I have looked for the comparison, but have not found it. Maybe I am blind so please give me some input. Is the Vortex worth the money? Thanks again.
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Rifle Scopes Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
- Thread starter 10thMTN155
- Start date
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
"worth the money?" I would say fits the PST very well, even though they don't have a proven track record yet. For the features provided for the price the bushnell can't compare.
Mike
"worth the money?" I would say fits the PST very well, even though they don't have a proven track record yet. For the features provided for the price the bushnell can't compare.
Mike
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Vortex Viper PST 4-15x50mm FFP Selling Currently in the $850. range
Vortex PST 4-16 Initial Impressions
Bushnell 3-12x44mm FFP Selling Currently in the $530.00 range
Video Review Bushnell 4200 3-12x44mm FFP
Vortex PST are just really hitting the streets, so no direct side by side reviews. Both scopes will work. Prices and features are similar. They are both very good FFP scopes in the $500-$1000. price range. Pick one, and rock on.
Bob
Vortex Viper PST 4-15x50mm FFP Selling Currently in the $850. range
Vortex PST 4-16 Initial Impressions
Bushnell 3-12x44mm FFP Selling Currently in the $530.00 range
Video Review Bushnell 4200 3-12x44mm FFP
Vortex PST are just really hitting the streets, so no direct side by side reviews. Both scopes will work. Prices and features are similar. They are both very good FFP scopes in the $500-$1000. price range. Pick one, and rock on.
Bob
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I say vortex all the way.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1941740
I say vortex all the way.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1941740
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say vortex all the way.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1941740
</div></div>
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say vortex all the way.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1941740
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot. </div></div>
I wouldn't say crappy pictures at least not to me. I thought they were good.. I've only had one bushnell product and didn't care for it so i sent it back. But considering Vortex's reputation in general i like vortex. Not saying the bushnell is a bad scope i just gave my opinion which was the point of the OP.
Please explain the problem with the pics, they seem fine enough to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot. </div></div>
I wouldn't say crappy pictures at least not to me. I thought they were good.. I've only had one bushnell product and didn't care for it so i sent it back. But considering Vortex's reputation in general i like vortex. Not saying the bushnell is a bad scope i just gave my opinion which was the point of the OP.
Please explain the problem with the pics, they seem fine enough to me.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot. </div></div>
I wouldn't say crappy pictures at least not to me. I thought they were good.. I've only had one bushnell product and didn't care for it so i sent it back. But considering Vortex's reputation in general i like vortex. Not saying the bushnell is a bad scope i just gave my opinion which was the point of the OP.
Please explain the problem with the pics, they seem fine enough to me. </div></div>
One should NEVER base what glass may or may not look like based on a photograph. There are simply too many variables which have absolutely nothing to do with the scope which will skew the image.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You would use badly taken pics of a reticle to make your scope decision?
The Bushy is tried and true, and has the LL seal of approval. It has been vetted by the community and there isn't much negative anything about it.
The PST is just now trickling to customers who have ordered them over a year ago.
It's a no brainer. I wouldn't pick up a scope until it was in good circulation for AT LEAST 6 months. Until then, all it is is something that looks good on paper. It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
Buy the Bushnell, use the extra $350 on ammo and shoot. </div></div>
I wouldn't say crappy pictures at least not to me. I thought they were good.. I've only had one bushnell product and didn't care for it so i sent it back. But considering Vortex's reputation in general i like vortex. Not saying the bushnell is a bad scope i just gave my opinion which was the point of the OP.
Please explain the problem with the pics, they seem fine enough to me. </div></div>
One should NEVER base what glass may or may not look like based on a photograph. There are simply too many variables which have absolutely nothing to do with the scope which will skew the image.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Oh well i guess i'll have to look through one. In that case you make a good point to wait.
Oh well i guess i'll have to look through one. In that case you make a good point to wait.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I have a PST 1-4, I posted a pic of it on my rifle in another thread. The glass is good enough. However if you want FFP for not a lot of money and you want it RIGHT NOW the Bushnell 3-12 FFP is the way to go.
I have a PST 1-4, I posted a pic of it on my rifle in another thread. The glass is good enough. However if you want FFP for not a lot of money and you want it RIGHT NOW the Bushnell 3-12 FFP is the way to go.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I bought a Bushnell FFP 6x24 mil/mil on sale. The glass is pretty good. With scope in hand. I would pick the Bushy over the Vortex.
