Bushing or mandrel or both?

[Islas82]

I been loading 6.5CM for some years now I have always full length size then ran a mandrel to get desired neck tension. Soon I will start loading for a 7 PRC and am curious but mostly ignorant, is a bushing die meant to replace mandrel use? Or do you guys run both for some reason?

Thinking about going bushing this time around to try something new and just wondering if it’s necessary for me to invest in 7 PRC mandrel as well.

Thanks and don’t be so hard on a noob.

 

[6.5SH]

Many use both bushing dies and a mandrel to fine tune the level of interference fit. If you already have a mandrel die the additional cost of another mandrel is trivial.

 

[4O6shootist]

If you have quality brass with low neck thickness variation, just use a bushing that gives the desired sized neck diameter. Over sizing and using a mandrel to set the neck is working the brass twice. SAC makes a die that sizes the neck and mandrels in the same step. Which would save a ton of time VS a seperate mandrel die. I just don't like the idea of mandreling on the down stroke of the press.

 

[Chris1972]

I have the SAC die with the mandrel. The bushing is only slight smaller than the mandrel with Lapua brass. I personally don’t have an issue with the mandrel on the upstroke and have yet to see a good argument as to why this bad, although one may be forthcoming. Every expander ball ever used, which we’ve all done, sizes the neck on the upstroke.

 

[Islas82]

If you have quality brass with low neck thickness variation, just use a bushing that gives the desired sized neck diameter. Over sizing and using a mandrel to set the neck is working the brass twice. SAC makes a die that sizes the neck and mandrels in the same step. Which would save a ton of time VS a seperate mandrel die. I just don't like the idea of mandreling on the down stroke of the press.

This makes sense, thanks

 

[Zack_va248]

I run a bushing that is .001" under mandrel size for FL sizing so, yes it's working the brass twice, but it's extremely minor. Works great and has netted excellent results. Especially since I anneal every firing. I think the SAC die is the hot ticket combining into one step, albeit for a hefty price that isn't worth it to me since the volume I shoot just isn't enough to support the cost. YMMV depending on what your time is worth and volume of shooting you're doing.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Why did SAC make mandrell the same dimension in whole dimension?
This way you cant undersize neck with bushing and expand it with this mandrell in stoke ''up''.

 

[Chris1972]

I’m not 100% sure what you’re asking but their mandrel is tapered above so the mandrel will pass freely through the unsized neck, then the bushing will reduce it, then it will size it when the brass is pulled out of the bushing and onto the mandrel.

 

[misser]

If you have quality brass with low neck thickness variation, just use a bushing that gives the desired sized neck diameter. Over sizing and using a mandrel to set the neck is working the brass twice. SAC makes a die that sizes the neck and mandrels in the same step. Which would save a ton of time VS a seperate mandrel die. I just don't like the idea of mandreling on the down stroke of the press.

down stroke ?? pretty sure that's how the manufacturers of ammo do it. Over-annealing can get brass to soft which you may or may not like .i have put the crush to brass with mandrels

 

[Baron85]

I have used bushing only, bushing with mandrel or button, full length standard die with button and mandrel, and my current favorite is honed Forster full length die with a mandrel to set final tension.

I didn’t like not running a button or mandrel because I would have a handful of cases with dinged necks per batch that would need to be mandreled anyways, might as well just do all of them. And I reload in a progressive even for my precision ammo so it doesn’t take any more time. And I have not noticed any precision difference between any of the methods.

Last point is I think the overworking the brass argument is overrated. I loose brass because of primer pockets. I also anneal every few firings and run on the hotter side so maybe your use case will be different.

 

[4O6shootist]

down stroke ?? pretty sure that's how the manufacturers of ammo do it. Over-annealing can get brass to soft which you may or may not like .i have put the crush to brass with mandrels

Runout on factory loaded ammo isn't great, some are straight, some are really bad. The proper way to mandrel(in my opinion) is the up stroke, the case is bottomed out against the bottom face of shell holder, up into the die, everything is in line(if the press is straight). Mandrel on down stroke, the case is now riding on the extractor groove against the lips of the shell holder, relying on the trueness of shell holder as well as the brass cut. I don't mandrel any of my high volume match cases as it takes too damn long when you have 1k pcs of brass to process. But I do my magnum hunting rifles if the necks weren't turned. I see the merit of the SAC or mighty armory die with the mandrel being inside the sizing die, you get the mandrel consistency without the added time at the bench.

