Rifle Scopes Burris XTR II anyone?

[water_au]

Ohhhh i didnt know cheers for the heads up guys before i spoke the magic words of ill take it! And i thought we were allies too ? oh well. ☺

In prs comp would not having a scope capable of 20x or more magnification be a hinderance there is the 4 to 16x atacr in f1 that isnt budget bustimg but still a grand and change over an xtr II.

Also huge thanks again to all of you for putting up with this and educating me ?

 

[beetroot]

No. Sorry ITAR.

http://www.williamsmullen.com/news/itar-guide-firearms-industry

ITAR restrictions have to be the most misunderstood, confusion, bullshit legislation on this planet.
Pretty much every manufacturer and retailer interprets it differently, with most folk too scared of it to take the risk.

Ive researched it a lot and as far as I can tell something is only ITAR restricted if it's supplied to the military.
Ive personally had Leupold, Burris and Vortex scopes shipped to me in New Zealand, none of the models being ones supplied to the Military.
On the other hand I wasn't able to import a Blueforce Gear 2 point sling as it is supplied to the military, but Magpul is fine despite them both being made of nylon webbing and plastic fittings.

Basically if you want to know if something is ITAR restricted, ask the manufacturer.
A lot of items can't be exported not due to ITAR, but due to the manufacturer not allowing certain retailers to export their products, Leupold are notorious for not allowing export.

 

[beetroot]

Ohhhh i didnt know cheers for the heads up guys before i spoke the magic words of ill take it! And i thought we were allies too ? oh well. ☺

In prs comp would not having a scope capable of 20x or more magnification be a hinderance there is the 4 to 16x atacr in f1 that isnt budget bustimg but still a grand and change over an xtr II.

Also huge thanks again to all of you for putting up with this and educating me ?

What is your budget?
You will find 99% of scopes will be able to be exported to Australia, it might just be a case of finding a Us retailer that will send to you. Pretty sure you only have to pay import tax of it's worth more than 1000AUD. Much better than NZ with its 400Nzd limit.

 

[water_au]

well budget is low so burris xtr at around 2k and some change seemed attractive i mean a brand new local sourced NF ATACR 4-16 ffp yadda yadda is almost 1500 more so its a bit of a struggle, and seeing some of the scopes for sale in the optics section here and at the top of my list of wants was SB PMII and NF 5-25 ATACR which while both supplies to the military are also supplies to the public so? i dont know but people on private sale seem to not want to take the risk and ship outside the states

 

[beetroot]

well budget is low so burris xtr at around 2k and some change seemed attractive i mean a brand new local sourced NF ATACR 4-16 ffp yadda yadda is almost 1500 more so its a bit of a struggle, and seeing some of the scopes for sale in the optics section here and at the top of my list of wants was SB PMII and NF 5-25 ATACR which while both supplies to the military are also supplies to the public so? i dont know but people on private sale seem to not want to take the risk and ship outside the states

You could easily import a new Burris XTRII or Vortex PST Gen 2 for less than 2000AUD. I'll PM you tomorrow with retailers that should ship to Ozzie.

Failing that I can sell you a used Vortex HST 4-16x44 for 750AUD and ship it across the ditch lol.

 

[308pirate]

In prs comp would not having a scope capable of 20x or more magnification be a hinderance

I would say that no, it's not a hindrance, judging by the comments of experienced competitors here and what I've seen and heard in matches. Once you go much past 15X, mirage and less than stellar resolution start to kill image quality rendering the extra magnification mostly useless. Not to mention field of view gets very small very quickly past that point too.

Very high end scopes can maintain high resolution at high magnification but they can't do much about mirage altering what you see through them.

 

[patriot07]

Burris is made in the Philippines to start. Next what price point? SWFA is 1500 Cronus BTR 1700.

Where are you getting enough samples of these chinese scopes to make what you say reliable? Your day job has no relevance to the conversation, unless its for one of these chinese scope companies.

Another user had mentioned the Midas Tac, which I had included as a quote before my original reply. That portion of my reply wasn't originally directed at you.

I only brought up my background to emphasize that I have a very sound understanding of how controlling production processes will typically lead to better quality products. And I think that's one of the big distinctions you seem to see between Japan and China manufacturing, in general.

As to your prices, I don't buy scopes new for the most part, and the SWFA is readily available at $850-ish used. It's hard to discuss "best value" and "new only, not used" in the same sentence.