My reason for choosing the bushnell. I purchase a year ago a Vortex crossfire. I knew it was the cheap scope but didn't care as long as everything work. The turrets was so sloppy. I didn't even mount the scope. I sent it back and got my money back. This makes me think before buying a Vortex. Bushnell has a track record of a good scope.
I bought a Bushnell FFP 6x24 mil/mil on sale. The glass is pretty good. With scope in hand. I would pick the Bushy over the Vortex.
My reason for choosing the bushnell. I purchase a year ago a Vortex crossfire. I knew it was the cheap scope but didn't care as long as everything work. The turrets was so sloppy. I didn't even mount the scope. I sent it back and got my money back. This makes me think before buying a Vortex. Bushnell has a track record of a good scope.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a Bushnell FFP 6x24 mil/mil on sale. The glass is pretty good. With scope in hand. I would pick the Bushy over the Vortex.
My reason for choosing the bushnell. I purchase a year ago a Vortex crossfire. <span style="color: #FF0000">I knew it was the cheap scope but didn't care as long as everything work. The turrets was so sloppy. I didn't even mount the scope. I sent it back and got my money back. This makes me think before buying a Vortex.</span> Bushnell has a track record of a good scope. </div></div>
.
I would try to look through both if possible and make your decision from there, or wait for the word on the PST's after they've been out for awhile. I've owned 3 different vortex optics...viper binos, viper 2-7 and a crossfire 4-12. By far the crossfire was the cheapest and I knew that when purchasing it but it was only for a 22 so i didnt care as I would only hunt with it on a very rare occasion. It wouldnt focus so I sent it back, no big deal. But I CERTAINLY wouldnt judge a line based on their base line model. That would be like saying your not interesting owning a Corvette C7 because "I once had a cavalier and didnt like how it handled."
I was considering a PST but I'm in no rush to get it I'll wait and see what the word is on them first while waiting I'll let the toy fund build and if its not that great I'll wait a little longer and get a NF. The optic thats mounted now does fine for current use but upgrading is always nice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a Bushnell FFP 6x24 mil/mil on sale. The glass is pretty good. With scope in hand. I would pick the Bushy over the Vortex.
My reason for choosing the bushnell. I purchase a year ago a Vortex crossfire. <span style="color: #FF0000">I knew it was the cheap scope but didn't care as long as everything work. The turrets was so sloppy. I didn't even mount the scope. I sent it back and got my money back. This makes me think before buying a Vortex.</span> Bushnell has a track record of a good scope. </div></div>
.
I would try to look through both if possible and make your decision from there, or wait for the word on the PST's after they've been out for awhile. I've owned 3 different vortex optics...viper binos, viper 2-7 and a crossfire 4-12. By far the crossfire was the cheapest and I knew that when purchasing it but it was only for a 22 so i didnt care as I would only hunt with it on a very rare occasion. It wouldnt focus so I sent it back, no big deal. But I CERTAINLY wouldnt judge a line based on their base line model. That would be like saying your not interesting owning a Corvette C7 because "I once had a cavalier and didnt like how it handled."
I was considering a PST but I'm in no rush to get it I'll wait and see what the word is on them first while waiting I'll let the toy fund build and if its not that great I'll wait a little longer and get a NF. The optic thats mounted now does fine for current use but upgrading is always nice.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I quess the point didn't translate. While I bought a crossfire. The turrets was sloppy. By that I was making a comparison to other scopes in the same price range. Even though a person spends less, should he settled for less than normal.
I agree and wish the Vortex PST are great. Would love to get one. Great price on them for the features. But the features have to work. I still would wait until more of them are out there.
I did the samething when Ford came out with there diesel more 8 years ago. They had problems but they fix them. I just didn't want to be on the front end of things.
I quess the point didn't translate. While I bought a crossfire. The turrets was sloppy. By that I was making a comparison to other scopes in the same price range. Even though a person spends less, should he settled for less than normal.
I agree and wish the Vortex PST are great. Would love to get one. Great price on them for the features. But the features have to work. I still would wait until more of them are out there.
