Rifle Scopes Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

[RRP II]

I am look at this scope in either the Horus TRMR2 or Horus H-59 reticle. Looking for some feed back from uses of this reticle as I have no experience with Horus reticles. The other option is the G2DMR reticle. The scope will be used on a AR-10 for shooting from 100yd to 800yd.

Thanks

 

[tommyc279]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Not to sway your decision but for what those cost why don't you go with a Nightforce or IOR. I had the opportunity to use the Bushnell and does not come close to either of these scopes. Glass quality and tracking were a huge issue for that kind of money. I currently use a NXS on my tactical competition bolt gun and IOR on my JP 6.5 creedmoor AR competition rifle.

 

[RRP II]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

tommyc279

I use a friends Nightforce MLR with second focal plane and while the glass was very clear and bright I had a hard time with the thin lines of the reticle, it might just be my 67 year old eyes. I will take a close look at IOR scopes which I had not considered. Thanks

 

[Graham]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Why do you want a Horus reticle?

 

[fox.josh]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Get it. I use Horus reticles in all my scopes. They are awesome for fast precise reticle holds and not shooting in open space. As far as the bushnell it is a great scope. They have came along ways improving thier elite line and now the HDMR is a step up. Although pricy for a technically mid range scope line this scope is up there with others in the price range. you would spend double to get a SB or Night Force with the Horus reticle.

 

[steve123]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RRP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am look at this scope in either the Horus TRMR2 or Horus H-59 reticle. Looking for some feed back from uses of this reticle as I have no experience with Horus reticles. The other option is the G2DMR reticle. The scope will be used on a AR-10 for shooting from 100yd to 800yd.

Thanks </div></div>

If you plan on dialing for the most part get the G2. If you plan on holding over primarily get the H-59. Obviously you could use the G2 for holdovers as well, I just prefer the h-59 for holdovers.

Go to Horus Visions website and try their demo videos for using holdovers. It'll give you an idea as to whether you would like using holdovers or not.

http://www.horusvision.com/demos.php

 

[locobob]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I have been looking at these holdover reticules too. I really want to like the G2 but it seems like it doesn't have enough wind built into the tree to be fully usable with common cartridges. I mapped it out with both M118LR(7.62) and MK262(5.56) and with a full value 10mph wind you are holding outside the tree for either with the G2. Seems to me that if you are going to go with a tree type reticule then it should have enough tree to do the job, otherwise why bother.

 

[Eric B.]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

FWIW I'm getting the Bushnell with the Horus 59 reticle. I feel Bushnell's lifetime warranty on all its Elite line of scopes and binoculars is enough protection for me.

Getting a Bushnell HDMR H-59 scope gives me the following:
1. Horus reticle for a bargain
2. excellent optics
3. reliable turret tracking with mil dot adjustments
4. 34 mm main tube strength with a lot of adjustment in the reticle

 

[Commander Shepard]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

locobob, I shoot in Colorado where winds are over 10mph more often than not. For such conditions the G2 reticle definitely doesn't have enough wind hold marks, unless you dial elevation and use the horizontal crosshair.

I recommend Tremor2 over H59 for a semi-auto gun, as it is very fast for wind holds and the style of shooting you'd normally want a semi for. Here's mine on my 16" OBR:

 

[264Charlie]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I would go with the G2 Reticle. and the top shooter in the PRS use Bushel so I would assume the would work very very well for anyone.

I've never had a single tracking issue with mine. much more than I can say with other scopes.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the G2 Reticle. and the top shooter in the PRS use Bushel so I would assume the would work very very well for anyone.

I've never had a single tracking issue with mine. much more than I can say with other scopes.
</div></div>

My experiences with the HDMR mirrior 264Charlie only I use the H-59

If a shooter gets into a wet or grassy shooting condition the 59s grid can get in the way of detecting splash.
A shooter with the 59 also has to take the time to be sure that he is "on the right line" when holding over.
Other than that I like the 59

 

[TexasShadow]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I use the HDMR Tremor2 on my 6.5x47L build.First time out with it runnin the ATRAG system it was blowin full value steady at 25-30mph with gust up to 40mph.We took it all the way out to 1200M and made 90% hit ratio with 40 rnds.It was like cheatin!The Tremor2 and ATRAG is GTG!