I never mentioned the Cronus BTR, only the original Cronus, which runs around $900-$950 used. These are all within $250 of each other, which is peanuts in the grand scheme of the overall rig considering the significant difference in the quality of the overall product between the XTR2 and Cronus/SWFA/LRHS/etc.. But like I said, if $250 is that important, you're better off buying the SWFA 3-15, which can be had for $400-$450 used.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I like the build quality on the XTR2 and the reticle is fantastic. The turrets are just fine as well. But it's always kind of seemed to me like a too-expensive version of the SWFA 3-15. Good quality, mediocre (at best) glass. But everyone's eyes are different and if some folks love it, then so be it. It does seem to be a decreasingly noticeable drawback as you move from the 5-25 to 4-20 to 3-15. But at that point, I just go back to the question of why you aren't just buying the SWFA 3-15...but to each their own. I'm not trying to say anyone is making a mistake by buying it - just trying to offer an open-ended perspective about some other optics.

 

[supercorndogs]

I never mentioned the Cronus BTR, only the original Cronus, which runs around $900-$950 used. These are all within $250 of each other, which is peanuts in the grand scheme of the overall rig considering the significant difference in the quality of the overall product between the XTR2 and Cronus/SWFA/LRHS/etc.. But like I said, if $250 is that important, you're better off buying the SWFA 3-15, which can be had for $400-$450 used.

The original Cronus has more than a 4% tracking error. Thats correct, it gains about .2 for every 5 mils dialed. Just like the TX5i you were talking shit about the other day for its tracking error, that they fixed, and retrofitted old scopes. Call Athlon and see if they are fixing the Orginal Cronus's for their tracking error. Spoiler alert, they will explain how to adjust your ballistic calculator for it.

Your prices are favoring the low side. I have sold multiples of everything you listed, and if you shot me one of those prices for any of them you wouldn't get it. Readily available means, you can go get one right now. Not that they pop up from time to time. Not many are selling SWFA FFP 3-15s for 400 or 450. Not many SWFA HD's popping up anymore, but the glass in them isn't much better than the newer Burris XTRII 5-25s I have seen anyway. I bet you cant find me a Cronus for 900 or 950 either. I will sell you one for 1k though.

 

[patriot07]

The original Cronus has more than a 4% tracking error. Thats correct, it gains about .2 for every 5 mils dialed. Just like the TX5i you were talking shit about the other day for its tracking error, that they fixed, and retrofitted old scopes. Call Athlon and see if they are fixing the Orginal Cronus's for their tracking error. Spoiler alert, they will explain how to adjust your ballistic calculator for it.

Your prices are favoring the low side. I have sold multiples of everything you listed, and if you shot me one of those prices for any of them you wouldn't get it. Readily available means, you can go get one right now. Not that they pop up from time to time. Not many are selling SWFA FFP 3-15s for 400 or 450. Not many SWFA HD's popping up anymore, but the glass in them isn't much better than the newer Burris XTRII 5-25s I have seen anyway. I bet you cant find me a Cronus for 900 or 950 either. I will sell you one for 1k though.

I had one Cronus, and it was spot on DOPE-wise with my SWFA out to 1,100 yards on my 6.5 CM. I sold the Cronus because I just liked the compact SWFA package a little better on my mid-weight rifle. But both were really great scopes. I paid $950 for my Cronus and sold it for $975 IIRC. Maybe i should have said $950-$1000, but that doesn't push it into another price point or anything...although you're right that I probably favored the low side.
I don't think I have ever said anything about T5xi tracking? Maybe I'm mis-remembering? Definitely have some negative comments about the glass at its price point, much like the XTR2. But once again, neither is unuseable - I just don't see either as a great value at their respective price points because of the significant differences between their glass and the competition's glass. The T5xi has very good resolution, but the CA is horrendous and really becomes an overall clarity and ease of use issue with me. I'd buy an XTR2 before I bought a T5xi.

Regardless, one more question: when I hear you guys say the "new" 5-25 XTR2, what time frame is that? The only two I've looked through were both fresh on the shelves roughly 9-12 months ago. The 4-20 I looked at was even older, but it had decent glass compared to the 5-25.

 

[steve123]

LOLOL Bull shit they do. They used to and probably still do track better than anything else in the 300 dollar price range. But 100%, no. Better than the XTRII fuck no. 1% error in a sub 1000 dollar scope is not common.

Agreed, and also let's all ponder, that for the normal distances most shooters go out to, which is 600-800Y - if that, even the inexpensive chinese scopes track within a click at those distances, and that can be easily compensated for in a ballistic program. On top of that there's all the other variables, like wind, or shooter error, causing a miss. I'd say half of the shooters on this sight don't have their dope down to a click. That 1% is usually lost in the noise of the imperfection of reality.

Well, there's also the fact that any brand can fail regardless of price, or not be 100% correct in certain ways, etc, we even see Tangent Theta's fail/$4500.