I did the samething when Ford came out with there diesel more 8 years ago. They had problems but they fix them. I just didn't want to be on the front end of things.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
</div></div>
Yes. I own a NF on one of my rifles.
And a bunch of Bushnells on other rifles.
But that isn't the point, is it? The point is that Vortex stopped selling them and went back to the drawing board, and they didn't do this because everything was hunky dory. They did this because the scopes weren't what they were supposed to be.
So the "only" thing(s) wrong with the first iteration of the PSTs were that the turrets didn't work as they should and the reticle was canted. Got it.
You say you "test [your] scopes critically" and you're okay with that?
I see.
My argument is to not trust a scope that was released, called back because of serious manufacturing (or design) errors, then re-released with very few people having seen them, fewer having touched them, even fewer having used them, and no one having the opportunity to test them adequately in the field.
Why is that a bad stance to take?
Unless you're some kind of "Vortex guy" that is.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
</div></div>
Yes. I own a NF on one of my rifles.
And a bunch of Bushnells on other rifles.
But that isn't the point, is it? The point is that Vortex stopped selling them and went back to the drawing board, and they didn't do this because everything was hunky dory. They did this because the scopes weren't what they were supposed to be.
So the "only" thing(s) wrong with the first iteration of the PSTs were that the turrets didn't work as they should and the reticle was canted. Got it.
You say you "test [your] scopes critically" and you're okay with that?
I see.
My argument is to not trust a scope that was released, called back because of serious manufacturing (or design) errors, then re-released with very few people having seen them, fewer having touched them, even fewer having used them, and no one having the opportunity to test them adequately in the field.
Why is that a bad stance to take?
Unless you're some kind of "Vortex guy" that is.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article
Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article </div></div>
I would NEVER argue that scopes of all brands and prices don't occasionally suffer from problems. That's simply the nature of manufacturing. Sometimes shit happens.
But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept.
With the original PST, the problems are not isolated (as you seem to imply). It isn't a one-off problem. It's a systemic failure in the design and/or manufacturing process. It's like that for ANY product in ANY price range. One failure is a lemon. One failure doesn't justify widespread halting of production and a redesign before re-releasing it back on the market.
With Vortex's reputation, I have no doubt that they would fix the problems and make a very good product. But the history of this product doesn't inspire confidence, and because of that history I wouldn't touch a PST with a 10' foot pole until it has been properly vetted and tested by the community for some length of time. This is just being a smart consumer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article </div></div>
I would NEVER argue that scopes of all brands and prices don't occasionally suffer from problems. That's simply the nature of manufacturing. Sometimes shit happens.
But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept.
With the original PST, the problems are not isolated (as you seem to imply). It isn't a one-off problem. It's a systemic failure in the design and/or manufacturing process. It's like that for ANY product in ANY price range. One failure is a lemon. One failure doesn't justify widespread halting of production and a redesign before re-releasing it back on the market.
With Vortex's reputation, I have no doubt that they would fix the problems and make a very good product. But the history of this product doesn't inspire confidence, and because of that history I wouldn't touch a PST with a 10' foot pole until it has been properly vetted and tested by the community for some length of time. This is just being a smart consumer.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article </div></div>
I would NEVER argue that scopes of all brands and prices don't occasionally suffer from problems. That's simply the nature of manufacturing. Sometimes shit happens.
But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept.
With the original PST, the problems are not isolated (as you seem to imply). It isn't a one-off problem. It's a systemic failure in the design and/or manufacturing process. It's like that for ANY product in ANY price range. One failure is a lemon. One failure doesn't justify widespread halting of production and a redesign before re-releasing it back on the market.
With Vortex's reputation, I have no doubt that they would fix the problems and make a very good product. But the history of this product doesn't inspire confidence, and because of that history I wouldn't touch a PST with a 10' foot pole until it has been properly vetted and tested by the community for some length of time. This is just being a smart consumer. </div></div>
Sorry to jump in here fellas, But I happen to be one of the few who got the original PST last year. It has been flawless in performance and I don't have a single complaint about it.
eleaf, I understand your point, but not with your opinion. Myself and many NF owners that shoot with me were very impressed with the scope, many of whom wanted to order one once the delay ceased. I must have missed the story about Vortex "halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch" as you put it. I certainly could have missed it, but I dont think I did. I understand that they delayed delivery so they could do some revision on the remaining scopes, but that doesn't equate to starting from scratch. I was never contacted by Vortex to return mine and have it updated, and since it has worked perfectly I saw no need to. There were plenty of offers by Vortex reps (scott) and such, but I didn't have a problem with it.
