Rifle Scopes Bump for choice made/update in last post: Specific scope choice question related to "older eyes"

[dobervol]

Hello from Middle-TN. As they say on radio talk shows, “long time, first time”. I’m relatively new to the long range accuracy game, and I have a fairly specific question, which is NOT intended to re-start any Mil/MOA, or 2FP/FFP debates.

Though only about 50, I’ve got old eyes a few yr. early, & I’m having trouble seeing the reticle at all on lowest power on even a $3k FFP scope, and I wanted to ask you fine folks something before setting down the kind of money I am for a total rig in the neighborhood of $10k, rifle and optic included.

As relevant background, after searching here a few years ago, I decided it would be best for me to learn beginner-level long range on a .308/traditional M24-type stock/MOA/2FP scope, on the idea that I not only might need to know it regardless, it should make any later use of FFP scopes easier, the only point being I know how to do the extra step in the math, and the other limitations of that system. So here's the relevant criteria.

New rifle: Purchasing a Barrett MRAD in next couple weeks; only decision left to make is carbon or fluted barrel.
Cartridge: 300 WM
Purpose: hunting at mostly 50-200m, and ringing steel/shooting precision rifle at 1,000m.
Preference: fairly high-power variable, most likely 25 on the high end, but looking at 20-30 range.
Budget: $2,500.00-ish, but looking $2-3k.

So it seems like my choice is deal with the 2FP limitations and have a reticle I can at least see throughout the entire range, or buy an FFP scope but just leave it on high power (in which case, I can’t hunt with it on the gun, and aren’t I just paying variable-power money for what amounts to a fixed power for me?).

After searching, I keep seeing posts here (and on the main competing site which shall remain nameless) saying that the reticle choice makes a huge difference, so thus the question: Can you recommend a FFP reticle that has high low-power visibility, plus won’t cover my target on high-power? Or am I correct in thinking that for my situation, I’m better off saving some money and sticking with a 2FP scope?

For reference on what I like, I’m really fond of the Steiner SCR reticle, but having looked through even an S&B PMII FFP reticle (friend who shoots F-class) I couldn’t see at all at low power unless I had perfect lighting and the perfect background, I fear pulling the trigger on an expensive scope without some advice, since shops don’t stock glass that expensive, and I only know the one guy who has a scope that good. I’m sure I could probably see S-B’s P4FL reticle, for example, but will such a simple reticle help me ring steel or hit a 10” circle at 1,000 yards?

Thanks in advance to any of you fine folks who can offer me some suggestions.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

There are no sfp limitations in your situation. How bad is your eyesight anyway?

 

[Rob01]

Ask yourself how much time you will be spending on the lowest power. If a lot then you might need a lower powered scope anyways. If you are buying a 5-25x scope and spending most of your time at 5x then you have the wrong optic. Yes the FFP reticles are hard to see at the lowest powers but I rarely use them below about 8x and I can see them fine there and up. If you put the illumination on it helps seeing the reticle on the lowest power and for a 50-200 yard hunting shot should work just fine.

You just need to ask yourself what you need in an optic and what you want to give up. I will give up using a reticle for holds at it's lowest power over not being able to use it on any power all day long but you need to figure out what works for you and where you need to be for power.

 

[dobervol]

Culpeper: "How bad is your eyesight anyway?"

OK at a distance when wearing glasses, but am going to have to breakdown and get bifocals for reading. Also, due to astigmatism, on a good day, I'm probably 20-20 corrected, but more usually, I'm about 20-25 corrected, at distance. Uncorrected, I'm quite sure I'm legally blind, as I'm over 20/200 in each eye without glasses, and because I have Crohn's disease, an auto-immune disorder of the intestines, I'm not a candidate for LASIK surgery.

 

[dobervol]

Ask yourself how much time you will be spending on the lowest power. If a lot then you might need a lower powered scope anyways. If you are buying a 5-25x scope and spending most of your time at 5x then you have the wrong optic. Yes the FFP reticles are hard to see at the lowest powers but I rarely use them below about 8x and I can see them fine there and up. If you put the illumination on it helps seeing the reticle on the lowest power and for a 50-200 yard hunting shot should work just fine.

