burn through regular 5.56, but still stabilize heavier ammo; so, 1/8 or 1/7 is preferred. Let me know what you guys think is the best deal going for a budget SHTF rifle.
Thanks,
Jason

 

[windermike]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

PSA had a good deal on barrels a few weeks ago. Not sure if it is still going on.

Mike

 

[BigAndy]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Saw that, but their 18"ers are all 6.8s. It's a matter of price point; if a barrel is much over $200, I will soon own a WO. I appreciate your guys' inputs.

 

[Mil.Dot]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

PKfirearms has FN hammer forged barrels in 18" hbar profile for $240.

If you'll consider a 16" midlength, you could look at Rainier select barrels for $190.

If you definitely want an 18" White Oak are great values, top tier accuracy for a very fair price.

 

[mscott]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

I put a rifle together with that 18" DPMS barrel that's $180 from Midway. My 55gr and 69gr load happen to have the same point of impact at 100 yards and accuracy is great. I like it and would buy another.

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Just curious buy why would you build a 18" HEAVY barreled upper for a SHTF situation? For a SHTF type AR, wouldn't a short and lightweight AR be much more preferable?

 

[Temp9]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

I agree with Recce, no need for a 12lb AR on a SHTF gun. I'd build something with a pencil barrel (actually, probably a medium contour, because I hate pencil barrels), and I'd keep it compact. The beauty of AR's is that you can make a fairly accurate, very reliable AR and keep it weighing around 6lbs before optics.

 

[BCP]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

I wouldn't build for SHTF I would build a rifle for what you are going to use it for right now. The DPMS MK12 barrel is fine for a range/occasional hunting rifle on a budget. Personally, I would spend a bit more for the white oak as I like the profile more. DPMS is HEAVY.

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

I also don't see the need for a heavy barrel...it's just dead weight. The most accurate AR I ever owned (1/2 MOA) had a 16" Medium Contour barrel (Krieger). Looked close to this:

I would recommend getting a Daniel Defense CHF or a PSA barrel. I'd rather wait for a deal on those than buy a heavy DPMS barrel. It'll be money better spent.

@BCP - There's no reason why he can't build an AR that meets SHTF requirements and pretty much any other requirement unless you're building a very specific type of AR or have a very specific SHTF requirement (like a SBR).

Sliding off a topic a little...when I think SHTF AR, I think of a AR that needs to be able to do everything reasonably well. Personally, I would probably pick a 10.5" build (SBR) as those are plenty accurate at 300 yards (hell, I can ding a 18" gong at 300 yards all day long off a bag with my AR Pistol which has a 7.5" barrel...it's literally boring)...and honestly in a SHTF situation, if it's upwards of 300 yards, you probably shouldn't be giving away your presence.

 

[fred650]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Look no further, get a Noveske SS barrel.

 

[QuietM4]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

I've done a few builds with Rainier Arms barrels...I have been very happy with them. Rumor has it they are White Oak blanks turned down to Rainier contours.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Build?

Unless your intentions involve day after day of repeated, extended workouts with the rifle; I think there are affordable, ready made alternatives.

I would start with a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter(24" 1:8" Heavy Stainless, A2 Lower, Flattup) for non-interior/CQB usage ($1055 List), and add a Stag 2HT Upper (16" 1:9", A4 flattop w/Sights) for the closeup stuff ($699 list). I would only add that if you look around, List becomes the upper cost limit.

These items are turnkey, ready to go, and come with factory warrantees and 1/2MOA/1MOA accuracy guarantees. In such a light, the costs seem reasonable to me.

BTW, Stag is the offspring company of CGM which has been producting much of the components other makers employ and have employed for decades. For example, the first S&W M%P AR's were contracted out to Stag until S&W could get their manufacturing operation up to speed.

Greg

 

[Beef82]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also don't see the need for a heavy barrel...it's just dead weight. The most accurate AR I ever owned (1/2 MOA) had a 16" Medium Contour barrel (Krieger). Looked close to this:

I would recommend getting a Daniel Defense CHF or a PSA barrel. I'd rather wait for a deal on those than buy a heavy DPMS barrel. It'll be money better spent.

@BCP - There's no reason why he can't build an AR that meets SHTF requirements and pretty much any other requirement unless you're building a very specific type of AR or have a very specific SHTF requirement (like a SBR).