Heck my three SWFA 3-15's don't/didn't focus past 700Y with my diopter setting, have blah glass, a basic reticle, 5 mil knobs and no ZS. The one I sold to my friend had it's parallax knob come off in his hand.

My point is, people shouldn't worship at the alter of any brand thinking it doesn't have faults or won't let you down in the future, right??!!

 

[supercorndogs]

I had one Cronus, and it was spot on DOPE-wise with my SWFA out to 1,100 yards on my 6.5 CM. I sold the Cronus because I just liked the compact SWFA package a little better on my mid-weight rifle. But both were really great scopes. I paid $950 for my Cronus and sold it for $975 IIRC. Maybe i should have said $950-$1000, but that doesn't push it into another price point or anything...although you're right that I probably favored the low side.
I don't think I have ever said anything about T5xi tracking? Maybe I'm mis-remembering? Definitely have some negative comments about the glass at its price point, much like the XTR2. But once again, neither is unuseable - I just don't see either as a great value at their respective price points because of the significant differences between their glass and the competition's glass. The T5xi has very good resolution, but the CA is horrendous and really becomes an overall clarity and ease of use issue with me. I'd buy an XTR2 before I bought a T5xi.

Regardless, one more question: when I hear you guys say the "new" 5-25 XTR2, what time frame is that? The only two I've looked through were both fresh on the shelves roughly 9-12 months ago. The 4-20 I looked at was even older, but it had decent glass compared to the 5-25.

Then your SWFA is off also, or your DOPE isn't that good. Probably the second one because I doubt your SWFA is that far off. This is not speculation, this is due to the erector not being designed correctly, and is one of the problems they fixed when they came out the the Cronus BTR.

It was another thread where you were off on your anti Burris anti-Steiner rant, you complained about the tracking or the "design flaws". Now you are off on some bull shit CA witch hunt. You tell me your a mechanical engine queer, then tell me you asses a scope by looking through a couple.

Is everyone on this sight a mechanical engineer? I swear I read that ten time a day.

 

[water_au]

You could easily import a new Burris XTRII or Vortex PST Gen 2 for less than 2000AUD. I'll PM you tomorrow with retailers that should ship to Ozzie.

Failing that I can sell you a used Vortex HST 4-16x44 for 750AUD and ship it across the ditch lol.

could be a plan would appreciate the info, where do you hunt for used scopes in AUS and NZ i have looked without to much success and the F class guys at my club well one of them competes alot and is using a sightron i beleive? theres just so many options its easy to get lost and without knowing where to look for the used deals it becomes a huge challenge!

 

[water_au]

I had one Cronus, and it was spot on DOPE-wise with my SWFA out to 1,100 yards on my 6.5 CM. I sold the Cronus because I just liked the compact SWFA package a little better on my mid-weight rifle. But both were really great scopes. I paid $950 for my Cronus and sold it for $975 IIRC. Maybe i should have said $950-$1000, but that doesn't push it into another price point or anything...although you're right that I probably favored the low side.
I don't think I have ever said anything about T5xi tracking? Maybe I'm mis-remembering? Definitely have some negative comments about the glass at its price point, much like the XTR2. But once again, neither is unuseable - I just don't see either as a great value at their respective price points because of the significant differences between their glass and the competition's glass. The T5xi has very good resolution, but the CA is horrendous and really becomes an overall clarity and ease of use issue with me. I'd buy an XTR2 before I bought a T5xi.

Regardless, one more question: when I hear you guys say the "new" 5-25 XTR2, what time frame is that? The only two I've looked through were both fresh on the shelves roughly 9-12 months ago. The 4-20 I looked at was even older, but it had decent glass compared to the 5-25.

locally i havnt seen any SWFA suppliers or sellers or used items so it didnt even register on my radar im affraid if i can find a supplier of this brand i will give it a solid look!

 

[beetroot]

locally i havnt seen any SWFA suppliers or sellers or used items so it didnt even register on my radar im affraid if i can find a supplier of this brand i will give it a solid look!

SWFA can export their SWFA branded scopes now, if you email them they will be able to tell you the process to order one.
I'll PM you a list of vendors that I have found who will ship internationally.

 

[Birddog6424]

Bottom line is Burris glass is plenty good for anything you will need to hit a target or game animal.

I have 5 years of hard use on multiple variants of the XTR II. I've never had a target I couldn't see well enough to hit in a PRS match, even though I've seen targets that everyone was having issues with. And I've never been in a scenario where I couldn't resolve a game animal. I've bagged several decent ones with mine.