You just need to ask yourself what you need in an optic and what you want to give up. I will give up using a reticle for holds at it's lowest power over not being able to use it on any power all day long but you need to figure out what works for you and where you need to be for power.

In all honesty, probably about 85-90% of the time at 25x, and 10-15% of the time at low power. I spend a LOT more time at the range than I do hunting.

 

[Rob01]

I am 51 and have an astigmatism and bifocals too. I set my scopes up with the reticle focused for my far vision as that is the part of the glasses I look through.

 

[Rob01]

In all honesty, probably about 85-90% of the time at 25x, and 10-15% of the time at low power. I spend a LOT more time at the range than I do hunting.

Then sounds like you need to figure if you want the FFP usage of the reticle on any power or the SFP usage of a more visible reticle at the lowest power.

 

[dobervol]

I think I'm probably good with being able to see the reticle at 8x. I'm embarrassed to admit I never bothered to look through my friend's S-B at low-mid power, just high and low.

I know everything is a compromise at this point. So I probably will wind up with an FFP on this scope, since I'll have the advantage of full use from 15 power on up, and then an expensive hunting rifle in a year or so with a 2FP in a lower powered variable. And my wife will kill me. Still, I find as I get older that I have less and less interest in keeping a ton of guns for the sake of having a well-rounded collection, as I do having fewer, but more-expensive guns/optics which are exactly what I want and will actually use. So maybe if I sell off enough guns/scopes to offset a second gun/scope combo for next year, I'll survive.

 

[Citius7]

I run my scopes around 12x for most everything I'm doing. Whether it's PRS or target shooting. I would think I'd hunt the same. Eye box is nice and forgiving and reticle is there and usable in my FFP. Mine goes to 29x but I'm never there FOV waayyy too narrow. Hope you find something that suits you. If you don't need the drop reticle the Minox zp5 with the MR5 reticle is really nice. The reticle is super easy to pick up on even for "struggling eyes"

 

[dobervol]

I run my scopes around 12x for most everything I'm doing. Whether it's PRS or target shooting. I would think I'd hunt the same. Eye box is nice and forgiving and reticle is there and usable in my FFP. Mine goes to 29x but I'm never there FOV waayyy too narrow. Hope you find something that suits you. If you don't need the drop reticle the Minox zp5 with the MR5 reticle is really nice. The reticle is super easy to pick up on even for "struggling eyes"

Thanks for that suggestion. Until searching, I didn't even know about the MR5 reticle; I really like it. I had only seen the MR4, which is close to a Horus or Tremor type reticle, and wouldn't work for me, probably because I always just ask the search engines to find me what's in stock, and the MR5 seems to be out of stock everywhere. But it's very similar to what I'm looking for, and in the price range. I guess I'm trying to find a Goldilocks, not too simple and not too complex.

I like the Steiner SCR, and maybe the NF ATACR Mil-R, but now you've given me another choice with the Minox.

 

[Rob01]

I think I'm probably good with being able to see the reticle at 8x. I'm embarrassed to admit I never bothered to look through my friend's S-B at low-mid power, just high and low.

I know everything is a compromise at this point. So I probably will wind up with an FFP on this scope, since I'll have the advantage of full use from 15 power on up, and then an expensive hunting rifle in a year or so with a 2FP in a lower powered variable. And my wife will kill me. Still, I find as I get older that I have less and less interest in keeping a ton of guns for the sake of having a well-rounded collection, as I do having fewer, but more-expensive guns/optics which are exactly what I want and will actually use. So maybe if I sell off enough guns/scopes to offset a second gun/scope combo for next year, I'll survive.

I feel the same way. I have have a smaller number of very good rifles, shotguns and pistols. No need for a ton of ok rifles LOL

Another option is you get a lower powered optic to swap out when you need to hunt with the rifle. Doesn't have to be a $2000+ optic but something SFP and reliable. An easy swap.