Edited to add: I have dealt with Bushnell before. Wont happen again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey man, I never said I would not want my scope out of the first batch fixed. I had a problem with you calling them a piece of shit...thats it.
The scopes sent out were perfectly usable, they just had those small issues. Its not like every one that went out had reticle cant. Hell, as far as this forum is concerned, the only one we KNOW for sure had the cant was JonA's.
Im not defending the fact Vortex shouldve sent out scopes with issues, Im defending them from people reading your post seeing "piece of shit" and thats all they take away from this thread. Just watch the way you throw around those words is all.
I know there has been at least one catastrophic NF failure on the scopes first use with the zero stop locking the whole turret up (wish I could find the article again), but Im not going to curse a whole line of scopes with the term "piece of shit" because of that.
Edit: Found the article </div></div>
I would NEVER argue that scopes of all brands and prices don't occasionally suffer from problems. That's simply the nature of manufacturing. Sometimes shit happens.
But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept.
With the original PST, the problems are not isolated (as you seem to imply). It isn't a one-off problem. It's a systemic failure in the design and/or manufacturing process. It's like that for ANY product in ANY price range. One failure is a lemon. One failure doesn't justify widespread halting of production and a redesign before re-releasing it back on the market.
With Vortex's reputation, I have no doubt that they would fix the problems and make a very good product. But the history of this product doesn't inspire confidence, and because of that history I wouldn't touch a PST with a 10' foot pole until it has been properly vetted and tested by the community for some length of time. This is just being a smart consumer. </div></div>
Sorry to jump in here fellas, But I happen to be one of the few who got the original PST last year. It has been flawless in performance and I don't have a single complaint about it.
eleaf, I understand your point, but not with your opinion. Myself and many NF owners that shoot with me were very impressed with the scope, many of whom wanted to order one once the delay ceased. I must have missed the story about Vortex "halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch" as you put it. I certainly could have missed it, but I dont think I did. I understand that they delayed delivery so they could do some revision on the remaining scopes, but that doesn't equate to starting from scratch. I was never contacted by Vortex to return mine and have it updated, and since it has worked perfectly I saw no need to. There were plenty of offers by Vortex reps (scott) and such, but I didn't have a problem with it.
Edited to add: I have dealt with Bushnell before. Wont happen again.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I think the Bushnell would be great if you could get something besides a standard mil-dot. I'm leaning towards the PST for the reticle. I think both would be sufficient for mid-range work though.
I think the Bushnell would be great if you could get something besides a standard mil-dot. I'm leaning towards the PST for the reticle. I think both would be sufficient for mid-range work though.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Vortex reticles are very nice. However the bushnell 3-12 is 300$ less, available right now, and people like them.
Your call but honestly if you want FFP tactical on a budget you'd be stupid not to get the bushnell. It's not going to be on sale forever.
Vortex reticles are very nice. However the bushnell 3-12 is 300$ less, available right now, and people like them.
Your call but honestly if you want FFP tactical on a budget you'd be stupid not to get the bushnell. It's not going to be on sale forever.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
My friends Vortex looked like a snowy day at dusk compared to my Bushnell 4200.
It also threw what looked like rubber seal (still no idea what it was) all over the reticle after the first day on his new .308 Perhaps he just had a lemon, I realize all scopes have had their issues....but it was enough for me to never consider one.
Bushnell 4200 is a proven scope and has Excellent glass.
And I agree with the above...it's senseless to try to compare pics through the scope (in most cases). I'll try to find the pictures, but my $50 fixed 6x leapers looks 'just as good' as my Trijicon tr24 when I took pics with my P&S camera. However, the difference in 'real life' is night and day.
My friends Vortex looked like a snowy day at dusk compared to my Bushnell 4200.
It also threw what looked like rubber seal (still no idea what it was) all over the reticle after the first day on his new .308 Perhaps he just had a lemon, I realize all scopes have had their issues....but it was enough for me to never consider one.