The glass on the XTR II is solid for its price point. You aren't going to noticeably improve on it for less than $1200. Its such a moot point to haggle over a slight difference that wont equate to real world shooting improvement.

This scope sells like hotcakes since the day they released it. And people really like it. You just cant argue with results.

 

[D_TROS]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/scope-snob-in-remission.6877345/page-2#post-7309051

The direction I went.

I would recommend the following scopes (I have owned them all. I sold all of them but the XTR2's.)

Vortex Gen1
Burris XTR2
Bushnell XRS
Steiner T5Xi
SWFA

THey all are very comparable in features and glass...the Gen2 and T5Xi if you get used for around $1200 (USD) is smoking good scope. They all track great. Its obviously well documented the newer glass is better in the XTR2's. Also, I put tracking at a premium, and ad naseum, the Burris Xtr2 and the Bushnell DMR are the only 2 scopes that were "boringly accurate" by KSE tests.


GL
DT

 

[water_au]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/scope-snob-in-remission.6877345/page-2#post-7309051

The direction I went.

I would recommend the following scopes (I have owned them all. I sold all of them but the XTR2's.)

Vortex Gen1
Burris XTR2
Bushnell XRS
Steiner T5Xi
SWFA

THey all are very comparable in features and glass...the Gen2 and T5Xi if you get used for around $1200 (USD) is smoking good scope. They all track great. Its obviously well documented the newer glass is better in the XTR2's. Also, I put tracking at a premium, and ad naseum, the Burris Xtr2 and the Bushnell DMR are the only 2 scopes that were "boringly accurate" by KSE tests.


GL
DT

Did you test all the scopes for tracking. Looking atbthe swfa website i like the simplicity and reticles that th ey show alot good to know that the burris and bushnell are on point tracking that would be somthing im most keen on and why originally when i had a budget or a high budget inshould say somthing like steiner. Schmidts. And hensoldt were top of my list .

 

[supercorndogs]

I like the SWFA reticles also, they are simple. I don't know if you can find the Big Weaver in Upside down land but there were some really good deals here in the states recently. It uses Weavers EDMR reticle which is a very nice simple reticle, but with a finer stadia and open center gives a very fine aiming point. Weaver 6-30x56.

 

[Birddog6424]

I'm also a fan of SWFA scopes. I think they keep it simple and deliver a good product. And I have several Bushnells in the safe and have never been anything but pleased with with them.

As Steve pointed out above, this is a great time to be a scope buyer.

 

[water_au]

True and luckily i have time.on my side to research buying atleast certain things from the states seems to be out. Others in but for whats been said burris is still up there on the list swfa i do like their reticles alotttt the scr burris reticle is ok but just... dunno... nf reticles are the shit though and swfa reticles are basic but friendly. Choices choices....i mean theres a used leupold mark 6 going for 2600 local money and probably the best ive seen for sale locally in the used market. Much more variety with new brands now making it to Australia ?

 

[Bender]

I have the big weaver. 5-30x56. It’s a tank at 39oz With a 34mm tube. But it has a brick wall of a zero stop and really nice glass. Lots of travel. They were a bit spendy when new but if you luck into one they are great scope.

 

[patriot07]

Then your SWFA is off also, or your DOPE isn't that good. Probably the second one because I doubt your SWFA is that far off. This is not speculation, this is due to the erector not being designed correctly, and is one of the problems they fixed when they came out the the Cronus BTR.

It was another thread where you were off on your anti Burris anti-Steiner rant, you complained about the tracking or the "design flaws". Now you are off on some bull shit CA witch hunt. You tell me your a mechanical engine queer, then tell me you asses a scope by looking through a couple.

Is everyone on this sight a mechanical engineer? I swear I read that ten time a day.

Goodness, this is the problem with the internet. I have little doubt that this conversation would have gone a bit differently in person.

Since you seem to be unable to have a discussion without putting words in my mouth or name-calling, I'll leave it alone. I've made my opinion clear. I think the XTR2 glass is very subpar for its price range, and I think the same about the T5xi. Neither of those opinions are horribly uncommon amongst people that aren't Burris fanboys or have tried a handful of different scopes. I'm not familiar with international shipping, but if you can't get an SWFA, then I'd consider the Cronus or LRHS or PST2 in the same price range as the XTR2.

 

[supercorndogs]

Goodness, this is the problem with the internet. I have little doubt that this conversation would have gone a bit differently in person.

Since you seem to be unable to have a discussion without putting words in my mouth or name-calling, I'll leave it alone. I've made my opinion clear. I think the XTR2 glass is very subpar for its price range, and I think the same about the T5xi. Neither of those opinions are horribly uncommon amongst people that aren't Burris fanboys or have tried a handful of different scopes. I'm not familiar with international shipping, but if you can't get an SWFA, then I'd consider the Cronus or LRHS or PST2 in the same price range as the XTR2.