 

[hk dave]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys as I've never anything but perfect vision but I'm starting to see signs of that going away... but isn't the reticle sharpness based purely on the diopter setting? Isn't the diopter basically able to bring it into focus no matter your vision?

All my scopes used to have the diopter set to factory zero, but now they're turned wayyyyy in to get a sharp reticle.

I guess what im asking is, can a person reach a point beyond the diopter adjustments?

 

[lash]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys as I've never anything but perfect vision but I'm starting to see signs of that going away... but isn't the reticle sharpness based purely on the diopter setting? Isn't the diopter basically able to bring it into focus no matter your vision?

All my scopes used to have the diopter set to factory zero, but now they're turned wayyyyy in to get a sharp reticle.

I guess what im asking is, can a person reach a point beyond the diopter adjustments?

The short answer is yes. There is limited diopter adjustment in your scope. Just like there are limited options in the drug store cheater lenses. There is an appropriate time to get prescription lenses or other correction for your vision.

Plus, a diopter adjustment alone cannot correct for most astigmatisms. Time to see your friendly neighborhood ophthalmologist.

 

[steve123]

The simple answer is using a SFP scope for hunting season since you are shooting so close, you probably have one hanging in the safe anyway right? Don't need but to aim and fire from 50y to 200Y. It doesn't take hardly any time to zero and just a little hassle rezeroing when the scope is switched out later.

Which opens up any fancy FFP scope you want for the rest of your long range shooting to be used at higher magnification.

Or if you get a scope like Athlon's Cronus 4.5 -29x56 which has super bright illumination which your eye will pick up on low power.

 

[Rob01]

Or if you get a scope like Athlon's Cronus 4.5 -29x56 which has super bright illumination which your eye will pick up on low power.

Vortex Razor II scopes are the same way. I use the illumination in daylight at matches when shooting into darker areas or on darker targets.

 

[dobervol]

The simple answer is using a SFP scope for hunting season since you are shooting so close, you probably have one hanging in the safe anyway right? Don't need but to aim and fire from 50y to 200Y. It doesn't take hardly any time to zero and just a little hassle rezeroing when the scope is switched out later.

Which opens up any fancy FFP scope you want for the rest of your long range shooting to be used at higher magnification.

Or if you get a scope like Athlon's Cronus 4.5 -29x56 which has super bright illumination which your eye will pick up on low power.

Yeah, I can do that, too, and it's probably the smartest solution. And I probably have, depending on what I've bought and sold at any given time, at least 5 of such SFP scopes hanging in the safe.

I put M1913 rails on most rifles I'll ever use for hunting, and even have most of my hunting scopes in a LaRue or similar American Defense mount so I can swap out and re-zero at will. That said, I probably most often use the highest-quality-glass versions of the good ol' 1" tube, 3-9x mil-dot scope in MOA. Even though using them in a precise situation would require the PITA MOA/Mil. conversion math, after years and years, I just kind of instinctively, KY-windage know what a Mil-Dot set up to be accurate at 9x requires in terms of holds at 3x for all common game animals in my area, especially if I have a rangefinder with me.

And it's really hard to find a shot at 100 yards where I live; 200 is really rare. I mostly like to hunt feral hogs, but VA whitetails are so prevalent that most shots take place at 25 yards, and then on the re-telling, badarse local "bone collector" deer snipers suddenly got him at 150-250 yards. If I just kept a rifle at my kitchen sink in the mornings and at dusk, I could shoot 3-5 bucks a year in my backyard at 50 feet or less.

The only problem with your solution, other than the need to re-zero, which as you point out is no big deal when you think of it, is that my wife would in turn point out I now have no need to buy a $5-8k hunting rifle in 2018, whether I sell some stuff or not.

Oh, well; she loves Alaska, so maybe it's time for a moose trip, which would of course require a moose gun, since the MRAD would be far too heavy to chuck up a mountainside.

 

[steve123]

Vortex Razor II scopes are the same way. I use the illumination in daylight at matches when shooting into darker areas or on darker targets.

Yeah, it's a feature you wouldn't think is as handy as it can be. Anything the reticle washes out on, just turn illume on, and all doubt of where the reticle tried to hide is gone.

 

[Moose]

It is funny how after 50 years of shooting all kinds of weapons and owning a lot of them,that know i feel like i rather have a couple of customs rifles made just for me and the best glass that is made.And to get that i had to sell most of my gun collection.But it is so much more rewarding shooting rifles like these.The only thing that sucks about custom rifles is the wait to get them built.

 

[dobervol]

Yeah, it's a feature you wouldn't think is as handy as it can be. Anything the reticle washes out on, just turn illume on, and all doubt of where the reticle tried to hide is gone.

I used to think illum on a reticle which would only be used in daytime was nothing but a tacticool, dumb waste of money, but no longer. And because the reticles on cheap scopes bleed red when you crank up the power to get visibility in sunlight, it's just one more legitimate justification for expensive glass.

 

[steve123]

Yeah, I can do that, too, and it's probably the smartest solution. And I probably have, depending on what I've bought and sold at any given time, at least 5 of such SFP scopes hanging in the safe.

I put M1913 rails on most rifles I'll ever use for hunting, and even have most of my hunting scopes in a LaRue or similar American Defense mount so I can swap out and re-zero at will. That said, I probably most often use the highest-quality-glass versions of the good ol' 1" tube, 3-9x mil-dot scope in MOA. Even though using them in a precise situation would require the PITA MOA/Mil. conversion math, after years and years, I just kind of instinctively, KY-windage know what a Mil-Dot set up to be accurate at 9x requires in terms of holds at 3x for all common game animals in my area, especially if I have a rangefinder with me.

And it's really hard to find a shot at 100 yards where I live; 200 is really rare. I mostly like to hunt feral hogs, but VA whitetails are so prevalent that most shots take place at 25 yards, and then on the re-telling, badarse local "bone collector" deer snipers suddenly got him at 150-250 yards. If I just kept a rifle at my kitchen sink in the mornings and at dusk, I could shoot 3-5 bucks a year in my backyard at 50 feet or less.

The only problem with your solution, other than the need to re-zero, which as you point out is no big deal when you think of it, is that my wife would in turn point out I now have no need to buy a $5-8k hunting rifle in 2018, whether I sell some stuff or not.

Oh, well; she loves Alaska, so maybe it's time for a moose trip, which would of course require a moose gun, since the MRAD would be far too heavy to chuck up a mountainside.

What you do is snipe that moose from way far away with the Mrad! That's where the nice FFP scope comes into it's own too. If the wind is down a 700Y shot should be cake if you are practiced up and have your dope down good. Tell that expensive guide to get climbing and you'll see him back at camp, lol.

 

[dobervol]

It is funny how after 50 years of shooting all kinds of weapons and owning a lot of them,that know i feel like i rather have a couple of customs rifles made just for me and the best glass that is made.And to get that i had to sell most of my gun collection.But it is so much more rewarding shooting rifles like these.The only thing that sucks about custom rifles is the wait to get them built.

Thanks for the encouragement with that philosophy. I've started paring back from a ton of guns to just several of my favorite curio & relic guns (for example, though cheap, you will NOT get me to give up my $100 Russian Nagant revolver; that 20 MOA thing is more fun than a slip and slide is to a 10 year old); several expensive target shotguns ; several really nice bolt guns; several really nice ARs I built myself; several custom revolvers in various calibers; several custom 1911s; whatever I want to keep for home defense and CCW; and last but not least, whatever guns my wife has decided are hers now and told me, "If you want one, go buy another.".

The key word there is "several" in each category, instead of 10-20 lower priced guns in most every category. And I'm starting to do the same with the glass. If I've not used it in 5 years, and I have no immediate plans to use it, time to put it up on gunbroker. It's taking up too much space in the safes, not to mention all the space taken up by the empty gun and optic cases/boxes, and making my spreadsheet of what I own an annoyance to take care of.

 

[steve123]

It is funny how after 50 years of shooting all kinds of weapons and owning a lot of them,that know i feel like i rather have a couple of customs rifles made just for me and the best glass that is made.And to get that i had to sell most of my gun collection.But it is so much more rewarding shooting rifles like these.The only thing that sucks about custom rifles is the wait to get them built.