 

[mkollman74]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I run the HDMR with H59 on my OBR. It works as advertised. The scope could drive railroad spikes, the glass is good, and tracking has been spot on for me (although I usually use the holds in the reticle). Buy the scope with the H59, and if you don't like it, sell it to me...

 

[dpetro64]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Does anyone have a "through the scope" picture of the HDMR with H59 reticle? Just curious as to how much of the reticle is visible on 21 power. Thank you in advance...

 

[Commander Shepard]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Here's Tremor2 at 21x, hopefully someone else can take a picture of the H59 for comparison:

 

[dpetro64]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

Thank you for the photo Commander Shepard. 8 1/2 mils is about all I get out of my HDMR with G2 reticle on 21x. I was hoping for at least 10-12 mils of holdover with the H59. Can't imagine that the TRMR2 is that much different. Guess I'll have to back it off a little for the longer pokes. Thanks again.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I have a HDMR with the Tremor2 and a Mk6 with the H59.

The Tremor2 is asinine. Why would I want wind dots that have to be calibrated with a special formula? I tried to like that reticle, but it's just dumb. It's like it was designed for guys who don't want to learn ballistics and only ever shoot one load.

The H59 is better, but it's a mess of grids.

I suggest the HDMR with the G2 reticle.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dpetro64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">8 1/2 mils is about all I get out of my HDMR with G2 reticle on 21x. I was hoping for at least 10-12 mils of holdover with the H59.</div></div>

Not to point out the obvious,,,,but you realize the field of view is going to be the same no matter what reticle is in the scope, right?

 

[locobob]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308 at 2600fps, 1000ft elev, 100yrd zero my ballistics software says for a 10mph full value wind:
200yrds = -.5mil elev, .4mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
300yrds = -1.3mil elev, .6mil wind....G2 max: .25mil
400yrds = -2.2mil elev, .9mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
500yrds = -3.3mil elev, 1.2mil wind...G2 max: 1.0mil
600yrds = -4.5mil elev, 1.4mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
700yrds = -5.9mil elev, 1.7mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
800yrds = -7.5mil elev, 2.1mil wind...G2 max: 2.0mil

Now I can see that it's do-able but seems like you'd have to do more holding in space outside the tree than you really should, especially in the 3-400yrd range. Note - I'm using the nearest horizontal line that I think could be reasonably used for holding wind.
I've also mapped this reticule with 5.56 mk262 and it's even worse - Given that Bushnell offers the G2 in the 3-12 as well as the DMR scope I think this is a valid issue.

 

[264Charlie]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308 at 2600fps, 1000ft elev, 100yrd zero my ballistics software says for a 10mph full value wind:
200yrds = -.5mil elev, .4mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
300yrds = -1.3mil elev, .6mil wind....G2 max: .25mil
400yrds = -2.2mil elev, .9mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
500yrds = -3.3mil elev, 1.2mil wind...G2 max: 1.0mil
600yrds = -4.5mil elev, 1.4mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
700yrds = -5.9mil elev, 1.7mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
800yrds = -7.5mil elev, 2.1mil wind...G2 max: 2.0mil

Now I can see that it's do-able but seems like you'd have to do more holding in space outside the tree than you really should, especially in the 3-400yrd range. Note - I'm using the nearest horizontal line that I think could be reasonably used for holding wind.
I've also mapped this reticule with 5.56 mk262 and it's even worse - Given that Bushnell offers the G2 in the 3-12 as well as the DMR scope I think this is a valid issue.
</div></div>

I'm confused, How does a G2 have a lack of windage holds? After shooting a ton of matches I never found that to be the case. You know you have a knob on the bottom and side of the scope to dial with. I can likely dial faster than anyone could find the correct hold in a Horus wit all the clutter. For example, you would never really hold for shots past 600. Way? because shots past Elevation 600 always have time on your side. If you had to you would "zero" at a mid range along the point anyway.

For the wind, if gusting past 10 you can roll your 10MPH wind on they then hold the delta.

 

[locobob]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308 at 2600fps, 1000ft elev, 100yrd zero my ballistics software says for a 10mph full value wind:
200yrds = -.5mil elev, .4mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
300yrds = -1.3mil elev, .6mil wind....G2 max: .25mil
400yrds = -2.2mil elev, .9mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
500yrds = -3.3mil elev, 1.2mil wind...G2 max: 1.0mil
600yrds = -4.5mil elev, 1.4mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
700yrds = -5.9mil elev, 1.7mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
800yrds = -7.5mil elev, 2.1mil wind...G2 max: 2.0mil

Now I can see that it's do-able but seems like you'd have to do more holding in space outside the tree than you really should, especially in the 3-400yrd range. Note - I'm using the nearest horizontal line that I think could be reasonably used for holding wind.
I've also mapped this reticule with 5.56 mk262 and it's even worse - Given that Bushnell offers the G2 in the 3-12 as well as the DMR scope I think this is a valid issue.
</div></div>

I'm confused, How does a G2 have a lack of windage holds? After shooting a ton of matches I never found that to be the case. You know you have a knob on the bottom and side of the scope to dial with. I can likely dial faster than anyone could find the correct hold in a Horus wit all the clutter. For example, you would never really hold for shots past 600. Way? because shots past Elevation 600 always have time on your side. If you had to you would "zero" at a mid range along the point anyway.

For the wind, if gusting past 10 you can roll your 10MPH wind on they then hold the delta. </div></div>

My thought is if you are going to dial then why bother with a tree reticule at all, if you are going to have a tree then it should be fully usable without dialing. Combining dialing with holding sounds like a recipe for getting lost for all but the most advanced/practiced shooters - especially with no zero stop.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308</div></div>

I may have to post that question next month when I get to talk to the Bushnell guys.

However I would venture a guess that it's because it was designed as a competition scope and you won't find a lot of the winners running a .308 at 2600fps with a 175.

However, I don't feel that it's a massive problem having to hold .2-.5 mRad into dead space. It's a much bigger problem to try to decipher 1.7 mil when you are already holding 5 mil elevation with no marks other than on the stadia lines.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can likely dial faster than anyone could find the correct hold in a Horus wit all the clutter. For example, you would never really hold for shots past 600. Way? because shots past Elevation 600 always have time on your side. If you had to you would "zero" at a mid range along the point anyway.</div></div>

I have to disagree with you on both counts.

"Always" and "Never" will bite you in the Ass. I can guarantee that I can hold faster than you can dial. That is the whole purpose of holding for elevation. Just because a target is 600+ there is no rule that says a match director has to give you tons of time. In fact I know a couple who put unrealistic time limits on things just to stress you out. While no one will get all the targets, to win a match you need to be the guy getting more than the rest.

While I have heard of guys running a "mid range" dope and holding over/under, I don't do it. I am not the smartest kid in class, so I like to do things that are simple. I know if I stick with my 100 yard zero on holds, then I am always holding over at the same values. I don't want to have to remember that I dial 2.1 mils for 400 yards last time and now I hold .5 for that same distance.

Now the last local match I got real lazy and held for everything except the cold bore. I didn't touch anything other than parallax and magnification. I figured I was running a gas gun. Might as well run it in the fastest manner possible.

 

[steve123]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308 at 2600fps, 1000ft elev, 100yrd zero my ballistics software says for a 10mph full value wind:
200yrds = -.5mil elev, .4mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
300yrds = -1.3mil elev, .6mil wind....G2 max: .25mil
400yrds = -2.2mil elev, .9mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
500yrds = -3.3mil elev, 1.2mil wind...G2 max: 1.0mil
600yrds = -4.5mil elev, 1.4mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
700yrds = -5.9mil elev, 1.7mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
800yrds = -7.5mil elev, 2.1mil wind...G2 max: 2.0mil

Now I can see that it's do-able but seems like you'd have to do more holding in space outside the tree than you really should, especially in the 3-400yrd range. Note - I'm using the nearest horizontal line that I think could be reasonably used for holding wind.
I've also mapped this reticule with 5.56 mk262 and it's even worse - Given that Bushnell offers the G2 in the 3-12 as well as the DMR scope I think this is a valid issue.
</div></div>

I'm confused, How does a G2 have a lack of windage holds? After shooting a ton of matches I never found that to be the case. You know you have a knob on the bottom and side of the scope to dial with. <span style="color: #CC0000">I can likely dial faster than anyone could find the correct hold in a Horus wit all the clutter. For example, you would never really hold for shots past 600.</span> Way? because shots past Elevation 600 always have time on your side. If you had to you would "zero" at a mid range along the point anyway.

For the wind, if gusting past 10 you can roll your 10MPH wind on they then hold the delta. </div></div>

Charlie, You know I like you but I have disagree with you on this one point in the red font. For multiple target engagements at multiple distances the Horus reticle system using holdovers is faster than dialing.

Time off the scope being used to dial is time that could have been used to concentrate on what the wind is doing or the specifics of the course of fire. Especially true the more targets there are being engaged. Like at the AZPRC, we shoot 10 shots per stage, I usually finish faster than the other guys, only because I'm not dialing. If I'm not faster it's because I'm taking my sweet time doing what I mentioned above. So far it's paying off. BTW most of our steels are past 600Y. I even holdover for the 1090Y steel. It's 7.2-7.4 mils depending on the DA.

My zero is at 100Y. No more dialing a midpoint range for me then holding under and over. The nice thing is I don't have to dial at all if I don't want to from point blank to 2000Y. Same with the wind, if there's a 25 mph wind it's no big deal I just holdoff. I look at the "clutter" or "grid pattern" of the Horus reticle as an asset, a reference point to measure POA to POI.

Like it says on my T-shirt, Rock the grid, knobs aren't all they're cracked up to be.

 

[dpetro64]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dpetro64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">8 1/2 mils is about all I get out of my HDMR with G2 reticle on 21x. I was hoping for at least 10-12 mils of holdover with the H59.</div></div>

Not to point out the obvious,,,,but you realize the field of view is going to be the same no matter what reticle is in the scope, right?
</div></div>

I understand what you are saying. However, in my limited experience with the G2 reticle, approximately 2 mils of holdover sub-tensions are obscured when the scope is dialed up to 21x. I am forced to back the scope off to around 16x in order to see and use the entire reticle.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

You will have that on most of the modern designed reticles.

Just remember a Mil is a Mil. It doesn't change size from one model of HDMR to another. To do that the scope would have to be a different magnification range or FOV.

 

[mkollman74]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locobob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like your videos and respect your opinions Lonewolf.... so what is your take on the apparent lack of windage holds on the G2? Using a 175gr. .308 at 2600fps, 1000ft elev, 100yrd zero my ballistics software says for a 10mph full value wind:
200yrds = -.5mil elev, .4mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
300yrds = -1.3mil elev, .6mil wind....G2 max: .25mil
400yrds = -2.2mil elev, .9mil wind....G2 max: .5mil
500yrds = -3.3mil elev, 1.2mil wind...G2 max: 1.0mil
600yrds = -4.5mil elev, 1.4mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
700yrds = -5.9mil elev, 1.7mil wind...G2 max: 1.5mil
800yrds = -7.5mil elev, 2.1mil wind...G2 max: 2.0mil

Now I can see that it's do-able but seems like you'd have to do more holding in space outside the tree than you really should, especially in the 3-400yrd range. Note - I'm using the nearest horizontal line that I think could be reasonably used for holding wind.
I've also mapped this reticule with 5.56 mk262 and it's even worse - Given that Bushnell offers the G2 in the 3-12 as well as the DMR scope I think this is a valid issue.
</div></div>

I'm confused, How does a G2 have a lack of windage holds? After shooting a ton of matches I never found that to be the case. You know you have a knob on the bottom and side of the scope to dial with. <span style="color: #CC0000">I can likely dial faster than anyone could find the correct hold in a Horus wit all the clutter. For example, you would never really hold for shots past 600.</span> Way? because shots past Elevation 600 always have time on your side. If you had to you would "zero" at a mid range along the point anyway.

For the wind, if gusting past 10 you can roll your 10MPH wind on they then hold the delta. </div></div>

Charlie, You know I like you but I have disagree with you on this one point in the red font. For multiple target engagements at multiple distances the Horus reticle system using holdovers is faster than dialing.