Everyone has an opinion, everyone usually finds a system that works for them to their desired needs. I know a handful of BR Shooters and I asked them if many mandrel, and the answer was no. They turn their necks for consistency, and the use a bushing to give their desired neck tension, some dont neck turn either. They chase a higher accuracy standard than most. If it works for them, I think it'll work for me. I have a full set of mandrels from 22 to 338, and some get used, but not very often.

 

[CK1.0]

I get better/lower and more consistent SD numbers by using a mandrel after sizing and tumbling off the lube.

None of the dies out there (including the SAC) do the same thing the mandrel does, and since it’s probably the easiest and least annoying reloading step I do, I think it’s worth the squeeze.

 

[Zack_va248]

I get better/lower and more consistent SD numbers by using a mandrel after sizing and tumbling off the lube.

None of the dies out there (including the SAC) do the same thing the mandrel does, and since it’s probably the easiest and least annoying reloading step I do, I think it’s worth the squeeze.

100% agree. Especially if minimizing vertical spread is the goal for shooting smaller targets passed 6-700yds is on the agenda.

 

[Herb Stoner]

I get better/lower and more consistent SD numbers by using a mandrel after sizing and tumbling off the lube.

None of the dies out there (including the SAC) do the same thing the mandrel does, and since it’s probably the easiest and least annoying reloading step I do, I think it’s worth the squeeze.

I’ve found the same and like the mandrel after sizing. I’m not afraid to move the brass a little more as I anneal on an AMP after most firings. I got better results (numbers and down range) when I brought the bushings down a couple thou smaller so I was definitely moving material with the mandrel rather than just touching it.

I have a couple of sets of SAC Modular dies that are awesome but haven’t looked at their mandrels closely to be honest. For the mandrel I use a Porters Precision die with gage pins after sizing and am very happy. I’m back to doing most case prep on my Dillon 750 so no additional steps or effort. Getting mostly the same results as sizing on my Zero so it’s working. Priming is with a CPS and seating on the Zero with various dies.

If you have a process and tools that work for you then, by all means, roll with it. It easy to overthink this stuff.

 

[straightshooter1]

My best results are with a honed FL sizing die without an expander ball that leaves the ID of the neck ~.002 smaller than were I want my ID for neck tension. Then I run a mandrel to get the ID for the neck tension. This always gives me .0005 or less TIR on the neck.

I've got a couple bushing dies and tried using them in the same way. After sizing and before running a mandrel through the neck, the TIR's were typically .003-.005". I tried all sorts of techniques to improve the results, they just could do when a non-bushing die can do. And I found that running the mandrel afterwards just doesn't improve the neck's TIR's. Oh, and I'm talking about necks that have been turned.

I suppose, in a lot of cases, .004" of TIR in the neck doesn't lead to a significant difference on paper. . . . especially for most shooters. It's just that when I prep brass, I like to make them as consistent as possible to remove or as least mitigate brass contributions to things like flyers. I can then look to other reasons, like poor mechanics or poor wind reads, etc. for poor performance on paper.

 

[CK1.0]

I’ve found the same and like the mandrel after sizing. I’m not afraid to move the brass a little more as I anneal on an AMP after most firings. I got better results (numbers and down range) when I brought the bushings down a couple thou smaller so I was definitely moving material with the mandrel rather than just touching it.

Same here... I anneal with an AMP every firing, and after some trial, arrived at purposely squashing the necks down a little more than at first so I could get more engagement with the mandrel.

I'm using a custom-honed FL die now, but previously I used a bushing die, and it was helpful for finding the right bushing-to-mandrel ratio. For 6mm I squash to .266" and then open it up with a .241" mandrel. I started with a more traditional bushing size of .269"/.268" and worked my way down to a .266" over thousands of rounds... mostly because I've/we've all heard too much of that "you're over-working the brass" stuff.

By accident, I discovered that using the mandrel after tumbling the lube off does seem to matter. It should've been obvious, in hindsight it makes sense to uniform all the necks as late in the game as possible, with no more being knocked around before the chamfer and seating bullets.

 

[misser]

Same here... I anneal with an AMP every firing, and after some trial, arrived at purposely squashing the necks down a little more than at first so I could get more engagement with the mandrel.

