Night Vision "budget" thermal feedback

[SkaerE]

anyone buy one of these? its still a lot of dough but way more affordable than whats been available...

looking for feedback on the HM224 model by Flir seen here

http://www.flir.com/cs/emea/en/view/?id=41899

looks like retails for between 2500 and 3k and has resolution of 240 x 180 pixels

EDITED: use would be ID'ing coyotes at night. would like to know how far out coyote sized animal can be detected/ID'd

thanks!

 

[MSS]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

With thermals in open Terrain you can id animals out to a grand depending on size, I used a recon 3 made by flir and id'ed a small animal over 1200m.

 

[SkaerE]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

but isn't the Flir Recon III a 640 x 480 unit that is way more expensive? (and probably unavailable to the general public)

im sure that a great thermal unit can do a lot of things these more "budget/civi" units wont do. hence my question about these specifically.

 

[km2006dmax]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

To be honest it's going to be tough to id coyotes or smaller game past 100 yards with the unit your referring to. The unit comes with a 24 degree fov, which is usually better for close range applications. Now you can detect game at descent ranges depending on the conditions. I hunt with a flir h307. I can id coyotes at several 100 yards with this unit due to the 65mm lens with a 7 degree fov.

 

[MSS]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

Yea, recon 3 was just an example, way out of anyones range. They retail for 50k.

 

[SkaerE]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

thanks for the responses guys.

so, i was lucky enough to have a local shop have a returned "unused" unit in the store and they let me fire it up and play with it for about 15 minutes.

i have to say, i am not impressed for the price. between the field of view and the resolution i was lucky to be able to tell a human was out at 150 yards. and that human looked like a thin vertical "pixel stick"

perhaps when you get the "Pro model" with the 2x zoom...add in an optical doubler and get the higher res version it would be ok. but by then you are well over 6K.

my opinion, the basic models of the First Mate and the green version the Scout, not worth it for hunting.

 

[NoveSPR]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

ID and detection are 2 VERY different things. With the MTM, I can detect live heat sources at great distance, but to ID them, I have to switch to I2. A deer at 300 yds can look alot like a cow! Shoot one and you go to jail, the other will just cost you alot of money!

 

[TexasClassIII]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

I bought and later returned that FLIR unit.

It was a lot of fun to play with around the house or office. You could see where people had put their hand on the wall, or where the dog left a heat imprint where it had been laying on the floor.

But in the field I found it to be completely, utterly, and totally useless.

Batteries ran out very, very quickly.

But worse is the quality. It's atrocious. When you are looking at 0-50 feet its great, but out in the field good luck. Maybe in the dead of winter with snow on the ground it'd be better, but at night with a 60 degree ambient it was horrible. We tried having people lay in the grass and until you walked up practically on top of them you couldn't see them. Various scenarios yielded similar results. A flashlight or Gen 3 NV would have been infinitely better.

I think this is the best comparison...compare it to night vision.

That unit would be like Gen 1 NV. I'd personally rather have a flashlight mounted to my gun than have gen 1 NV. Seriously.

If you're thinking about getting that unit you should do one of several things:
1. Save your money
2. Spend the same amount of money on a current gen NV setup
3. Pony up the $ for a nice high end thermal that is actually useful in the field

Parker

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: "budget" thermal feedback

I picked up an L3 x200xp unit and it's very sensitive. It's also crazy expensive.

My SF buddies like to point out that it's great if you are the hunter, but the field of vision is just not awesome to behold.

I do find that it's much better at identifying targets than NV, as you can actually identify them.

The 50xp unit was not really good a fine detail, but the x200xp is a completely different beast.

Yeah, it's manual focus, and, like NV, you have to adjust the gain. ...but it does work.

Honestly, I'd like to find a device that uses both technologies in composite with a decent field of view.