Time off the scope being used to dial is time that could have been used to concentrate on what the wind is doing or the specifics of the course of fire. Especially true the more targets there are being engaged. Like at the AZPRC, we shoot 10 shots per stage, I usually finish faster than the other guys, only because I'm not dialing. If I'm not faster it's because I'm taking my sweet time doing what I mentioned above. So far it's paying off. BTW most of our steels are past 600Y. I even holdover for the 1090Y steel. It's 7.2-7.4 mils depending on the DA.

My zero is at 100Y. No more dialing a midpoint range for me then holding under and over. The nice thing is I don't have to dial at all if I don't want to from point blank to 2000Y. Same with the wind, if there's a 25 mph wind it's no big deal I just holdoff. I look at the "clutter" or "grid pattern" of the Horus reticle as an asset, a reference point to measure POA to POI.

Like it says on my T-shirt, Rock the grid, knobs aren't all they're cracked up to be.

</div></div>
^^ This^^ IMHO. Well said...

 

[CSTactical]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

I have been using a HDMR on an 18" LR-308, it has the G2 and it works great. I strongly recommend the G2.

Mike @ CST

 

[Trigger Hippie]

Re: Bushnell HDMR 3.5-21x50 Horus?

If you can manage to finagle, download or just buy a copy of Magpul's Precision Rifle video, they'll go into great depth about the value and usage of the Horus reticles. If you haven't seen it, it's worth a gander.

I use a H25 reticle in a Horus Raptor on an 18" SPR build for high-power style shooting and hopefully F-class if I can ever find a local shoot.

One added benefit of a Horus reticle I've found is that it makes you the most popular dude at the range for helping people zero in their scopes. The rangefinding grid is in SMOA while the central grid is in mils, making it possible to measure and provide corrections for a wide range of sighting systems.

In addition to what others have said above, I've also found that good recoil-absorbing techniques and technology - muzzle brakes or comps, proper prone position, "loading" the bipod - really pays dividends with the Horus reticles, because you can watch the dirt splash of a missed round and know exactly how far it's off.

Also, as a handloader, if you're going to run a variety of bullets with different wind-bucking properties, you may want to take that into consideration in using the TREMOR reticles. The Accuracy First formula in the TREMOR is based on M118LR, I believe, and may not hold with desired precision when using different BC's. A more general-purpose grid like the H59 or H25 is somewhat more versatile in this regard. Since I handload three different projectiles ranging from 55 to 77 grains with three different BC's, I find the greater versatility to be an asset.

 

[rugger1330]

I like the H59 as the elevation crosshair does not seem as busy as the Tremor2. I don't think you can go wrong with either.

 

[Changed]

I'm a very new shooter so take that for what its worth. I shot a local match with my 308 using the Bushnell G2DMR. I had a few handicaps No DBM, No Experience, and worst of all trouble with my blind magazine (which eventually led me to top load for every shot). While watching others shoot I noticed guys were dialing wind and elevation. For static distances I would dial, but there were several stages that required up to ten shots at ranges out to 960. One particular stage had a two min. time allotment. Even single loading I was able to get reliable hits via hold-overs and hold-offs. The last three shots I took were at 766 and I missed on my first, saw splash and held off an additional .25 Mil. both of my followups were hits. Now I'm as green as can be, but now I know there is value in these types of reticles. While I wan't competitive extremely competitive over all I could defiantly get shots off faster single loading and holding for elev. and wind than guys who were dialing. Why? I could keep my eye on the target while they had to look at the turrets. That alone took as much time as single loading a cartridge.

Chip

 

[jbaird]

Go with the G2DMR its so much easier to use. Much less "Busy" you will love this recticle

 

[JohnnyC]

I like the G2 (although I run a Gen2XR, kind of similar but not the same) because I'm dialing elevation if I have time, at which point the wind holds in the bottom become moot. If I don't have time and I'm holding over, it will usually be at a range where I'm into the windage marks. Uncluttered where you don't need them, windage holds where you do.

Granted there are some situations where this doesn't ring true, but by and large for me, what I've described is exactly what happens. Either way, of one, half dozen of another. Try both, see which fits your shooting style better. Personally, I like the G2 and other less cluttered christmas tree reticles over the massive grids.