I'm using a custom-honed FL die now, but previously I used a bushing die, and it was helpful for finding the right bushing-to-mandrel ratio. For 6mm I squash to .266" and then open it up with a .241" mandrel. I started with a more traditional bushing size of .269"/.268" and worked my way down to a .266" over thousands of rounds... mostly because I've/we've all heard too much of that "you're over-working the brass" stuff.

By accident, I discovered that using the mandrel after tumbling the lube off does seem to matter. It should've been obvious, in hindsight it makes sense to uniform all the necks as late in the game as possible, with no more being knocked around before the chamfer and seating bullets.

which is all well and good. then there is that gun using factory loaded ammo that puts bullets into the same hole. that brass is far from perfect, was not chamfered, neck thickness varied and speeds are all over the place. bullets were just forced into the brass by machine and yet somehow each bullet went into one hole.

 

[MarkyMark007]

I’m not 100% sure what you’re asking but their mandrel is tapered above so the mandrel will pass freely through the unsized neck, then the bushing will reduce it, then it will size it when the brass is pulled out of the bushing and onto the mandrel.

thank you very much!
so SAC did think of this. very very good.
can you tell, how much you can undersize neck or how much are dimensions on those two places of the mandrell?

 

[MarkyMark007]

I get better/lower and more consistent SD numbers by using a mandrel after sizing and tumbling off the lube.

None of the dies out there (including the SAC) do the same thing the mandrel does, and since it’s probably the easiest and least annoying reloading step I do, I think it’s worth the squeeze.

all dies do the same thing as mandrell does, but they does it in the UP stroke with ball or with long mandrell - SAC die.

now we must see, if it is better to do this in DOWN stroke in another step, or it can be also done with SAC mandrell inside the die with UP stroke; what can be the biggest difference.

and why you have to get your lube off? do you lube inside cases ?

 

[MarkyMark007]

I can see you can undersize quite a lot with decaping-expander-mandrel insert, and you buy them in 0.0005' increment for target tension.

 

[Baron85]

another reason I like the mandrel is that I “FEEL” that holding the brass in the die for a few seconds vs just a fluid stroke of the press up and back down would allow the brass to “relax” into the new formed state and may reduce spring back and may increase consistency?????? I have never tested or measured but it makes me “FEEL” better.

So with the same idea, quickly pulling an expander ball or a mandrel like the SAC through the neck “MAY” not be as consistent as using a mandrel and letting the mandrel stay in the neck for a few seconds and possibly allowing the brass to “relax” into its new shape.

I could be totally crazy, and it is absolutely not scientific since I have done no measuring or testing. But since I load in a progressing it so easy to do and makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Curious what the Hide thinks about the brass being held in the die or on the mandrel vs a quick run through?

 

[Chris1972]

thank you very much!
so SAC did think of this. very very good.
can you tell, how much you can undersize neck or how much are dimensions on those two places of the mandrell?

I have to do some loading tonight and will measure if I remember. Without measuring I will say it’s a lot. Maybe +/- .020”.

With the .308 bushing, Lapua brass, and the .2815 bushing, I’m shooting for .0025” interference. With the mandrel only opening it back up .001-.002” I can easily feel the difference between annealed brass and brass that has not been.


With the SAC die, Zero press, and 419 shell holder I don’t worry about alignment or the brass seating on the rim instead of the face when doing it on the upstroke. I do have some presses and shell holder systems that would give me pause with SAC modular die.

 

[Chris1972]

I never heard of holding the brass in the die for a moment to let it relax in place until I saw it on here a while back. It for sure can’t hurt. For a slightly scientific but uneducated standpoint, there would have to be heat created during the expansion and you would have to hold it until it cools for this to be relevant. Is this happening? I have no idea.

 

[FredHammer]

Anneal, FL size without decapper rod, then bring to diameter with mandrel.

 

[CK1.0]

all dies do the same thing as mandrell does, but they does it in the UP stroke with ball or with long mandrell - SAC die.

now we must see, if it is better to do this in DOWN stroke in another step, or it can be also done with SAC mandrell inside the die with UP stroke; what can be the biggest difference.

and why you have to get your lube off? do you lube inside cases ?

UP versus DOWN is the whole enchilada, and IMO it maybe has more to do with not f'ing up the shoulder or stretching the case, more so than setting the neck ID.

All expander-balls (and pseudo-mandrels like with the SAC, which is still really just an improved expander-ball and NOT a mandrel) pull on the cases/shoulders... stretching things and distorting things slightly when opening up the unsupported necks on the UP stroke (brass is soft).

