Buffer weight?

Hondo64d

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May 12, 2006
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I put together an AR some time back and am questioning whether or not I used the proper weight buffer. The rig in question has a 18" Black Hole mid length barrel. Using a Spike's BCG. It has a standard A2 length buffer tube, buffer and recoil spring. The cycling on it seems kinda harsh but no pressure signs on the loads.

Do I need a heavier buffer, spring, or both, or should I be looking elsewhere for the fix?

Thanks,

John
 
Heavier buffers and XP springs will work to resolve your overgassing issues (likely the true culprit of your problems), but they are a proverbial bandaid for a sucking chest wound.

Instead, I would get right to the root of the problem with an adjustable gas block so that you can fine tune the amount of gas needed for optimum functioning, which will in turn allow you to run the components you've already got in place, as well as afford you smoother cycling, less wear/tear on your components, and, in all likelihood, better accuracy and quicker follow-up shots.
 
Go with the gas block. The rifle is likely over gassed.

Heavier buffers and XP springs will work to resolve your overgassing issues (likely the true culprit of your problems), but they are a proverbial bandaid for a sucking chest wound.

Instead, I would get right to the root of the problem with an adjustable gas block so that you can fine tune the amount of gas needed for optimum functioning, which will in turn allow you to run the components you've already got in place, as well as afford you smoother cycling, less wear/tear on your components, and, in all likelihood, better accuracy and quicker follow-up shots.
 
I would try a heavier buffer or even a VLTOR A5 receiver extension/buffer before I would go messing with an adjustable gas block. There are many who prefer the A5 system for smoother shooting.

Vltor A5 - Still a must have?

Is your gun really overgassed? Where is your brass ejecting (1:00, 3:00, 5:00 o'clock) and how far is it going? A mid-length gas system and rifle length receiver extension should be a pretty soft shooter with the right buffer and spring. Call Black Hole and ask what size gas port they drill and what they recommend for a buffer.
 
What dwood said. Where is it ejecting? That's how to diagnose the gas situation, not how it cycles. Ive never heard of different weight a2 buffers or stiffer springs. That's all collapsible stock stuff, which is what you should be using anyways lol
 
OK so what...1, 3, or 5.....whats that saying. All mine out of my POF upper and spikes lower are in a neat pile at 1 o'clock and I can't get my bolt to lock back on emptey....

The OP is running a middie gas system on an 18" barrel, with a rifle length RE, buffer, and spring, which should be a very soft shooting gun. The presumption that since he feels his rifle feels harsh shooting that his gun is overgassed makes the question of where, and how far, the brass is ejecting relevant to the discussion.

The failure of your piston driven gun is not relevant to the conversation. Heavier buffers exist to solve the problem that the OP is experiencing before he has to go replacing gas blocks with adjustable blocks that are generally meant to be used when shooting suppressed.
 
The OP is running a middie gas system on an 18" barrel, with a rifle length RE, buffer, and spring, which should be a very soft shooting gun. The presumption that since he feels his rifle feels harsh shooting that his gun is overgassed makes the question of where, and how far, the brass is ejecting relevant to the discussion.

The failure of your piston driven gun is not relevant to the conversation. Heavier buffers exist to solve the problem that the OP is experiencing before he has to go replacing gas blocks with adjustable blocks that are generally meant to be used when shooting suppressed.

OK Great! Don't give a shit about my gun.... What is the pile of brass at 1, 3 or 5 telling Him.....You brought it up in this conversation so it is absolutely relevant.
 
You can really muddy the waters by arguing that an ejection pattern at x-o'clock means y just in and of itself, HOWEVER, generally speaking, if your AR is throwing brass forward a blue country mile (like noon to 2 o'clock or so), you could well be overgassed (or underweight with your buffer/spring, or...), from 2 o'clock or so through 4 o'clock or so is generally "ok" and arguably where you want it to eject, and from 4 o'clock or so to 6 o'clock undergassed (or too heavy a buffer or...). There's a stupid "chart"/"graph" of ejection patterns floating around that I won't both reposting here but it will give you a visual of basically what I just referenced.

That is a GROSS oversimplification and frankly doesn't always mean over/undergassed, but it could be some variation of multiple factors at play. For example, you could have an overgassed rifle with too heavy a buffer and XP buffer spring that ejects brass 1' from the rifle and stacks cases neatly at 3 o'clock. Does that means its operating optimally...NO. It is still overgassed, but you have applied said a "fix" for the symptoms instead of treating the disease, thus masking what was an overgassing problem from the get go with an overly heavy buffer/spring combo to get it to comply with a chart that says it should eject at x, y or z angle. At the end of the day, if your rifle/carbine is firing, ejecting, otherwise cycling properly and isn't beating the crap out of you, your brass, or your rifle/carbine components themselves, attempting to figure out whether it may be under or overgassed based on where its ejecting and how far away is a fool's errand at best. ;)

Adding more reciprocating mass, etc., to an AR is NOT always the best way to go about handling certain issues, although it can help to reduce the aforementioned symptoms. As to folks who've never heard of XP springs and heavier buffers for rifle-length stocks (A1/A2/etc.)...they've been around a LOOOONG time now and actually can work to reduce perceived recoil, deal with increased blowback from suppressed fire, etc., but the best practice is still to deal with overgassing and/or recoil mitigation by tuning the gas system and not adding addt'l reciprocating mass, stiffer springs, etc. unless that's all you've got to work with for whatever reason. Furthermore, suggesting that adjustable gas blocks are merely for use on rifles/carbines that will see suppressed fire is in error. While they certainly work well in reducing gas volume in rifles/carbines that are subjected to considerably more blowback when shooting suppressed, the benefits of adjustable blocks go well beyond that single purpose.