Bushnell 4200 is a proven scope and has Excellent glass.
And I agree with the above...it's senseless to try to compare pics through the scope (in most cases). I'll try to find the pictures, but my $50 fixed 6x leapers looks 'just as good' as my Trijicon tr24 when I took pics with my P&S camera. However, the difference in 'real life' is night and day.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
+1 on Bushnell 4200 FFP. Love mine. No experience or bias with Vortex. But for less money and will be in your hands within 3-4 days, it sure is hard for me to imagine spending an extra $350 out of my gun fund. Once I have enough saved up, I will likely skip right past any perceived improvement a PST might offer and look for a used mil/mil NF or USO. But for now i'm very happy with the Bushnell (and I was not a Bushell fan prior to this scope either) YMMV
+1 on Bushnell 4200 FFP. Love mine. No experience or bias with Vortex. But for less money and will be in your hands within 3-4 days, it sure is hard for me to imagine spending an extra $350 out of my gun fund. Once I have enough saved up, I will likely skip right past any perceived improvement a PST might offer and look for a used mil/mil NF or USO. But for now i'm very happy with the Bushnell (and I was not a Bushell fan prior to this scope either) YMMV
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Whatever.... I played with a Viper PST FFP for a while and it's a DAMN nice scope. Of course the first one's are going to have some issues to work out. This current batch that's shipping now seems to be very nice. Remember everyone has issues on first gen products... Even Apple (one of the most valuable companies in the world) is notorious for having flaws in first the first generations of stuff they release. I'm an Apple guy through and through. I know this so I wait and usually the second gen is great.
Whatever.... I played with a Viper PST FFP for a while and it's a DAMN nice scope. Of course the first one's are going to have some issues to work out. This current batch that's shipping now seems to be very nice. Remember everyone has issues on first gen products... Even Apple (one of the most valuable companies in the world) is notorious for having flaws in first the first generations of stuff they release. I'm an Apple guy through and through. I know this so I wait and usually the second gen is great.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever.... I played with a Viper PST FFP for a while and it's a DAMN nice scope. Of course the first one's are going to have some issues to work out. This current batch that's shipping now seems to be very nice. Remember everyone has issues on first gen products... Even Apple (one of the most valuable companies in the world) is notorious for having flaws in first the first generations of stuff they release. I'm an Apple guy through and through. I know this so I wait and usually the second gen is great. </div></div>
This is why most of the "Bushnell advocates" are offering their opinion, it is money better spent on the 4200 FFP. Not because the PST isn't a great scope. But because, it is more important to get a scope you can shoot with now, that you can depend on now and save over $300 to boot! Let Vortex smooth out the final wrinkles on their own time. When that time comes, you can sell the Bushnell or move it to another gun and go buy your PST, IOR, NF, Razor etc. Too many people get their feathers ruffled when it ain't personal 99% of the time
FWIW, I waited a few years to buy my Ipod and it has been trouble free all 6 years I've had it.
Money well spent.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever.... I played with a Viper PST FFP for a while and it's a DAMN nice scope. Of course the first one's are going to have some issues to work out. This current batch that's shipping now seems to be very nice. Remember everyone has issues on first gen products... Even Apple (one of the most valuable companies in the world) is notorious for having flaws in first the first generations of stuff they release. I'm an Apple guy through and through. I know this so I wait and usually the second gen is great. </div></div>
This is why most of the "Bushnell advocates" are offering their opinion, it is money better spent on the 4200 FFP. Not because the PST isn't a great scope. But because, it is more important to get a scope you can shoot with now, that you can depend on now and save over $300 to boot! Let Vortex smooth out the final wrinkles on their own time. When that time comes, you can sell the Bushnell or move it to another gun and go buy your PST, IOR, NF, Razor etc. Too many people get their feathers ruffled when it ain't personal 99% of the time
FWIW, I waited a few years to buy my Ipod and it has been trouble free all 6 years I've had it.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I like my 1-4 PST a lot. If the rest of the PST's turn out just as well I think they will be the "go to" scopes for the "I can't afford a NF so what should I get" crowd.
As far as glass goes I had no problems hitting clay birds at 350-400 yards using reticle holdovers at 4x.