Using a traditional mandrel, we push DOWN through the necks while the necks are more rigidly supported by the shoulders (like how an arch works with a bridge or building). In theory, structurally, the cases/shoulders can hold their shape better that way, and being better supported, it seems to help with all the necks coming out the same.

I spray my cases with lanolin/IPA mix for lubrication before sizing, and am kind of OCD about getting all of the lube off after... so that means dry tumbling the cases to remove it. Since tumbling means taking freshly sized cases and having them crash into each other over and over, naturally the necks and case mouths get banged up and out of whack a bit (more than most know)... so at the very least, using the mandrel after helps fix up the damage that the tumbling causes.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Its just an option. We do everything we can to wring some more accuracy and ensure consistency of brass prep.

Upgrade to a 750 for reloading and you can run separate dies and save a little money. The SAC die is over $400 with bushing and mandrel. Thats half of a Dillion.

 

[CK1.0]

Exactly, there's no "right way" for everyone...

IMO guys should just try different stuff for themselves to see if they see a difference before shitting on it.

 

[rustyinbend]

Annealing on all firings, then use of a bushing to slightly shrink below desired diameter, then a mandrel to size up to the best pre-seating diameter ... works great for me. Results in excellent concentricity, and the perfect neck tension / seating force (measured on my AMP Press).

 

[FredHammer]

I spray my cases with lanolin/IPA mix for lubrication before sizing, and am kind of OCD about getting all of the lube off after... so that means dry tumbling the cases to remove it. Since tumbling means taking freshly sized cases and having them crash into each other over and over, naturally the necks and case mouths get banged up and out of whack a bit (more than most know)... so at the very least, using the mandrel after helps fix up the damage that the tumbling causes.

Do you dry lube (Moly/Graphite) mandrel then before seating the bullet?

 

[CK1.0]

Do you dry lube (Moly/Graphite) mandrel then before seating the bullet?

No, I just use a TiNi mandrel, and the only lube is whatever tiny amount of fine dust might be leftover from tumbling (I use fine 20-40 grit corn cob blasting media).

I just inside neck chamfer after, which removes any worry of peening/galling issues over multiple firings (and doesn't hurt in so far as not scratching bullets when seating and getting every drop of BC I paid for). It's another step (which sucks) but it goes quickly. I use a motorized VLD tool spinning fast, and just touch the cases with light pressure long enough to hear them whistle (less than "1 Mississippi"), drop it and snatch the next one.

 

[Islas82]

Anneal, FL size without decapper rod, then bring to diameter with mandrel.

This is exactly how I prep my cases now.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Do you dry lube (Moly/Graphite) mandrel then before seating the bullet?

I am now 90% convinced that lubing the necks has a noticeable impact on consistency. A couple weeks ago, I tested lubed necks vs. non-lubed necks with my 300 PRC at just under 500 yards. I had expected some SD improvement for lube, and got a little, but I did not expect a significant dispersion improvement at these distances.

I was wrong. Two weeks ago, I found the dispersion on non-lubed necks was significantly larger. However, it was at or under 15 shots per test group, so I wanted to retest. I ended up loading 25+ of each and went back out to the hills yesterday to shoot 15 of each at 450 yards for group size and 10+ at a mile. I got almost identical results.

For both tests

- Both showed a slight increase in SDs for non-lubed cases (1-2 fps). HOWEVER, I'm not ready to conclusively say that this isn't just due to margin of error stuff.

- The biggest impact was on group size - significantly better for lubed case necks across both sets of tests.

Below are the targets showing the results from two weeks ago (left image on each) and yesterday (right image on each). For those who are interested, a bottlecap is indeed 1 inch - drove to the target and forgot to bring a 1-inch anything, so found a bottlecap in my Jeep and used that.

Lubed cases:

Non-lubed cases:

You can see that in both tests the group size for lubed case necks is significantly better, especially when you consider that for lubed cases, the vast majority of the shots fall into about a half-moa group size on each and it was only 2 shots (two weeks ago) and 1 shot (yesterday) that caused the group size to double.

I'm working on a video to document this.

 

[FredHammer]

I am now 90% convinced that lubing the necks has a noticeable impact on consistency. A couple weeks ago, I tested lubed necks vs. non-lubed necks with my 300 PRC at just under 500 yards. I had expected some SD improvement for lube, and got a little, but I did not expect a significant dispersion improvement at these distances.