Sliding off a topic a little...when I think SHTF AR, I think of a AR that needs to be able to do everything reasonably well. Personally, I would probably pick a 10.5" build (SBR) as those are plenty accurate at 300 yards (hell, I can ding a 18" gong at 300 yards all day long off a bag with my AR Pistol which has a 7.5" barrel...it's literally boring)...and honestly in a SHTF situation, if it's upwards of 300 yards, you probably shouldn't be giving away your presence. </div></div>

DPMS MK12 profile is not much if any heavier than this one. The DPMS mini-SASS barrel, that's a whole lot heavier, also midlength and in the white. The DPMS MK12 weighs 2.65lbs, the WOA SPR 2.6lbs, Ranier lists the weight on three different profiles as 2.56lbs (2lbs 9oz) so I wouldn't believe any of them, Daniel Defense doesn't list weight, PSA only currently lists 18" in 6.8SPC.
The MK12 is certainly not as light as barrels come, but it balances well, and is not a bad choice for a low cost build.

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

@Greg-Eh, I don't trust CMT. I use to work at shop and saw a lot of them. It's one thing when they are contracted to make stuff for other vendors but I've seen a lot of problems with CMT including their horribly "staked" bolt carriers. Also, a lot of those S&W's made by CMT had issues. Pat Rogers wrote an obvious "don't offend the advertisers" piece in SWAT magazine about them...if you read between the lines, you can tell that it was definitely "filtered". Wes @ MSTN also had a lot of CMT uppers where the rails were bowed. Remember, when they make their own stuff, they don't need to follow strict standards set by a contract.

@Beef- That picture was just for reference for people who falsely believe that you need a truck axle to have a accurate gun. For a SHTF gun or general AR, I would pick a MUCH lighter profile. A standard Gov't profile but mid-length would be my pick (in 14.5"). Also, I'm not a fan of DPMS. They spent many years earning their no-so-stellar reputation. Maybe now, under CCM they've changed but with known long-term quality vendors out there (like Daniel Defense), I see no reason why to go with DPMS.

 

[Temp9]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietM4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done a few builds with Rainier Arms barrels...I have been very happy with them. Rumor has it they are White Oak blanks turned down to Rainier contours.</div></div>

Not quite. The chambering and contouring is done by White Oak. Rainier's Select is made from a Black Hole Weaponry (or something like that) blank. Their Match is made from a Wilson blank, same as WOA. Their Ultramatch is made from a Shilen blank.

FYI, the Ultramatch barrels are closer to a medium contour, and my 16" UM is the most accurate AR barrel I've shot.

 

[rukwikenuf]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

BigAndy, i've had some groups with a DPMS barrel that were WAY too tight to be a DPMS barrel! my good buddy has one that i've seen shoot 1/2 - 3/4 moa out to 400 yards. pretty damn impressive from a low buck gun. hell, he was out-shooting guys with custom rigs! with a Vortex PST scope, his weight was around 10 lbs. he has the fluted DPMS barrel, whatever the nomenclature is.
i've been able to put out groups of the same general size (give or take a couple thousandths) with my low-buck rifle, using a USED Saber Defence barrel.

i'm a believer that the nut behind the trigger is more important than the size of the wallet (or rave reviews from fanboys on the tacticool bandwagon)

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

It's not about size of the wallet (big or small) it's about consistent quality. In my experience, neither Saber nor DPMS had consistent quality.

And here's something to offset your SINGLE barrel sample:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">August 29th, 2012
Greetings,

As mentioned (and as far as I know), Saber is no longer in business*. I had purchased two "match quality, target grade" barrels from them about 2 years ago for a pair of ARs I was building. I was not aware this was at the same time they were going through quite a few problems. I had to send both back as neither would head space or time correctly. Long story short, it ended up taking several months and 4 returns to end up with ONE barrel that actually met spec. Each time a new barrel arrived, it had either the same or a different problem. This experience taught me ($$$) to always verify head space on any AR15 build, regardless of the reputation of the parts used BEFORE moving forward with the process.

Trying to resolve this with Sabre, phone calls and emails went unanswered for the most part or I was told to expect a return call that never came. The few times I was able to speak with someone, they were very nice and offered to look into it, but never got back to me. Fortunately, I was dealing with them through Brownells (great service and assistance with all my issues).

The final barrel I received was really good, but no way I'd go through all of that again. I had to source a barrel from a different company to complete the other build. So, the rifle you're looking at could have been made during these times or it could be just fine. Hard to tell until you'd get it. I'd be very wary of purchasing any Sabre product unless there was a 100% full refund return policy offered by the vendor. Wishing you better luck than I had if you go this route!