 

[Ronn72562]

I just purchased the ps-32 FLIR for a budgetary purposes,could not ford a clip on mount yet.It does pick up game well up to 250-300 yards can Id a human they say up to 500 yards.Its hard to pony up 3k more for a clip on or the LS-64.
Ron

 

[Phantom223]

I have the FLIR PS32 and my hunting buddy has the M24 (640x480) thermal viewer and a Renegade thermal rifle scope. We mainly use thermal viewers for detecting varmints out hunting and then follow up with NV systems a scope or IR laser for targeting. In real hot summer weather I can tell my PS32 has less usefull range but it still has no issue finding hogs or a coyote at 200-300 yards. During the fall it will reach out there past 500+ yards. With the PS32 I spot critters every night out I wouldn't have seen with my BNVD or PVS-14 alone the thermal has proven to really help us out alot. Last summer we had alot of foggy nights where I couldn't see to shoot with my D-740 scope but my buddy killed hogs right through the thick fog with his thermal scope while I watched with the PS32. It was pretty cool but I still can't justify buying a thermal scope myself as most nights my D-740 pinnacle provided a better shooting image and better target ID. Coolness factor his Renegade thermal scope is the coolest thing I have seen

 

[Ronn72562]

Hi phantom
Is the m24 thermal much better than the ps-32? Can he use a helmet mount with the m24.I saw on sniper hide that someone has a helmet mount With the m24.What was the cost of a m-24? Is the renegade thermal scope better than the m24 or the ps-32?
Thanks
Ron

 

[Phantom223]

Ron, I do like the M24 "housing" alittle better than my PS32 as it uses 123A batteries, has PVS-14 style eyepiece, and 30hz frame rate, and sort of a PVS-14 solid feel to it. That said it looks like both the PS32/M24 use the same front 19mm lens and the PS32 is a very nice user friendly housing,very solid built, and has the instant alert feature great for hunters. The 640x480 imager is also noticeably clearer/crisper image wise but still with the 19mm lens distant targets lack clarity and the unit is more of a detection system just like my PS32 which we follow up with gen 3 night vision for ID. I ordered a LS64 this week I thought about the M24 640x480 model but the LS64 offered the 35mm lens and instant alert for less money and I think those two features are very important for how I use my thermal which is scanning for varmints/hogs. The Renegade scope is a different animal it uses a amorphous silicon detector(vs FLIR Vox) with 320 x 240 and the front lens is much bigger than the PS32 or M24. The Renegade does look better at long ranges thanks to its bigger lens but the M24 640x480 image looks better to me closer ranges much sharper clarity wise.Im not any thermal expert the above systems along with a FLIR H-307 are the only thermals I have had a chance to use in person field conditions but it seems to me you really have to spend alot of money to see much performance gain to the eye with thermal gear.

 

[Ronn72562]

Hi phantom
Have you had a chance to look through the LS-64 FLIR system yet? That is a lot of money for just a thermal to ID something,I want a weapon mount/handheld unit,the problem is they start at 5,500 and up.Have you seen the ATN Thor 320 thermal unit?
Thanks
Ron

 

[rmyers2213]

In my opinion, and after a lot of research, the best bang for your buck is an L3 handheld. Works awesome in tandem with my pvs14

 

[Ronn72562]

Thank you rmeyers,I have both and am learning which system work best,do you have a single pvs-14 or a bino system?

 

[Wolf22]

TAG for later hog ideas

 

[Phantom223]

Ron, I haven't seen the LS64 or Thor 320 in person yet. I hope my LS64 ships soon I just ordered it last week. Really to be honest the ps32 does a great job for me but I am always looking to upgrade my gear and decided I would get a second thermal mono.

 

[Ronn72562]

Sounds great,you will have to give me a update on how great the image is compared to your ps-32?
Thanks
Ron

 

[5spd]

I have been using my FLIR ps32 for about a year now & can identify coyotes to 600yds w/ease.
Deer/antelope to 900 as easy, just takes time to get to know what yer looking at & how they move.
tequipment.net is your go to place for the best prices also.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

That would be "tequipment.net" not dot com.

 

[5spd]

That would be "tequipment.net" not dot com.

Thanks, you are correct, I fixed it.

 

[1whobuys]

I had the ATN Thor 320 4X 60hz, it was a great scope, I have a wooden fence at the back of my yard, it's 340' deep. I could make out with ease the boards and gaps. I took it over to a buddies house and on the lake behind his house we could spot and identify Geese at 250-300 yards with no mistake of what it was. I would watch people walking by and then range them in town. No problem IDing them at 400+ yards.
That is as far I as could keep them on glass.
I would have been very happy to be "stuck" with the Thor 320 but I bucked up and sent it back for the Thor 640 5X that should be here in a week or two.
ATN has an "if you don't like it, return it for full refund" policy, you can also send it back for a upgrade within 30 days and just pay the difference for a new unit policy.
My new unit is 30hz, they told me I can send in the 640 and update it to 60hz for the $500.00 when ever the 60hz in released even if it's a year or more.