The problem I see here is you don't know, what you don't know, and refuse to entertain any knowledge lobbed your way.

Leaving it alone means shutting up about it, not trying to have the last word. Making false accusations of name calling and mistreatment. Implying I should be scared of you in person. All that stupid shit you said came from you, not me. Play the victim for us. I have my violin out to play sad music for you.

I have owned it and ran it, if I have an opinion on it. Here are a list of tactical scopes I have an opinion on.

Steiner M 4-16
Steiner Tx5i 3-15
Gen1 Razor
Burris XTRII 2 8 mil original versions, 2 new production 5-25
Burris XTR
LRHS
LRTS
DMR mil dot and G2
HDMR Tremor2
ERS G2 and Tremor2
XRS H59 and H37
DMRII
Tango 6
Cronus
SWFA fixed 10x 12x
SWFA 3-15
SWFA 5-20
Weaver 2-10x36
Weaver 3-15x50
Weaver 5-30x56
Nikon FX-1000
Athlon Ares BTR
Athlon Midas BTR
Athlon Talos 4-144
Nightforce 2-10x32
Millet TRS-1

I am sure I forgot a couple, and most of them I had at least two. Some of them I had more than 10 samples. All of them showed variation in glass from one to the next. I could tell you all of them were repeatable, or were made that way by warranty repair if not, But i couldn't tell they all tracked 100%. Most were with in .1 to .2 at ten mils which is a very usable error.

 

[Kickin45]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but if your having trouble importing US scopes, go with a UK brand. The Delta Stryker is 3-times the scope that the Burris is hands down. Not even a comparison.
Also the Toric Tract is a great scope as well

 

[patriot07]

The problem I see here is you don't know, what you don't know, and refuse to entertain any knowledge lobbed your way.

Leaving it alone means shutting up about it, not trying to have the last word. Making false accusations of name calling and mistreatment. Implying I should be scared of you in person. All that stupid shit you said came from you, not me. Play the victim for us. I have my violin out to play sad music for you.

I have owned it and ran it, if I have an opinion on it. Here are a list of tactical scopes I have an opinion on.

Steiner M 4-16
Steiner Tx5i 3-15
Gen1 Razor
Burris XTRII 2 8 mil original versions, 2 new production 5-25
Burris XTR
LRHS
LRTS
DMR mil dot and G2
HDMR Tremor2
ERS G2 and Tremor2
XRS H59 and H37
DMRII
Tango 6
Cronus
SWFA fixed 10x 12x
SWFA 3-15
SWFA 5-20
Weaver 2-10x36
Weaver 3-15x50
Weaver 5-30x56
Nikon FX-1000
Athlon Ares BTR
Athlon Midas BTR
Athlon Talos 4-144
Nightforce 2-10x32
Millet TRS-1

I am sure I forgot a couple, and most of them I had at least two. Some of them I had more than 10 samples. All of them showed variation in glass from one to the next. I could tell you all of them were repeatable, or were made that way by warranty repair if not, But i couldn't tell they all tracked 100%. Most were with in .1 to .2 at ten mils which is a very usable error.

Implying you should be scared of me? I'm just saying that people are usually friendlier in person and when you started the name-calling, I believed that was unnecessary and that it was a product of having internet discussions rather than real-world discussions. I'm a freaking engineer...you think I go around trying to physically scare people? I'm not sure what you have going on mentally right now, but this post is evident of some type of issue...

Honestly, nobody cares what scopes you have used. I've used a decent number as well. I'm happy that you have an opinion. Mine is just different. You seem to be the one who is unable to handle that...

 

[Bender]

Just hug and make up.... opinions are just that.

Let’s all shoot the same direction.

 

[spife7980]

Just hug and make up.... opinions are just that.

Let’s all shoot the same direction.

Never, this argument on whether the SWFA (tasco) or the Burris (well... burris) is best must go on.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am not arguing anything is the best. I called bullshit on a user who made claims about QC at Chinese scope factories, having knowledge of their sample to sample variation. Then got off in the weeds talking about his intimate knowledge of the burris from looking through three of them. Oh yea then off on TX5i CA LOL. And their drastically sub par glass at the price point. LMFAO. I might honestly believe he looked through a burris at the roll out, because they were about like a Tasco World Class from 1980. But nothing at 1500 blows the Steiner glass away. nothing blows the Burris glass away sub 1k They are all pretty close at their respective price. A good sample of one and bad sample of another can easily formulate and uneducated opinion.