bullet runout , dont get it ... help

[savagehunter44]

ok iv done everything known to man, the only problem i have with 30-06, not my 308 or others. can dirty case necks cause runout? i clean them with a case brush but thay are not perfectly shiney like new cases . reasion i ask is i dont have this problem with new brass. please HeLp !!!!

 

[427Cobra]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

All I do is brush the necks out, not polish, the left over grey residue aids in bullet release, since its only this caliber it maybe a crooked chamber, if so nothing will fix that except a new chamber.

 

[JGorski]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: savagehunter44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok iv done everything known to man, the only problem i have with 30-06, not my 308 or others. can dirty case necks cause runout? i clean them with a case brush but thay are not perfectly shiney like new cases . reasion i ask is i dont have this problem with new brass. please HeLp !!!!

</div></div>

Case necks that arent uniformly close will throw your concentricity off a bit, found that out today checking some hunting loads with my Hornady concentricity tool. The rounds that were out .005" out had case necks that were .007" out, the rounds that were less than .002" out, their case necks were only out about .004" out.

I was pleasantly surprised at how most of the rounds had very little runout, and this was with Rem brass, of course the rounds that were more than .003" were corrected by the Hornady tool, that thing is awesome!

 

[JGorski]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

How much runout are you getting?

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

every bit of. 005"

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I do is brush the necks out, not polish, the left over grey residue aids in bullet release, since its only this caliber it maybe a crooked chamber, if so nothing will fix that except a new chamber. </div></div> yeah im starting to think more of chamber problem. thinkin of rebarrel to 243 with savage varmint barrel. a good B&C stock , single shot follower. and have a good target/varmint gun. should be a cheep little build, maby a little paint too

 

[clmayfield]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

There are a lot of misconceptions about the thickness of dirt and dust. I have heard people say that they won't run zero headspace because if they get dirt in the chamber, it won't close. Not true. A layer of dust, dirt, or even carbon or copper fouling is far less than a thou. It is insignificant.

A layer of grime will not induce runout. And certainly not on the level of .005".

I don't think non-uniform neck thickness will contribute to that much runout. Maybe a half a thou to a thou and a half.

You are sizing your brass, when reloading, so it is likely not your chamber. Tell us about your set up. Are you neck-only sizing? Full length sizing? What kind of press do you have? How are you making adjustments? For .005", we need to know.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

My suggestion would be to load em up and pull the damn trigger. You spend all your time over thinking this stuff and trying to " perfect " your load, reloading becomes a chore. ITS NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECT Everbodys different , but I just load to ogive make notes and let her rip....

 

[clmayfield]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITS NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECT</div></div>

There is perfect... and then there is 5 thou of runout. If it were 2 - 3 thou, I would say don't worry about it, but 5 thou is quite a bit for handloaded ammo.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITS NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECT</div></div>

There is perfect... and then there is 5 thou of runout. If it were 2 - 3 thou, I would say don't worry about it, but 5 thou is quite a bit for handloaded ammo.</div></div>

What in the hell is runout ?? I got a 742 Remington 30-06 with a 3x9 Tasco that I hand load for that i can hit a paper plate with at 250 yards. Only thing running out is me.... Of bullets. At 100 I'm getting 2"groups Can't beat that with a 3rd wife's step son

 

[hlee]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

Runout is the deviation from perfect concentricity (roundness) when a cartridge is spun. Shooters and loaders concerned with runout are generally chasing precision substantially superior to 2" at 100y.

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

im usein a lee single stage press,rcbs FL sizing die,i dont bump shoulder till after 2 or 3rd firing. but just enough to close the bolt without resistance. the brand of brass dont matter,tryed them all . i dont have this problem with my 308. this is just nuts !

 

[JGorski]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Runout is the deviation from perfect concentricity (roundness) when a cartridge is spun. Shooters and loaders concerned with runout are generally chasing precision substantially superior to 2" at 100y. </div></div>

Indeed, Ive shot 742s that could do better than that at 200yds, obviously the straighter your bullet enters the rifling the more accurate it should be.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

A couple of things could be causing runout and .005 is more than you should be experiencing in a single stage setup. The most common causes of runout is variation in neck wall thickness and the when the expander is drawn through the sized neck. First I would check the runout on fired brass before it is sized. If there is variance at this point you may have a chamber issue. If not, the next step is to size your brass without the expander. If there is an increase in runout there is most likely an alignment issue between the die and the press. There are numerous posts on how to address. If the runout does not increase at this point, size the brass with the expander installed and check runout. If runout increases you have isolated the problem to a few variables. This could be the result of not enough lubrication inside the neck or excessive variation in neck wall thickness. If you have a ball micrometer measure the cases neck thickness and look for variations greater than .001. Cases with large variation in neck wall thickness will always be problematic and put them aside for plinking ammo.

I have found that polishing the expander ball and installing an O-ring on the expander stem between the die and lock ring lets the expander float in the die. Carbide expander balls also generally help.

For my bolt and single shot rifles I do not use an expander when sizing. I typically neck turn new brass and either FL or NS with bushing dies which allows keeps runout to a minimum usually less than .001.

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

fixin to snatch that expander ball and try it

 

[LawnMM]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITS NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECT</div></div>

There is perfect... and then there is 5 thou of runout. If it were 2 - 3 thou, I would say don't worry about it, but 5 thou is quite a bit for handloaded ammo.</div></div>

What in the hell is runout ?? I got a 742 Remington 30-06 with a 3x9 Tasco that I hand load for that i can hit a paper plate with at 250 yards. Only thing running out is me.... Of bullets. At 100 I'm getting 2"groups Can't beat that with a 3rd wife's step son </div></div>

Paper plates at 250 and 2" at 100 are great if that's what you want from your rifle. I'd be looking for a new barrel if I couldn't do better than 1" at 100 and strive to tune my load and keep my ability to a level that allows for .5" at 100 or better. Point being, there are those that want maximum potential, and checking runout may be worth it if you are one of those people.

Most of my rounds are within .001-.003 but there are enough falling in the .004-.005 range that its worth checking and fixing with a concentricity tool. I'm hoping the Giraud helps achieve more uniform trimming and in turn, less neck thickness variation, less runout, and more accuracy.

 

[rommelj]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: savagehunter44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im usein a lee single stage press,rcbs FL sizing die,i dont bump shoulder till after 2 or 3rd firing. but just enough to close the bolt without resistance. the brand of brass dont matter,tryed them all . i dont have this problem with my 308. this is just nuts ! </div></div>
Get a better reloading tools. Your run out problem will disappear.

 

[Squid284]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

If your fired cases also have .005" or more runout on the necks, the rifle/chamber is likely the problem. Otherwise it's somewhere in your reloading process or the cases themselves. Fired brass should be consistant as it they are reshaped in the same chamber.

Given your 308 handloads are OK, and you have a similar reloading setup for the 30-06, this is likely the culprit or something to ponder.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At 100 I'm getting 2"groups Can't beat that with a 3rd wife's step son</div></div>

I aim smaller than that. When I get a .75" 5-shot group at 100, I feel like turning the gun on myself. My long run average with handloads is .4" with a healthy portion of 5-shot groups in the 2's.

At 1,000 yards, I target sub-MOA. If you are starting at 2 MOA, you aren't going to get better with distance. So, yeah, we have different expectations/ requirements.

2" is plenty fine for deer hunting down a 200 yard sendero. That's just not the only thing I am doing.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At 100 I'm getting 2"groups Can't beat that with a 3rd wife's step son</div></div>

I aim smaller than that. When I get a .75" 5-shot group at 100, I feel like turning the gun on myself. My long run average with handloads is .4" with a healthy portion of 5-shot groups in the 2's.

At 1,000 yards, I target sub-MOA. If you are starting at 2 MOA, you aren't going to get better with distance. So, yeah, we have different expectations/ requirements.

Guys this was a joke. I shoot Ga Precisions with NF optics. I just wanted to see who would be the biggest jerk. Nobody was!! Gentlemen, thank you for being rational and polite.

2" is plenty fine for deer hunting down a 200 yard sendero. That's just not the only thing I am doing.</div></div>

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

AS,
i thought you just posted in the ballistics section that your GAP 6.5 Creedmore shot a ".750"roup at 500?

Pie plate at 250!
Get your runout down and tighten it up boy!

 

[steve123]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At 100 I'm getting 2"groups Can't beat that with a 3rd wife's step son</div></div>

I aim smaller than that. When I get a .75" 5-shot group at 100, I feel like turning the gun on myself. My long run average with handloads is .4" with a healthy portion of 5-shot groups in the 2's.

At 1,000 yards, I target sub-MOA. If you are starting at 2 MOA, you aren't going to get better with distance. So, yeah, we have different expectations/ requirements.

Guys this was a joke. I shoot Ga Precisions with NF optics. I just wanted to see who would be the biggest jerk. Nobody was!! Gentlemen, thank you for being rational and polite.

2" is plenty fine for deer hunting down a 200 yard sendero. That's just not the only thing I am doing.</div></div> </div></div>

Haha, that was kinda funny!

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AS,
i thought you just posted in the ballistics section that your GAP 6.5 Creedmore shot a ".750"roup at 500?

Pie plate at 250!
Get your runout down and tighten it up boy!</div></div>


520 Milo .... .75" at 520 yards

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

i think can solve the problem, just rebarr the freakin thang to 243 with a savage varmint barrel & a B&C stock , do thay make a medalist stock for the old savage

 

[arnie19]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

I have been getting consitant .003 and less runout by using a cast bullet shooters trick .Seat bullet just slightly ,then lower ram enough to get fingers on case and rotate it 180 degrees and seat almost all the way then rotate another 180 then seat all the way. Arnie

 

[clmayfield]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: arnie19</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been getting consitant .003 and less runout by using a cast bullet shooters trick .Seat bullet just slightly ,then lower ram enough to get fingers on case and rotate it 180 degrees and seat almost all the way then rotate another 180 then seat all the way. Arnie</div></div>

I tried this. Didn't improve runout.

 

[mclevela]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

I would guess a combination of necks not being concentric and your reloading press setup.

On the upstroke of your press ram you are forcing the outside of the neck to be round \ concentric & neck thickness irregularity is forced to the inside of the neck.
On the down stroke the expander ball forces the irregularity back to the outside of the neck.

If you find that sizing with out the expander ball produces brass with less runout but still need the expander ball to produce a neck with less bullet tension, reinsert the expander ball assy to the die and run the brass over it on the upstroke, this seems to be the lesser of two evils and does not distort the neck as pulling over the expander ball.

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help


{ If you find that sizing with out the expander ball produces brass with less runout but still need the expander ball to produce a neck with less bullet tension, reinsert the expander ball assy to the die and run the brass over it on the upstroke, this seems to be the lesser of two evils and does not distort the neck as pulling over the expander ball.}

well thats different, never herd of that before

 

[JGorski]

Re: bullet runout , dont get it ... help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: arnie19</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been getting consitant .003 and less runout by using a cast bullet shooters trick .Seat bullet just slightly ,then lower ram enough to get fingers on case and rotate it 180 degrees and seat almost all the way then rotate another 180 then seat all the way. Arnie</div></div>

I tried this. Didn't improve runout. </div></div>

I seat all of my bullets that way, the other day I checked my deer hunting shells, 308 & 30-06 and some were nice and tight, but a couple were out about .004 to .005", one of my 06 shells had a runout of .0005",(yes, thats 5/10,000") I seat those with a Lee seater. I like the fact that I can correct any runout with my Hornady concentricity tool.

And of course your necks need to be fairly concentric, also.

 

[Known]

{ If you find that sizing with out the expander ball produces brass with less runout but still need the expander ball to produce a neck with less bullet tension, reinsert the expander ball assy to the die and run the brass over it on the upstroke, this seems to be the lesser of two evils and does not distort the neck as pulling over the expander ball.}

well thats different, never herd of that before

I do the same thing. I neck size first using my Redding competition neck sizing die with the proper bushing. Next, I size the body using the Type S full length sizing die without the bushing (since I've already neck sized). As I have the expander (carbide) installed in the full length die, it expands the necks on the upstroke.

Since my case necks get dented and I don't turn my necks, I elect to use the expander. When using the correct bushing, the expander doesn't expand the neck that much but it does ensure more consistent neck tension. I'd rather have the expander take care of any irregularities instead of the bullet. Zediker in his book on competition reloading recommends the use of the expander for the same reason.

I came across this techique in a search for more consistent headspace of resized brass. Separating the neck sizing from the body sizing and expanding necks on the upstroke seems to yield more consistent results. At the same time I noticed an improvement in concentricity too. Only downside is I add an extra step to my reloading.

As a side note, I tried sizing my necks in two stages but didn't notice any improvement in concentricity. As such, I just neck size in one step. However, I did confirm that sizing the necks in one step does result in a final neck diameter that is smaller than the final bushing size. This needs to be taken into account if sizing in two steps (the final bushing will need to be smaller to get the same neck tension).

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Are we talkin about a bone stock Savage? Crooked chamber.

 

[Aimsmall55]

AS,
i thought you just posted in the ballistics section that your GAP 6.5 Creedmore shot a ".750"roup at 500?

Pie plate at 250!
Get your runout down and tighten it up boy!

Haha... I completely forgot about this thread. I was screwing with ya miles. My dad thought it would be funny to post that and see what people's reactions were.

 

[Bob 964]

I starting using a 2-stage process, first using my Lee collet die to size the neck and then using my Redding body die to size the case body and bump the shoulder. I have loaded probably 100 or so rounds using this process and none of the cartridges has (total) runout above .002", measured near the case shoulder, on the neck and on the bearing surface. The overwhelming majority of the cartridges measure in the .000" - .001" range. This is a marked improvement over any single-stage sizing process I have used. I'm sold on this and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking to reduce measured runout.

 

[Known]

I starting using a 2-stage process, first using my Lee collet die to size the neck and then using my Redding body die to size the case body and bump the shoulder. I have loaded probably 100 or so rounds using this process and none of the cartridges has (total) runout above .002", measured near the case shoulder, on the neck and on the bearing surface. The overwhelming majority of the cartridges measure in the .000" - .001" range. This is a marked improvement over any single-stage sizing process I have used. I'm sold on this and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking to reduce measured runout.

I've heard a lot of folks using the Lee collet die in this manner. Did you modify the mandrel to get tighter neck tension or are you leaving as is? Are you shooting a bolt gun?

 

[Bob 964]

I've heard a lot of folks using the Lee collet die in this manner. Did you modify the mandrel to get tighter neck tension or are you leaving as is? Are you shooting a bolt gun?

I did sand the mandrel just a bit and experiment with how far the die was screwed into the press to achieve consistent 0.001-0.002" tension. Yes, I am shooting a Savage 110FP bolt gun.

 

[Aimsmall55]

If Lee would put a tension micrometer on their collet die, or some kind of indicator as to just how much tension your putting on the brass so you could come back and duplicate it if you HAD to move the die ... it would be thr best die ever made. That in conjunction with a redding body die would be Awsome

 

[1slow01z71]

Whats so great about the redding body die?

 

[justinbaker]

Whats so great about the redding body die?

Doesn't touch the neck, only bumps the shoulder

 

[Known]

Doesn't touch the neck, only bumps the shoulder

The Redding neck sizing dies can be purchased with a body die. Some folks will neck size and then push the shoulder back .001-.002 with the body die. Others will neck size only and use the body die every 3rd or 4th firing when the case becomes difficult to chamber.

By removing the bushing from my full length die I essentially have a body die that has an expander ball. A regular body die will not let you use an expander ball.

 

[JGorski]

What are you guys using to measure your runout? I have the Hornady tool and Ive noticed when I tried using the smallest spindle my runout was terrible, like almost .007",(308WIN) when I went to the largest spindle the runout dropped to .003",(This morning w/lapua brass). The 10 shells I loaded tonight(Win brass) had no more than .0015" runout, a few had almost zero, and from a Hornady seater die, too.

 

[Known]

What are you guys using to measure your runout? I have the Hornady tool and Ive noticed when I tried using the smallest spindle my runout was terrible, like almost .007",(308WIN) when I went to the largest spindle the runout dropped to .003",(This morning w/lapua brass). The 10 shells I loaded tonight(Win brass) had no more than .0015" runout, a few had almost zero, and from a Hornady seater die, too.

I use the Sinclair tool:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...s/sinclair-concentricity-gauge-prod37479.aspx

It's hard to make comparisons with the concentricity measurements that folks share because they vary by the tool used and where on the cartridge the measurements were taken.

 

[SporterII]

I just want to come back and read this [some of it] over again.

 

[Known]

So I just got a Forster Co-ax press and started to experiment with two stage neck sizing. That press sure produces some concentric cases.

I'm loading .308 with Lapua brass and they come out of the rifle at .344 - .345 neck diameter. I'm neck sizing with the .339 bushing first and then .335. Whenever any runout is introduced (.001 at most) it is always when I do the second neck sizing with the .335 bushing. With my Redding Competition neck sizer I can adjust the portion of the neck that is sized. The .335 bushing is .001 higher on the neck than the .339 bushing so I don't have the .335 bushing trying to resize beyond where the .339 bushing stopped. I'll see if going .002 higher might help.

The final stage if full length sizing to bump back the shoulder and that never introduces runout. I'm using the carbide expander on the upstroke and it just touches the inside of the case neck.