I was wrong. Two weeks ago, I found the dispersion on non-lubed necks was significantly larger. However, it was at or under 15 shots per test group, so I wanted to retest. I ended up loading 25+ of each and went back out to the hills yesterday to shoot 15 of each at 450 yards for group size and 10+ at a mile. I got almost identical results.

For both tests

- Both showed a slight increase in SDs for non-lubed cases (1-2 fps). HOWEVER, I'm not ready to conclusively say that this isn't just due to margin of error stuff.

- The biggest impact was on group size - significantly better for lubed case necks across both sets of tests.

Below are the targets showing the results from two weeks ago (left image on each) and yesterday (right image on each). For those who are interested, a bottlecap is indeed 1 inch - drove to the target and forgot to bring a 1-inch anything, so found a bottlecap in my Jeep and used that.

Lubed cases:
View attachment 8400852

Non-lubed cases:
View attachment 8400860

You can see that in both tests the group size for lubed case necks is significantly better, especially when you consider that for lubed cases, the vast majority of the shots fall into about a half-moa group size on each and it was only 2 shots (two weeks ago) and 1 shot (yesterday) that caused the group size to double.

I'm working on a video to document this.

Nice work! I tried using imperial sizing wax for neck lube and my groups went to hell! LOL. So, no need to test that one out.
The dry lubes look to show a bit of promise.

 

[Baron85]

When you did the lubed necks vs not lubed, was this in new brass or previously fired brass?

If previously fired do you leave carbon in the necks or does your cleaning method remove the carbon such as SS pin tumbling.

I know when I used to SS tumble I had to lube the necks.

 

[45-90]

I mandrel new brass and use a FL bushing sizing die. On fired brass, in my gun, just the FL bushing die.
Interesting on the lube or not lube...I'm in the sometimes I do sometimes I don't, depending on resistance I feel. But never tried to test it with accuracy...
As a lot of variables enter the picture with only a few shots at long range, could make a test conclusion go either way.

 

[Rocketmandb]

When you did the lubed necks vs not lubed, was this in new brass or previously fired brass?

If previously fired do you leave carbon in the necks or does your cleaning method remove the carbon such as SS pin tumbling.

I know when I used to SS tumble I had to lube the necks.

Great questions - I should have specified.

Any time I test, it's always with twice-fired+ brass. Load dev, at least once-fired.

As for previously fired and cleaning process, I use an ultrasonic with Boretech Case Clean. I've tested not cleaning and just lightly brushing the carbon in the necks and it does okay, but I also saw a lot more variability during the seating process. The graph below compares using Moly to brushing the necks - again, the terminal force is nice and tight, but not the road getting there. Does that have an effect? The rounds/group in this graph was too small a sample size to glean any useful data at the range, but I will likely do an in-depth test on this at some point.


Moly-lubed Necks (Blue) vs. Uncleaned/brushed Necks (Orange) EDIT: Caliber is 308

 

[misser]

never had much trouble getting 40 ,dry

 

[Marine52]

I am now 90% convinced that lubing the necks has a noticeable impact on consistency. A couple weeks ago, I tested lubed necks vs. non-lubed necks with my 300 PRC at just under 500 yards. I had expected some SD improvement for lube, and got a little, but I did not expect a significant dispersion improvement at these distances.

I was wrong. Two weeks ago, I found the dispersion on non-lubed necks was significantly larger. However, it was at or under 15 shots per test group, so I wanted to retest. I ended up loading 25+ of each and went back out to the hills yesterday to shoot 15 of each at 450 yards for group size and 10+ at a mile. I got almost identical results.

For both tests

- Both showed a slight increase in SDs for non-lubed cases (1-2 fps). HOWEVER, I'm not ready to conclusively say that this isn't just due to margin of error stuff.

- The biggest impact was on group size - significantly better for lubed case necks across both sets of tests.

Below are the targets showing the results from two weeks ago (left image on each) and yesterday (right image on each). For those who are interested, a bottlecap is indeed 1 inch - drove to the target and forgot to bring a 1-inch anything, so found a bottlecap in my Jeep and used that.

Lubed cases:
View attachment 8400852

Non-lubed cases:
View attachment 8400860

You can see that in both tests the group size for lubed case necks is significantly better, especially when you consider that for lubed cases, the vast majority of the shots fall into about a half-moa group size on each and it was only 2 shots (two weeks ago) and 1 shot (yesterday) that caused the group size to double.