I got a really, really great price on both from a dealer, I will be glad to pass on his info to anyone interested in ordering a unit. I have no relation to him, but he was great to deal with.
I am looking forward to getting the new 640, it's going on the new ECC from Cliff's GB.

 

[Ronn72562]

I just love the Thor 320 thermals,but don't have the bucks the anti up on one yet,I have not heard about this new unit yet,the 640? Was it released at shot show by chance in Las Vegas .Is there a web site to see this new thermal and wht is the price.
Thanks
Ron

 

[5spd]

I just used a pals Ls64 last night along w/my own ps32 checking them out side by side from 9pm to 4am on many coyote sets in the snow & 9* temps. There is a BIG difference in resolution. At the basic part it about 3x as clear at 200 yds IMO, nice & sharp, at 2x the same, n8ice & clearer at, 4x it was like 2x on my ps32, kinda losing resolution, BUT at 6x it looked like crap, I felt I was looking through a glass shower door, otherwise the FOV is much better with the 35mm lens VS 19 on the ps32.
IMO I do not see the 3k difference worth at all, even looking at cattle at 900yds and they were a bit sharper overall in his 64, I could see them the same in my 32.
I could make animals out at the same distances to 900yds from what was running around, even rabbits that were just small moving white dots.

 

[rmyers2213]

Thank you rmeyers,I have both and am learning which system work best,do you have a single pvs-14 or a bino system?

Single- not bino

 

[Ronn72562]

I just can't see spending an extra 3000.00 dollars on a hand held unit that's not a whole lot better at longer distances.
Ron

 

[1whobuys]

The 640's have been out for a while. It is the 320 with twice the resolution. You can see them at the ATN Website.
They are expensive, I saved a "BUNCH" getting it from bestpriceforUperiod.com Talk with Bruce and tell him you talked to Chuck from Illinois.
He's great to work with and his prices where way better than anyone else I spoke with.
I would guess you would be starting in the $5K range and going up on the Thor's.
After having the 320 I decided to buck up and go with the best thermal I could get, I sold a few great guns to get it.
I figure if my life depended on it, I can survive with the thermal, no-one can go unseen and no animal (food) can get away.
It was between Thermal and NV, I've had ITT NV before, this is the way to go, I'll add NV later.

 

[MaverickNH]

So what's the markup on a PS32? I've seen them as low as $2600 on ebay and have had luck with eBay Best Offer bids knocking 10% of lowest prices. As an off-the-shelf item, I'm not feeling vendor support is an important aspect, as manufacturer warranty is the main issue.

 

[5spd]

So what's the markup on a PS32? I've seen them as low as $2600 on ebay and have had luck with eBay Best Offer bids knocking 10% of lowest prices. As an off-the-shelf item, I'm not feeling vendor support is an important aspect, as manufacturer warranty is the main issue.

Dont know the markup, but its not just a few pennies. You can get them NEW for A tad less also.
See the link above for the best prices on new units. I have yet to have a supporting vendor on any of the gun sites Im on want to or be able to meet others prices online when I have asked them. Ill support, BUT I will not overpay.

 

[MaverickNH]

so is the Maritime version the same as a PS32 but cheaper? http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-First-Mate-MS-324-Handheld/dp/B005DJTZDQ#productPromotions

 

[SkyPup]

so is the Maritime version the same as a PS32 but cheaper? http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-First-Mate-MS-324-Handheld/dp/B005DJTZDQ#productPromotions

You can convert the Maritime version to the PS-32 using the PS-32 software update by switching to InstaAlert from Maritime Red.

 

[MaverickNH]

You can convert the Maritime version to the PS-32 using the PS-32 software update by switching to InstaAlert from Maritime Red.

Great - thanks for the information. The obvious difference is the PS32 is olive green and MS-324 is bright yellow, but used in the dark, little difference. OK - maybe more visible to NV and in daytime, but for $600 off I can paint the housing ;-)

 

[1whobuys]

I would check with Bruce at bestprie4Uperiod.com his prices blow away anyone else I've dealt with

For the person the PM'd me, I tried to respond 3x's and I still don't show anything in my out box...But it was $11,995.00
I had the 320 4X 60Hz and returned it for full refund, I later ordered the 640 5X, it should be here ant day.

 

[Rob Banks]

What is a really really great price? still above 10K? I'm drooling but finding it hard to spend that kind of $ right now. I am currently in the boat of "maybe in a year or two technology and availability will drop the prices" BUT if I can get a "really, really great price" I may pony up the $.