Bullets extremely difficult to pull - poor lot accuracy.

[Ryguy]

From the beginning: I developed an accurate load with acceptable velocity and acceptable SD/ES numbers. The load is well below max and shows no sign of pressure, velocity is on the slow side of normal. I loaded up about 75 rounds and hit the range this morning. Upon arriving to the range, I attempted to verify a 100 yard zero only to discover cratered primers, sticky bolt lift, erratic velocity, and 1.5 MOA groups. I went back home to diagnose the problem. I realized I did not set the shoulder back at all on the entire lot so I went to pull the bullets with a Hornady puller die. Here comes the problem. The bullets were extremely difficult to pull, requiring nearly all of my strength to lower the press ram. I had to stand up, move into the dead lift position and use my leg and back strength to get the bullet out. The bullets were horribly scarred and ruined from the die jaws having to be so tight. I am surprised I did not break the shell holder or tear the brass, as I have done before with a stuck case. Come to think of it, I could have just seated the bullet a little deeper first, but that does not explain why the bullet was so very difficult to get out. This explains why pressure and accuracy were erratic and raises the question why the bullet was so stuck. Even with extra tight neck tension (these were not) the bullet still comes out with only moderate effort.

Now to my practices: I de-primed the cases and tumbled in corncob media for about 2 hours then used a cage to separate the media. I lubed the inside and outside of the necks with Hornady One-Shot and lubed the rest of the case with Unique lube. I full length sized (no bump), primed, charged, and seated the bullet. The range showed terrible results.

How is it the bullet got so stuck? Could the Frankfort Arsenal "case shine" additive have a gluing effect? Collaterally, could a lack of a shoulder bump cause such poor accuracy?

Thank you all.

 

[Pakratt99]

How much neck tension are you running? Even with a TON of neck tension they should never be that tight so it could be your case shine causing sticktion? And yes, lack of case shoulder bump will cause inconsistent base to Datum which is a HUGE detriment to accuracy as pressure build within the entire system is inconsistent.

 

[spife7980]

If you didn't bump then you just partial neck sized or maybe the rest of the case somewhat. I guess it's possible you squeezed enough to push the case shoulders forwards but then they would have been difficult to chamber, not just extract. And it doesn't explain why your necks are so tight. When I began annealing that caused my necks to be super rough during expander ball extraction and graphite live and a carbide expander cured that I'll. It didn't cause excessive seating pressures that I noticed.

Its not possible that you ran a 308 up into a 260 die or something it is?

Have you cleaned? I know when I neck sized only and got down in the sand a grain or two would inevitably end up in the chamber filling the already minimal amount of clearance making it a total bitch to extract. But that was the case body and not the neck or bullet. Maybe it's a carbon ring that's causing excessive pressures or you set your micrometer seater setting to to 1.2 instead of .12 or something like that? But that would have been difficult to chamber to start with.

Strange problem. Measure everything.

 

[Deadshot2]

How many firings on the cases? I find myself just annealing after every firing to make sure that when sizing I have uniform "spring-back".
I also don't use the expander "ball" in my Sizing die. Just leave the de-priming rod in place and then expand as a separate operation using a Sinclair Mandrel Expander Die.

This process gives me cases that accept bullets when seating require the same effort, case after case. My preference is to use the Sinclair "Oversize" expander which is designed to be used with their neck turning mandrel.

Every once in a while one can run into cases that have thicker necks than usual. This is the case when forming cases from other calibers (like 6.5 Creedmoor from .308) and the neck wasn't turned enough.

Lately I've also started using a Wilson Neck Reamer. It's quite an eye-opener when you use it on a fired case (per instructions). With the case supported in a Wilson Case Holder and placed on a Wilson/Sinclair trimmer, use the reamer to make sure there is sufficient clearance between neck and chamber with a bullet seated so pressure spikes aren't created.

I just cycled through 250 pieces of new Hornady brass, reaming the necks of each fired case. Some required no effort and others from the same batch required some serious effort (the tool is thumb/forefinger powered) to clean out the thick spots.

FWIW, accuracy has climbed measurably with the cases processed this way as well as SD/ES dropping into the low single digits. Perhaps to the point where the numbers are merely shifting due to the intrinsic accuracy of the chronograph.

I used to just turn the necks just enough to skim the high spots off. I find that using the reamer yields straighter necks and if you order the reamer directly from L. E. Wilson they will grind it to any diameter you want. I just used their off the shelf size for 6.5mm and it gives me .003" total (.0015/side) clearance with a bullet seated.

 

[Sheldon N]

I don't think the shoulder bump has anything to do with pressure. If you didn't notice massive pressure when seating the bullets then that seems to rule out a mechanical problem with excessive neck tension. If it was a problem with donuts I don't think that would appear in your bullet pulling issues, that would require external constriction on the case body and neck at the same time you were pulling the bullets.

I think your "gluing" theory may be the best option. Did the bullets seem to break free suddenly when you were pulling them?

 

[usafa77]

Could the One Shot in the neck be the problem?

 

[Ryguy]

I think your "gluing" theory may be the best option. Did the bullets seem to break free suddenly when you were pulling them?

They did break free somewhat like you suggest. It felt like pulling a big nail out of pine with that sort of squeaking sound and feel. I bet it was a combination of clean necks with a little corn cob dust in there creating friction, like a pitchers resin bag. I wonder why the One-Shot didn't stay slickery after seating. Thanks again.

 

[Conrad]

Do you always use the "cage" to separate the media, tell us more about this cage. Could it have scratched up case mouths, etc? I have a bottle of that Frankford Arsenal case polish, and it has never been a problem. If you had said you were cleaning for hours with STM or trying to do some kind of bullet coating I think we'd have a culprit, but nothing you're doing really raises a flag, yet. Were the bullets scratched where they had been sitting inside of the case neck? Have any pictures of both bullets and cases?

 

[Conrad]

Corn cob typically doesn't get necks perfectly clean, and will actually leave some carbon that tends to be naturally pretty slick.

 

[prcomte]

Difficulty pulling bullets is due to excessive neck tension. If you can even call it that at that point. What dies do you use? Do you use an expander ball with them? Do you have a micrometer that can measure the O.D of a loaded round vs a a sized empty case to check 'neck tension'?


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[Ryguy]

OP here. Yes, I was using the expander ball in a set of Hornady dies. I never do otherwise only this time I was necking down 6.5 brass to 6 and it happened to be very accurate so I left it. Maybe the working of the brass without annealing over several firings made the necks super tight. I have a bushing die on order and the trimmer holder should be here today. I am going to anneal and start over from scratch. Frustrating like hell.

 

[jim10801]

Your Hornady bullet puller, it is their collet type puller? Make sure the collet is gripping the bullet only. If you get the mouth of the case into the collet you will in effect be giving the case a rolled crimp at the same time that you are trying to pull the bullet. You will end up just like you described try to work the bullet press arm.
Don't ask how I know.
The Hornady collet bullet puller is a great tool and it does not require much of the bullet to grab onto (just a small part of the major diameter) or much grip pressure to smoothly and cleanly remove the bullet. Done right the pulled bullet will hardly be marked.

 

[lash]

Wait. Did you say you were necking down from 6.5 this time? If you did not neck turn or even check you I.D. afterwards, you probably added a ton more neck tension to that bullet. When you neck down, you thicken the neck, leaving less space for the bullet.

Also, it is a good idea to always lightly inside chamfer your cases after tumble to keep scoring to a minimum.

 

[Ryguy]

Wait. Did you say you were necking down from 6.5 this time?

.
That is correct sir. These casings were on their third firing. The sequence went from 6.5 once fired to 6mm then fired in my chamber twice, now this difficult group was going to be #4. They are Prime casings. I have never worked with Prime before.

If you did not neck turn or even check you I.D. afterwards, you probably added a ton more neck tension to that bullet.

The necks measured .015-.016 so I figured that is about right for a SAAMI chamber. Neck tension was set right at .002.

Also, it is a good idea to always lightly inside chamfer your cases after tumble to keep scoring to a minimum.

That is not something I have ever done and is a great idea. Thank you.

 

[lash]

Okay, so that helps to know. Did you check case length to make sure that they didn't grow too much? It's not a very likely scenario on just three firings, but it is something I would check if in your situation.

I have started using some Prime cases for my .260 loads and so far have been pretty happy with the results, but I do anneal every other loading to maintain consistent neck tension. I not saying that that is your problem, just that it is what I do.

 

[Ryguy]

OP again. Annealing the cases didnt help with accuracy today. Who knows why they were so hard to pull but it doesnt matter anymore.

One of the Benchrest shooters at the range today said to clean the barrel and remove any possibility of a carbon ring. Lets see if that helps.

 

[Conrad]

I can't say I follow in how cleaning the barrel is going to help a bullet welding issue. I've inadvertently had to pull bullets at one time and found them set in the brass that were incredibly difficult to pull. They were had not set loaded for a long time either, more like the day before. Pulling them left bad vertical striations down the bullet. It would be interesting to see a picture of your pulled bullet. Sometimes if you over anneal brass can get sticky. Annealing can also leave behind some debris that might have burned off in the necks. This could be gouging bullets and setting them tight. I always nylon brush necks after annealing.

 

[Ryguy]

I can't say I follow in how cleaning the barrel is going to help a bullet welding issue.

I agree. I annealed the cases and accuracy didn't improve. Now I am on the the accuracy matter after concluding it was not the bullet/case junction, although I still find that strange. The benchrest shooter explained how a carbon ring can develop at the end of the throat, the portion of the chamber where there is a gap between the case mouth and the beginning of the lands. The ring swages the bullet as it passes. Pressure increases and accuracy becomes terrible. We will see here in a few hours.

 

[jim10801]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, methinks the problem with the hard bullet pulling was the result of the Hornady collet bullet puller being improperly set up, as posted above. If the cartridge is inserted to far up into the collet, the collet will grab the case neck and squeeze it into the bullet that you are trying to pull. It becomes next to impossible to pull the bullet.
It took a lot of force for the OP to remove the bullet by hand. If the bullet was 'welded' into the case as has been suggested, what would have been the results had the round actually been chambered and fired?
He apparently seated the bullets without issue. These same cases and bullets had been used previously without a problem. The accuracy issue, IMHO, is unrelated to the bullet pulling problem. Again, check the setup of the bullet puller.

 

[918v]

If you use the correct collet for the caliber, then you cannot run the case too far into the collet so it grabs the case neck. The case mouth will bottom out against the collet mouth.

I vote the bullet welding theory.

 

[Ryguy]

If you use the correct collet for the caliber, then you cannot run the case too far into the collet so it grabs the case neck. The case mouth will bottom out against the collet mouth.

I vote the bullet welding theory.

Yes, the collet was set up correctly. There are a few forum discussions about extremely difficult to pull bullets, none of them discuss a definitive cause. This was not the only problem because accuracy only improves slightly when I annealed the cases. Why accuracy would go from .33 to 2.5 within 20 rounds and one reloading session is beyond me. Scope rings, base, scale, calipers, dies, same powder lot, etc, all good.

 

[918v]

Try brushing the inside of the neck with a bronze brush after sizing. This will get all the crap out and you will have metal on metal contact. Should eliminate the bullet gluing issue.