Regards, Jim</div></div>

*Saber is still in business in the UK from my understanding. I think Manroy USA bought their US operations (after the 2010 ATF raid/bankruptcy shenanigans) but I'm not sure if they're still selling to civilians or just filling mil contracts.

At our shop, we had a dozen bad barrels that went back to Saber for a refund. For our troubles (building and testing the uppers just to find the barrels were junk), Saber sent us free Massad Ayoob barrels...we sold them with a "AS IS" warning.

 

[seanhagerty]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

If you are looking at a budget barrel, Sportsmans Warehouse has M4 profile barrels occasionally for about 90 bucks.

 

[shooter.dm]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Go to ar 15 depot they have what you wont I got a 16 in m4 shoots 1/2 moa every time

 

[BigAndy]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Thanks for the advice. I got a Midway coupon and picked up the Mark 12 barrel. I chose that one because: 1) AR ammo is much cheaper tha 300WM and I don't get to a ranges long than 200 yards very often; 2) I can pick up a shorty upper later for a lightweight rifle; and 3) I just really dig the heavy barreled look, with a long free float tube and rifle-length gas system. Thanks again, and I might pick up one those Rainiers the next time my wallet isn't so empty.
-JA

 

[strat81]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigAndy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice. I got a Midway coupon and picked up the Mark 12 barrel. I chose that one because: 1) AR ammo is much cheaper tha 300WM and I don't get to a ranges long than 200 yards very often; 2) I can pick up a shorty upper later for a lightweight rifle; and 3) I just really dig the heavy barreled look, with a long free float tube and rifle-length gas system. Thanks again, and I might pick up one those Rainiers the next time my wallet isn't so empty.
-JA</div></div>

As part of some load deve2lopment, I shot these with a 3-gun build using a DPMS Mk12 barrel, lead sled, and a Burris MTAC 3.5-10x.

Basic load info can be found on the pics. Primers were standard CCI small rifle, brass was mixed LC sized in Lee dies. The groups were all shot on the same day, so conditions were roughly the same for each load. No chrony, so I'm not sure what my velocities are.

The upper receiver was lapped prior to assembly. Not sure it helps, but I had the tool, so why not?

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigAndy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice. I got a Midway coupon and picked up the Mark 12 barrel. I chose that one because: 1) AR ammo is much cheaper tha 300WM and I don't get to a ranges long than 200 yards very often; 2) I can pick up a shorty upper later for a lightweight rifle; and 3) I just really dig the heavy barreled look, with a long free float tube and rifle-length gas system. Thanks again, and I might pick up one those Rainiers the next time my wallet isn't so empty.
-JA </div></div>
I'm not trying to antagonize you but you do realize that the "heavy" part of the barrel will be hidden by the handguard/rail so there is no "look" to be had.

-----------------------------------------------------------

@strat81

Like I said, heavy barrel does not necessarily equal accuracy. So now your stuck 3 gunning with and unnecessarily long and heavy gun when a LIGHTWEIGHT (0.625 gas block) 16" barrel can shoot similar groups...just sayin'...

A 30-shot composite group from a 16” Noveske SS Recon barrel(5.56 Noveske Match Mod 0 chamber, a 1:7" twist and polygonal rifling). FACTORY loaded ammo, not a tuned hand load.

Are you sitting down? This is from a 10.5" 5.56 AR barrel. So your truck axle of a barrel with hand tuned rounds shoots as good as a 16" LIGHT weight barrel, a 16" MEDIUM weight and a 10.5" barrel, the last two shooting factory loaded ammo...congrats.

<span style="font-size: 8pt">edited for added info/formatting</span>

 

[strat81]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recce556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

@strat81

Like I said, heavy barrel does not necessarily equal accuracy. So now your stuck 3 gunning with and unnecessarily long and heavy gun when a LIGHTWEIGHT (0.625 gas block) 16" barrel can shoot similar groups...just sayin'...

A 30-shot composite group from a 16” Noveske SS Recon barrel(5.56 Noveske Match Mod 0 chamber, a 1:7" twist and polygonal rifling). FACTORY loaded ammo, not a tuned hand load.

Are you sitting down? This is from a 10.5" 5.56 AR barrel. So your truck axle of a barrel with hand tuned rounds shoots as good as a 16" LIGHT weight barrel, a 16" MEDIUM weight and a 10.5" barrel, the last two shooting factory loaded ammo...congrats.

<span style="font-size: 8pt">edited for added info/formatting</span></div></div>

Nice groups!

Part of the reason I went with the Mark12 barrel aside from potential accuracy was the weight and the gas system. IME, both help contribute to a softer shooting rifle. The CAR gas on most 16" rifles is noticeably "snappier" than with this setup.

The added bonus is that I can pull the 1-4x scope off and put on a 3.5-10x and go shoot prairie dogs with less concern about stringing that often occurs with lighter barrel profiles.

Is it the best? Nope. It's all a compromise.

The OP is also asking about budget barrels. A used Colt LW might fall in that category, but a Noveske generally does not, nor does a 10.5" barrel once you add in $200 for a tax stamp to use it (assuming they're legal in that particular state).

Would I have made a different choice if I did not have budget constraints? Probably. Would the OP? Maybe.

What's your Blitzking load?

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strat81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nice groups!

Part of the reason I went with the Mark12 barrel aside from potential accuracy was the weight and the gas system. IME, both help contribute to a softer shooting rifle. The CAR gas on most 16" rifles is noticeably "snappier" than with this setup.

The added bonus is that I can pull the 1-4x scope off and put on a 3.5-10x and go shoot prairie dogs with less concern about stringing that often occurs with lighter barrel profiles.

Is it the best? Nope. It's all a compromise.

The OP is also asking about budget barrels. A used Colt LW might fall in that category, but a Noveske generally does not, nor does a 10.5" barrel once you add in $200 for a tax stamp to use it (assuming they're legal in that particular state).

Would I have made a different choice if I did not have budget constraints? Probably. Would the OP? Maybe.

What's your Blitzking load?</div></div>
Yeah I'm with you, I would avoid a CAR gas system as much as possible. Even my 14.5" builds use Mid-Length gas system. Along with a BattleComp 1.5, they shoot very softly with no muzzle rise with 100% reliability with all ammo even weak junk like Wolf.

The barrel/group picts were merely to show that a heavy barrel isn't necessary for many/most applications and to debunk the commonly held belief that HB=accuracy. In some earlier posts, PSA barrels were recommended as were some others which fit the price point the OP was looking at.

Here's one:

PSA 16" CMV 5.56 Nato, Mid-Length, Lighter profile, Chrome-lined, MP, Premium Barrel - $169.95. That's pretty cheap for a barrel.

Sorry, I don't have the load data for the 55gr., none of those were from me.

 

[Gee223]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strat81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As part of some load deve2lopment, I shot these with a 3-gun build using a DPMS Mk12 barrel, lead sled, and a Burris MTAC 3.5-10x.

Basic load info can be found on the pics. Primers were standard CCI small rifle, brass was mixed LC sized in Lee dies. The groups were all shot on the same day, so conditions were roughly the same for each load. No chrony, so I'm not sure what my velocities are.

The upper receiver was lapped prior to assembly. Not sure it helps, but I had the tool, so why not? </div></div>

Mine shoots slightly better with 75gr Hdy Match over 24gr AA2520 than 68s (1" & 1 1/4" 10 shot). My 55gr V-max are also around MOA. I really like this barrel. It's not an absolute tack driver, but plenty accurate for my needs. For only $160 @ JSE Surplus, it was a great buy.

I shoot off a bipod and a beanbag, brass is completely mixed, the scope is a 3-9 Mark AR.

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Just to add some info, I have the weights of various <span style="font-weight: bold">Daniel Defense</span> barrels (LW = Light Weight). These are ALL Cold Hammer Forged barrels using Ordnance Grade 4150 Steel (CMV) and are chrome lined.

14.5"/5.56/1:7/Mid/Gov't Profile - 1lb 8oz
14.5"/5.56/1:7/Mid/LW Profile - 1lb 4oz

14.5"/5.56/1:7/CAR/Gov't Profile - 1lb 9oz
14.5"/5.56/1:7/CAR/LW Profile - 1lb 5oz

16"/5.56/1:7/Mid/Gov't Profile - 1lb 11oz
16"/5.56/1:7/Mid/LW Profile - 1lb 6oz

16"/5.56/1:7/CAR/M4 Profile - 1lb 11oz
16"/5.56/1:7/CAR/LW Profile - 1lb 4oz

18"/5.56/1:7/MID/S2W Profile - 2lb 5oz

 

[socomike]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

FN hammer forged barrels are good quality and cheap. I bought my 10.5 inch from Palmetto State Armory for 200 and it shoots great.

 

[recce556]

Re: budget AR build barrel question

Yes, the FN/PSA barrels are nice. FN make Centurion and Noveske's CHF barrels too. I believe Spikes also get their CHF barrels from FN but I think PSA charges the least for their barrels.