I'm working on a video to document this.

Nice research. Thanks much. You may have already answered this but didn’t see it. Did you moly-lube the necks before mandreling or just before bullet seating ? Or both? Thanks.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Nice research. Thanks much. You may have already answered this but didn’t see it. Did you moly-lube the necks before mandreling or just before bullet seating ? Or both? Thanks.

On this go, both sets of tests were using Neo Lube #2 after using a nitrided mandrel - no lube before mandrel. In previous testing, when I've used moly, I would lube before mandrel/trim, then after again.

 

[Marine52]

On this go, both sets of tests were using Neo Lube #2 after using a nitrided mandrel - no lube before mandrel. In previous testing, when I've used moly, I would lube before mandrel/trim, then after again.

Thanks. I didn’t do an empirical test like you but my precision results are similar. I dip the necks in imperial graphite dry lube before mandreling and then apply neolube before bullet seating. Seems to work well

 

[Rocketmandb]

Thanks. I didn’t do an empirical test like you but my precision results are similar. I dip the necks in imperial graphite dry lube before mandreling and then apply neolube before bullet seating. Seems to work well

That's probably what I'll end up doing - I wanted to avoid doing dry lube during the process, but I do want to lube prior to mandrel and trim. I haven't done it during the tests because I haven't needed to trim and the nitrided mandrel does okay without lube.

 

[Buzzinga]

I been loading 6.5CM for some years now I have always full length size then ran a mandrel to get desired neck tension. Soon I will start loading for a 7 PRC and am curious but mostly ignorant, is a bushing die meant to replace mandrel use? Or do you guys run both for some reason?

Thinking about going bushing this time around to try something new and just wondering if it’s necessary for me to invest in 7 PRC mandrel as well.

Thanks and don’t be so hard on a noob.

No. A bushing die allows you to control the amount of sizing to the outside of the neck. A bushing die (Redding type-s) also has an expander ball to size the inside of the neck. This ball can be removed and a person could instead use an expander mandrel. There is no real reason to do both. This expander ball and the mandrel would have the same job.

I moved away from bushing dies to FL dies and see no reason to go back. They never showed any improvement in group size or SD's but cost a lot more and brass would still need to be FL sized eventually (usually a body die or FL neck bushing die).

A good seating die is always nice, but a sizing die doesn't need to be fancy. A standard RCBS or Forster FL die works really well. I also really like Whidden FL sizing dies--the one I have is very smooth and makes the process that much more enjoyable.

As for whether you should use an expander mandrel (usually .002" under bullet diameter), or a use the expander ball that comes on a FL die that is also usually the same .002" under bullet diameter, the old advice is to never use the included ball because it negatively affects the concentricity of the neck.

This may be true, but that advice comes from the BR world where they turn necks and can get away with only using a bushing to size the case. Since we don't normally turn necks and still want consistent neck tension, we size from the inside of the case using either an expander mandrel or expander ball that comes on a FL die. I really don't know which is better, but...

Right now, I am in favor of using an expander mandrel over the ball, but I've also shot some really small groups using the expander ball, so who really knows.

I've found cleaning the inside of the necks with an oversized bronze brush and a power drill makes the bullets seat much smoother than not cleaning the necks. Also got very low SD's.

 

[Buzzinga]

Here is a target comparing FL with the ball in and FL with an expander in a 2nd step. Not statistically significant I know, but still interesting. Groups one, three, and four are with a standard RCBS die with the ball and group two is with the same die just with the expander ball taken out and an expander mandrel used instead. Take with a grain of salt...

 

[CK1.0]

Again, this is one of those things that guys may have to try for themselves to see if the juice is worth the squeeze...

I know a bunch of guys out there would rather not add any more steps to their process or do any more work unless there's a clear upside. But, sometimes the upside is small or can be hard to gauge, and what one sees is hugely dependent on one already having every other thing squared away (which many don't), and even how or where they shoot.

My shit has been better since ditching the expander-balls and incorporating the mandrel. But... my ammo was pretty good before I started using the mandrel too... so if my club didn't go out to 1200+ yards, there's a good chance I might have not even noticed a difference...

For me, I see a difference. I'm not a religious 100-yard group shooter, so I mostly just notice it in my waterline out past 600 yards and in my SDs.

5 @ 750, shmedium/cattle gate: