F T/R Competition Bullets Brass ETC

[b_4]

I am going to begin load development for my Savage 12 F/TR. I know several shooters on here are experienced with this rifle (30 inch barrel 1/12 twist).

I will use CCI benchrest primers however I need to select brass, bullet and powder.

(1) I am considering the Sierra Matchking HPBT however I have no idea which weight is best for this rifle (155 or 168)?

(2) Brass...Lapua or Winchester (or other)? I will be full length resizing until I get more aquainted with reloading. I realize I will probably be trimming the brass with this technique.

(3) Powder. I have heard a lot about Varget but outside of that I am clueless.

My interest is in getting the most precision for the dollar. Since I am new to F-Class and long range shooting, other than the time put into developing a load (finding max, ladder testing etc) I am sure that I do not need the highest end components at this time. I realize there is a reloading forum but I wanted to post this here due to the rifle and purpose of the reload.

Thanks!

Ben

Edit: (4) Is a chronometer really necessary? It seems like a fun gadget but I am curious if it is really a necessity.

 

[USFTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

(1) Berger 155.5 if you want something easy and forgiving.
(2) Either, but I prefer Lapua.
(3) Varget.
(4) It is REALLY nice to have. At least know someone with a chrono you can use.

 

[Al_Ski]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

I wouldn't ignore using Wolf primers.

1) 155.5 Bergers, Sierra's would be way down on my list.
2) Lots of people I know use Winchester and shoot well.
3) Varget, Varget and Varget. In that order. RL15 is a good substitute though it has it's own issues.

Beg or borrow a chrono. While the final proof is the target it's nice to know what is going on speed-wise.

 

[Philt1]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

1)You need to see what your rifle likes (every rifle if different)

2) Lapua - will last you

3) Varget

4 ICC BR2 - Good combo with Varget (Hear good things about Wolf too )

5) Chrono

These are high quality components and not cheap, you can take my word and just get the best you can afford and SAVE you some money and time

GL , In your journey ")

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(1) Berger 155.5 if you want something easy and forgiving.
(2) Either, but I prefer Lapua.
(3) Varget.
(4) It is REALLY nice to have. At least know someone with a chrono you can use. </div></div>

+1 on pretty much everything here. I'm personally a bit more partial to the Winchester brass as it has better case capacity, but both brands are winners.

All in all, some good advice on here.

Darrell

 

[RStewart]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(1) Berger 155.5 if you want something easy and forgiving.
(2) Either, but I prefer Lapua.
(3) Varget.
(4) It is REALLY nice to have. At least know someone with a chrono you can use. </div></div>

I concur with this. The only caveat is I'm doing some work with IMR 8208 XBR and it looks good. But, for now, I would recommend Varget as the go-to powder.

 

[sarge7174]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

What twist is your barrel? My 30 inch is a 1 in 11,and really likes the Berger 155.5,Lapua brass and Varget powder. I've been using 46 grains and the groups are great. Also,I've shot Wolf primers for a long time,they always go bang,and you can find them for 16 bucks a 1,000 if you look around.

 

[RCSavager]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

With all due respect to the OP and anybody else who ever asked this question...

You just spent HOW much on this gun? How much on the glass? How much in rails, rings, bipods, bags, gun case, Krylon paint in some cases.... ALL THAT MONEY!! And the first things guys want to do is save $20 on brass. /facepalm

Post count isn't the cause of my post. It' the absolute LUNACY I see in thousands down the drain on a gun that'll never shoot anything more than cheap store stock ammo or the cheapest ammo supplies they can buy and still not hide their faces at the counter. What was the point of all that money on a gun just to screw yourself by buying shit ammo for it. Might as well pick up a rock and throw it. /sigh

Answers:
1) Your gun will tell you, try several in that range as 1in12 likes a lighter bullet in that particular weight range.

2)Lapua, how much was the gun again?

3) Varget, Varget and Varget, when you run out go buy more.

4) Bottom line is that no one here can really answer your questions. Only your gun can. Ask it nicely and give it what it wants. Otherwise you're just tossing money at a problem that money can't fix.

 

[USFTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Well, I've dealt with enough new people shooting Savage 12FTR to know about what the rifle is going to like. The specific charge amount may vary but I fully stand by Berger 155.5, Lapua or Win case, and Varget as I have noted above. I have yet to see a 12 FTR not like this combination. Again, amount of Varget varies.

 

[cjmill87]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

usftr,

For someone just starting out and starting to work on loads, what would be a good starting point as far as a Varget load with Winchester brass for the Berger 155.5s in a Savage 12FTR?

 

[TCKev]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

This is a relly good place to start.

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cjmill87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For someone just starting out and starting to work on loads, what would be a good starting point as far as a Varget load with Winchester brass for the Berger 155.5s in a Savage 12FTR? </div></div>

Cjmill,

In a Winchester case, with 155.5's in a Model 12 F-T/R, I'd personally start at 46.0 grains of Varget and work up from there in .2 - .3 grain increments till you start to see the beginnings of pressure signs. Somewhere in there you will find at least one load, maybe two.

Darrell

 

[cjmill87]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Darrell,

Thank you very much appreciate the input from a pro.

Chris

 

[Coyotejunki]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

That is interesting.

I just started load development in my rifle with almost the same loads, except using Lapua brass. 45.5 grs of Varget gives me real nice groups at 100. Now I need to shoot some distance, and hopefully my groups will stay nice.

I was hoping to reach the lands with my loads, but unfortunately with my chamber, touching the lands only gives me about .070" of bullet seated in the case.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

1. 155 Lapua
2. Lapua
3. Varget
4. CED Millennium 2 - A chronograph is an absolute must have. It will allow you to track velocities for ballistic calculations. But more important you will see ES and be able to monitor SD on your loads. Monitoring ES and SD will allow you to see which primer/powder combinations provide the best consistency. There are other variables which affect consistency as well.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Hey All,

I just got a PM question, and it's a good one, so I'll share!

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #660000">If all things are equal (powder load/brand/amount/etc., bullet brand/weight/demensions, primer), what differences can you expect to see in performance when the only factor being changed is simply the brass, from a premium brass to a more inferior brass, and why would the brass cause a change in performance? I understand the nuances of the other factors and how they can change performance, I'm just lost on the performance issues of brass. Also, for example, if you were to take a new Lapua, Winchester, and Lake City casing and fire them each one time from the same rifle chamber, then reload them, would the second load be more comparable in performance due to the expansion and reforming to the same chamber dimensions? I've seen where a lot of people say that they fire their brass at least once before actually loading for a competitive round, would this be what they are referring to?</span></span>

My response:

<span style="color: #000099">There are a couple of differences between a piece of "premium" brass and "inferior" brass. Primarily, these differences are in dimension tolerances, ie. repeatability in dimensions from one piece of brass in a lot to the next. *Generally*, the more expensive brass has tighter tolerances. Another difference is in the metallurgy. "Factory" brass like Federal, Hornady, Nosler, etc. can be "soft" to "very soft", and therefore will not stand up well to the repeated firing/reloading cycle of handloads, even if they produce good accuracy on their initial firing. The other main difference between brass of different manufacturers is case volume (directly proportional to case wall thickness). Three "good wearing" brands (Lapua, Winchester, and Lake City) have *wildly* different case volumes. This will affect what powder charge your load will require in order to achieve a given muzzle velocity (if it's even possible to do so). The Winchester case volume is *much* greater than the Lapua (~1.75 grains of H2O volume greater), the Lapua is in turn *much* more roomy inside than the Lake City. I would expect to have very different loads (all other variables held constant) for each of these types of brass.

The other factor you brought up is "fire-forming" cases. Many guys will fire-form their cases before using them in a major match. Firing a load out of a case will have the brass expand/flow to conform to the walls of your chamber. New brass will be significantly undersized (usually SAAMI minimums), and can be less than consistent as regards volume. Once you fire the case, it will retain the chamber dimension (minus a couple of thousandths shrinkage). If you only neck-size your brass, it will not have to fully re-conform to the chamber dimensions again, and the energy from the expanding gas will not have to be diverted into forming brass to match the chamber. It will be fully utilized in propelling the bullet out the bore. Your muzzle velocities should go up (slightly), and your standard deviations of muzzle velocity should drop somewhat.

While fire-forming is generally a good idea if you can, don't think that this is a hard and fast requirement. The brass I won the Irish Nationals with last June was virgin Winchester brass</span>

Hope this helps,

Darrell

 

[siracusap]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

So a follow up question for you Darrell. If only neck sizing do you use a bushing bump die that bumps the shoulder as well or do you eventually break down and full length size the brass? Or maybe you toss the brass before it gets to that point? I shot an entire F-Class season last year without full length sizing and just out of curiosity tried to full length size the case and couldn't, either because the case body had been expanded too much or the brass was too hard after that many firings. Maybe both. I've also had people tell me that even though I'm bumping the shoulder, eventually that brass will need to be full length sized or at some point I won't be able to extract the case because there won't be any springback from the chamber walls. However I was able to get 12-13 firings and haven't run into any issues *yet*.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

I group all of my brass in "batches" of 400-500 cases. All of the cases in a batch will have the same number of firings on them. After several firings, you can tell when the batch needs to be bumped; when the loaded round doesn't chamber "butter smooth". I make a note, and all of that batch will get bumped in the next reloading cycle. Alternately, you can use an inexpensive headspace gauge to tell when your headspace has grown enough to need bumping back. Generally there is no need (for performance match brass) to be bumped more that 2.5-3.0/1000".

I have had a custom bump die made by Redding. It does not affect the walls of the fired case, or the neck, it only pushes on the shoulder of the case. If a batch of cases needs bumping, I will do this as a separate process from the neck-sizing. I have had issues with size consistency when trying to combine the two processes.

Even with the high pressures that I'm running my competition rounds with (155.5 grain Bergers running 3110+ fps), I am still getting 8+ reloads out of Winchester brass. It is possible that I might get more life out of the brass if I were to get into annealing, but as my brass' mode of failure tends to be loosening primer pockets, probably not. If you are getting 12+ reloads out of your cases, and your mode of failure for your brass is neck tension, etc. annealing may be a benefit for you.

If all your brass is dedicated to a specific rifle, and you bump the headspace back as required and only use a neck-size die otherwise, I can't see why you would ever need to full-length size.

Hope this helps,

Darrell

 

[USFTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Darrell-

I FL size every time. In 2007, I tried neck sizing only and ran into problems chambering during a match. The base just needed a little more space. After that test, I never neck sized again. I also use a body die first to FL size and then neck size in two separate operations for consistency.

Jeff

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Hey Jeff,

I am running a factory Savage chamber (.308 Obermeyer), so maybe that's a small difference? I have been neck sizing only for many thousands of competition rounds and have never had a problem.

I am neck sizing in only one step. From a fired neck OD of ~.343 to sized OD of ~.330-.331 for Winchester brass, .336 for Lapua brass. Again, I've never had a problem.

<span style="font-style: italic">Whoops, just re-read your post. I completely agree, separating any body-sizing/shoulder bumping and neck-sizing steps.</span>

YMMV I guess.

Darrell

 

[siracusap]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Good stuff gents, much appreciated. Actually I had read Jeff's brass preparation routine on the Sinclair blog and that was the reason I was even thinking about trying full length sizing. Right now I'm just using the Forster bushing bump die which bumps the shoulder and only partially size the neck. Like your Redding die, it doesn't touch the case walls. I've never ran into any chambering/extraction issues but didn't want the first time to be in a match. Initially my logic for not full length sizing was that if the case body runout was minimal and the necks were turned, that the more of the case that was left untouched then the better the bullet would be aligned in the throat (even with a bit of springback). It appears that might not be a significant factor though since top shooters use both methods.

Thanks for sharing your methods.

 

[USFTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

My load then was also 210 Berger BT and N550 loaded really hot. My chamber then wasn't all that tight. It just didn't work for me and it doesn't seem to hurt my performance to FL size.

 

[siracusap]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Jeff,

How many firings did you have on your neck sized brass when you had the chambering issues? I've been using Lapua and anneal the necks after each firing but the case body seems pretty rigid. If Darrel is getting rid of his Winchester brass at around 8 firings maybe he hasn't run into any issues because it occurs at a higher number (with an equivalent load). Also, were you not able to chamber the round or was it just tight?I've noticed that when chambering my rounds they are tight going in, but have had no issues on extraction.

 

[USFTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

Back then, who knows. I didn't know enough to keep track of that data. I can go back to my log book and see a lot of data that I didn't think to collect.
Honestly, all I can remember is that I had problems with chambering. Sorry, but my memory is horrible. I tell my students that if it isn't in writing, it didn't happen!

 

[XTR]

Re: Bullets Brass ETC

I typically only neck size. I had a problem in one match and later determined that I had accidentally gotten 5 or 10 cases that had been fired in a rifle with a stock Remington barrel got mixed in the batch.

After than I FL resized all my brass just to make sure I didn't have any more problems, but since then I'm back to neck sizing.

I bump shoulders with a Forster bushing bump die and for my WW brass I 'm using a Lee collet sizer, since I don't turn necks it noticeably improved my up and down consistency.