I like my 1-4 PST a lot. If the rest of the PST's turn out just as well I think they will be the "go to" scopes for the "I can't afford a NF so what should I get" crowd.
As far as glass goes I had no problems hitting clay birds at 350-400 yards using reticle holdovers at 4x.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I'm pullin for vortex, hopefully they can get everything in order and these scopes hit a homerun as anticipated!!!
Never used a bushnell have no opinion on there elite product. But I would never compare an elite to a wal-mart special bushnell. Therefore the crossfire should not be compared to the pst line.
I do own a 1-4 razor and am very pleased. The glass is amazing, actually I would say the best I own, compared to my NF, Leupold mark 4, and the SSHS( I owned)!
I'm pullin for vortex, hopefully they can get everything in order and these scopes hit a homerun as anticipated!!!
Never used a bushnell have no opinion on there elite product. But I would never compare an elite to a wal-mart special bushnell. Therefore the crossfire should not be compared to the pst line.
I do own a 1-4 razor and am very pleased. The glass is amazing, actually I would say the best I own, compared to my NF, Leupold mark 4, and the SSHS( I owned)!
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
eleaf, i see you point in that they did have to halt shipping, however if believe that this speaks to the manufacturer. Yes it was inconveineint but they could have easily continued shipping them and have a lot more money now then they do. However, the fact that the second there was any discontentment over their scopes they took them back to fix whatever made people unhappy with them shows that it is a great company who doesnt want their name associated with crap. To me, it just speaks to their integrity and commitment to having a nice product but thats just how I interpret it.
eleaf, i see you point in that they did have to halt shipping, however if believe that this speaks to the manufacturer. Yes it was inconveineint but they could have easily continued shipping them and have a lot more money now then they do. However, the fact that the second there was any discontentment over their scopes they took them back to fix whatever made people unhappy with them shows that it is a great company who doesnt want their name associated with crap. To me, it just speaks to their integrity and commitment to having a nice product but thats just how I interpret it.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
</div></div>
What he said. Or maybe I missed something?
In exactly what way are the original PST scopes a piece of shit?
OK I see you based your statement on an arbitrary standard that you made up, then called it a simple concept. I would have to agree with you on the simple part.
I think the OP would likely be happy with either scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It also helps to remember that the PST was already botched up so badly that Vortex had to start from scratch because the original ones were pieces of shit.
</div></div>
Let me guess, you own NF?
There are several PST owners from the first batch that are still using them and loving them, so its quite immature for you to go out and call them "pieces of shit" when you have probably never touched one yourself.
The only thing that was wrong with them was the turret resistance. The reticle cant was well within Bushnells and even some Euro manufactures specs, and 99% of people would have never noticed it, it just happened to get into the hands of a guy that tests his scopes critically. And they are replacing them at no charge even though most manufacturers, namely Bushnell wouldve just said it was within spec and your SOL.
</div></div>
What he said. Or maybe I missed something?
In exactly what way are the original PST scopes a piece of shit?
OK I see you based your statement on an arbitrary standard that you made up, then called it a simple concept. I would have to agree with you on the simple part.
I think the OP would likely be happy with either scope.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
so i see that a lot of people have Bushnell scopes so I'm assuming that they are pretty reliable... are they reliable enough to put on a .300wm for a mile gun? I'm looking at the 4200 series. PM if you don't mind
so i see that a lot of people have Bushnell scopes so I'm assuming that they are pretty reliable... are they reliable enough to put on a .300wm for a mile gun? I'm looking at the 4200 series. PM if you don't mind
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I was pretty set on the bushnell based on LL and others reviews, but there's something about buying a discontinued scope (3x12FFP or 6X24FFP) that concerns me. If I have a warranty problem and the scope needed to be replaced, what would I be getting back? For that reason, and that of the PST reticle, I am pretty sure I'm going to be purchasing a PST 4x16FFP.
I was pretty set on the bushnell based on LL and others reviews, but there's something about buying a discontinued scope (3x12FFP or 6X24FFP) that concerns me. If I have a warranty problem and the scope needed to be replaced, what would I be getting back? For that reason, and that of the PST reticle, I am pretty sure I'm going to be purchasing a PST 4x16FFP.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
I have been able to see the 4x16 FFP Vortex PST first hand. GREAT glass, and everything I want. Vortex customer service is also top notch....No question, I would go with the PST.