I did similar, with olympic match PCP air rifles and pistols, 22's, centerfire pistols, then long range rifles. Around 30 years ago I used to collect pistols until I sold some to get into a custom STI 2011, my first custom anything, which started this whole mess, I was never the same. Once in awhile I'll shoot other people's pistols just to see what I'm not missing,lol. The sad thing is I can't afford the other cool custom guns I envision!

 

[Mute]

Like you, I have old eyes. I wear my RX and adjust the ocular with my eyewear on. After that, I usually don't have any problems regardless of what magnification I'm using.

 

[diverdon]

I think I'm probably good with being able to see the reticle at 8x. I'm embarrassed to admit I never bothered to look through my friend's S-B at low-mid power, just high and low.

I know everything is a compromise at this point. So I probably will wind up with an FFP on this scope, since I'll have the advantage of full use from 15 power on up, and then an expensive hunting rifle in a year or so with a 2FP in a lower powered variable. And my wife will kill me. Still, I find as I get older that I have less and less interest in keeping a ton of guns for the sake of having a well-rounded collection, as I do having fewer, but more-expensive guns/optics which are exactly what I want and will actually use. So maybe if I sell off enough guns/scopes to offset a second gun/scope combo for next year, I'll survive.

The thing with forming a judgment based on a few uses of a friends FFP scope is that it is not likely that you would have spent enough time to properly adjust the diopter and parallax. If the diopter is not correctly adjusted with to your eye you will have problems seeing the reticle clearly, these will get worse at low power!

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...up-a-ffp-rifle-scope-a-simple-psa-on-diopters

If you follow the proceedure in the thread linked above most likely the reticle of a 5-25 FFP scope will be sharp and visible to your eye at 5X.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Without corrective lenses he is almost legally blind, which means he is damn near disabled. The rear eyepiece focus is not designed for that situation. Nevertheless, he stated he spends most of the time on high power and wants to see the reticle. I think that pretty much leaves one choice. FFP with illumination for low power. That has been already suggested.

 

[dobervol]

Without corrective lenses he is almost legally blind, which means he is damn near disabled. The rear eyepiece focus is not designed for that situation. Nevertheless, he stated he spends most of the time on high power and wants to see the reticle. I think that pretty much leaves one choice. FFP with illumination for low power. That has been already suggested.

Most scope diopters DO work for me without my lenses, but I'm right on the cusp of the adjustment range, so as a matter of practice, I just look through my eyeglasses. Also, it's really annoying to keep moving them up or take them off to look through a scope and immediately put them back down again or on again the second I look up from the rifle to be able to see anything at all. And eyeglasses aren't nearly as much a bother when looking through a scope as they are binos, at least to me.

But as diverdon suggested, I may very well have not adjusted the diopter and parallax when I looked through a friend's S-B, since I may not have wanted to mess up his setup. I don't recall specifically, but it's likely.

 

[dobervol]

One more thing on the legally blind aspect. It occurs to me that folks like me must be thankful that even with our eye weakness, through modern eyeglass and scope optics, we, too, can shoot under 0.5 MOA with a good rifle and scope, training and practice. It really is amazing.

 

[dobervol]

Welp, since I'm annoyed at people who post with questions and then don't follow-up to tell folks what they ultimately did/decided, I felt I owed you helpful folks an update. I've made my choice, and it wound up being something I initially didn't think would work. I got a Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27 x 56 EBR-2C on a Spuhr mount. I got to noticing that the EBR-2C reticle looked like it offered a bit of the best of both worlds, in the sense of offering a Xmas tree, but a relatively uncluttered one, which I thought I could maybe make out on lower power if illuminated, at least well enough to hit what I'd be aiming at using low power, anyway. Knowing I could return it for something else unmounted, if I unboxed it and didn't like it, I got it from one of the board sponsors, Sport Optics, and they were awesome to deal with.

Not had it to the range yet, but played with the scope by itself enough to know the configuration's gonna work for me. And a hearty THANKS to all you guys for helping me direct my thoughts!