As to the OP's situation, a rifle stock/receiver extension, 5oz rifle buffer and rifle spring, combined with an 18" barrel with a mid-length gas system that feels like it is cycling "kinda harsh" lends itself to assessing an overgassing situation regardless of where its throwing brass (12 o'clock or 6 o'clock) or how far away its throwing it (3' or 20'). BUT, with an 18" barrel and a mid-length gas system though (regardless of stock/receiver extension setup), the recoil impulse may tend to surprise some shooters as it will be somewhat sharper or a little more snappy than other platforms, especially 18" tubes with rifle-length gas systems, but that can vary wildly as well depending on what size gas port the barrel in question has got (there is no universal standard for gas port diameter by barrel length/gas system length/etc.), etc., etc.

Its not a simple matter of ejection at x-o'clock means its over/under/normally gassed.
 
OK Great! Don't give a shit about my gun.... What is the pile of brass at 1, 3 or 5 telling Him.....You brought it up in this conversation so it is absolutely relevant.

See my post above re: purported functional issues being assessed by a rifle's ejection pattern.

On a piston operated rifle, where using an adjustable block really isn't an option (aside from switching the block already on your rifle to another position...like the POF which has different settings that may assist with function-related problems), then a different buffer (heavier or lighter) and/or different spring (XP or lower strength) may be the only option you have to dealing with an over or under-gassing situation.
 
OK Great! Don't give a shit about my gun.... What is the pile of brass at 1, 3 or 5 telling Him.....You brought it up in this conversation so it is absolutely relevant.

I don't hate your piston gun. I said its failure (you stated it will not lock the bolt on the last round) was not pertinent to the OP's problem with a DI 18" middie.

ORD has provided some excellent info. Brass ejection patterns are not a definitive test to determine if the gun is correctly gassed BUT, since the OP says there is no evidence of "pressure signs" on the loads, the answer to my question could give a clue. If his gun is ejecting at 3:00 to 4:30 - 5:00 ( where correctly gassed guns generally eject brass), combined with normal looking brass, the odds are that the gun is not overgassed. I would want to know the answer to this question, as well as try a buffer/spring combination that would help, BEFORE I go changing to an adjustable gas block.

I would also contact the barrel maker. I have read that there is some speculation that they make the premium barrels for some top brands. IF that is true, I would expect the gas port size to be in spec with the likes of Colt, DD, etc. who are generally thought to gas their barrels correctly. Black Hole may provide very helpful information.

The link below has a lot of good information on the function of an AR and gas system problems. It provides very detailed info on evaluating ejected brass and determining if a gun is properly gassed. maybe the info will help the OP.

AR15BARRELS.COM - Randall's description of AR gas operation and how everything works in harmony

I have no direct experience with the VLTOR A5, but everything I read about it leads me to believe that it will make the OP's gun more comfortable for him to shoot.

The link below may provide some good info for you OP.

Softening Recoil?
 
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For my a2 set ups I run tubb flat wire spring with a regular rifle buffer. I've never tried a heavier buffer but it seems to work out good for me with my 77 smk loads using 24.5gr of varget in LC cases. The longer tubb spring helps dampen or soften the recoil but a sufficient amount. Hope that helps
 
Heavier buffers and XP springs will work to resolve your overgassing issues (likely the true culprit of your problems), but they are a proverbial bandaid for a sucking chest wound.

Instead, I would get right to the root of the problem with an adjustable gas block so that you can fine tune the amount of gas needed for optimum functioning, which will in turn allow you to run the components you've already got in place, as well as afford you smoother cycling, less wear/tear on your components, and, in all likelihood, better accuracy and quicker follow-up shots.

What are the signs of over gassing?
 
What are the signs of over gassing?

It can vary, but brass being badly dinged/dented up upon extraction/ejection, brass being thrown forward (like 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock or so) and being thrown a LONG ways, ejector marks tearing up your brass, rifle/carbine getting filthier than it should (at least compared to a normally functioning AR) thanks to increased blowback of crap into the works, possibly harsher/stiffer/sharper recoil, premature wear/tear on components like locking lugs, various functional failures like the bolt overriding the cartridge base and not feeding properly because of overgassing/increased cyclic rate/etc., etc., etc.

I'm sure I'm missing some, but that's the basics. Just remember, some "symptoms" of overgassing can be indicative of other issues (see above in this thread), so you have to really nail down the problem before you decide its (A) or (B) causing your issues.