I have been able to see the 4x16 FFP Vortex PST first hand. GREAT glass, and everything I want. Vortex customer service is also top notch....No question, I would go with the PST.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oh_heck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was pretty set on the bushnell based on LL and others reviews, but there's something about buying a discontinued scope (3x12FFP or 6X24FFP) that concerns me. If I have a warranty problem and the scope needed to be replaced, what would I be getting back? For that reason, and that of the PST reticle, I am pretty sure I'm going to be purchasing a PST 4x16FFP. </div></div>
I havent needed to send a Bushnell back, but they just took out the 3200, 4200, and 6500 designations this year. The same scopes are available they are just renamed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oh_heck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was pretty set on the bushnell based on LL and others reviews, but there's something about buying a discontinued scope (3x12FFP or 6X24FFP) that concerns me. If I have a warranty problem and the scope needed to be replaced, what would I be getting back? For that reason, and that of the PST reticle, I am pretty sure I'm going to be purchasing a PST 4x16FFP. </div></div>
I havent needed to send a Bushnell back, but they just took out the 3200, 4200, and 6500 designations this year. The same scopes are available they are just renamed.
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept. </div></div>
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what the original problem was. Other than some onesey-twosey isolated issues, the main complaint (and from what I could tell, from only a few very vocal and forum-visible first adopters) was that the turrets turned a little too easy. Now somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I never touched one of these and am relying on others accounts, but this was very subjective and not everyone even agreed that they were too light in their resistance.
My Falcon Menace would adjust itself if carried slung. I didn't post a huge writeup about that. Where are the pages of posts demanding that Falcon fix this issue?
Vortex *voluntarily* stopped production to redesign the turrets to have more resistance. Scott @ Liberty Optics told me that he thought the old turrets were OK the way they were. I would say this is much more of a way in which a company wants itself to be viewed as opposed to a "problem". It certainly does not warrant the "piece of shit" comment. That was out of line.
I dare say, no matter what Vortex might say in public, that given this scenario to do over, they would have quietly replaced the scopes for the vocal few and phased the change into existing production. Proof? The new Razor ocular. Did Vortex stop production of the Razor and wait to have the new design? NO. I'd say lesson learned.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But halting the production on an entire line of a product, recalling them and having to start over from scratch is not the same as the occasional failure (as you seem to imply).
When a product performs so poorly that it has to be taken off the market, it's a piece of shit. That's what 2+2= IMO. That's a simple concept. </div></div>
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what the original problem was. Other than some onesey-twosey isolated issues, the main complaint (and from what I could tell, from only a few very vocal and forum-visible first adopters) was that the turrets turned a little too easy. Now somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I never touched one of these and am relying on others accounts, but this was very subjective and not everyone even agreed that they were too light in their resistance.
My Falcon Menace would adjust itself if carried slung. I didn't post a huge writeup about that. Where are the pages of posts demanding that Falcon fix this issue?
Vortex *voluntarily* stopped production to redesign the turrets to have more resistance. Scott @ Liberty Optics told me that he thought the old turrets were OK the way they were. I would say this is much more of a way in which a company wants itself to be viewed as opposed to a "problem". It certainly does not warrant the "piece of shit" comment. That was out of line.
I dare say, no matter what Vortex might say in public, that given this scenario to do over, they would have quietly replaced the scopes for the vocal few and phased the change into existing production. Proof? The new Razor ocular. Did Vortex stop production of the Razor and wait to have the new design? NO. I'd say lesson learned.
John
Re: Bushnell VS Vortex Viper PST? Please help me
Any company that is willing to pull a product for something as minor as the issues mentioned in order to make the product even better, has my business hands down. Just a side note, I spoke to Vortex last week and one of the sales reps. there told me that while they were modifying the turrets, they decided to add a higher quality redicule as per their decission to make the scope even better. I'll continue to wait on mine.
Any company that is willing to pull a product for something as minor as the issues mentioned in order to make the product even better, has my business hands down. Just a side note, I spoke to Vortex last week and one of the sales reps. there told me that while they were modifying the turrets, they decided to add a higher quality redicule as per their decission to make the scope even better. I'll continue to wait on mine.
