Night Vision Buy Once Cry Once PVS-14 Gen 3

[voip-ninja]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a PVS-14 setup and even after reading guides, etc., I'm a little overwhelmed, especially since the top end units are north of $4,000.

My primary uses are screwing around (night hikes, etc.) and defensive/SHTF uses, my only experience using NVGs is out hunting with friends and a couple of them have 10+ year old garbage Gen-2 systems. I've taken a lot of carbine weapons classes but never taken a night class and that is something I am looking at doing sometime in the next 6-12 months. So the non-screwing around use for this expensive set up is something I can run on some kind of head gear in a defensive scenario or putting behind a compatible RDS on one of my carbines... although perhaps it makes more sense to just use my DBAL I2 as an aiming device... haven't done any training or practice so don't know what will work for me yet.

Initially I was planning on getting a white filmless gen3 Harris set up from TNVC as they have a rock solid reputation and will definitely be around for any warranty needs that come up. The 20+ week lead times though have me considering other options.

Surgeon Shooter and UNV are also on my list. In Surgeon's case he made it clear that he periodically gets access to small numbers of 20UA and 20UM tubes, however he can't guarantee anything beyond minimum specs and it's not clear if he provides any kind of long term warranty... he seems like a fantastic guy and has a lot of knowledge but always a risk of no long term support on an expensive purchase with a one man operation.

Does anyone know what kind of Gen-3 filmless tubes UNV is providing? They are only listing a 14-28 day lead time vs the 20 weeks TNVC is quoting and they are also offering some included accessories (soft case, j-arm, skull crusher, etc.). They also have Vyper builds and it seems that the Vyper housing is substantially better than the regular PVS-14 from a durability/maintenance perspective.

Any other options I should consider if I'm looking to blow a big wad on a go big or go home NV purchase?

Couple other brief (I hope) Qs.

What are my options for having a setup that allows me to switch between having the unit helmet (nightcap) mounted and putting it on a pic rail behind an RDS?
I don't really understand what the difference is on the many different flip-up mounts.... do they all shut the unit off automatically? Are the described advantages of something like a Wilcox L4 G11 for better head positioning worth the steeper asking price? I would probably start out with a Crye Nightcap as I don't anticipate normally needing a bump helmet for what I'm using it for.

Probably some other questions.... sorry as I'm sure some of this comes up from noobs repeatedly.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a PVS-14 setup and even after reading guides, etc., I'm a little overwhelmed, especially since the top end units are north of $4,000.

My primary uses are screwing around (night hikes, etc.) and defensive/SHTF uses, my only experience using NVGs is out hunting with friends and a couple of them have 10+ year old garbage Gen-2 systems. I've taken a lot of carbine weapons classes but never taken a night class and that is something I am looking at doing sometime in the next 6-12 months. So the non-screwing around use for this expensive set up is something I can run on some kind of head gear in a defensive scenario or putting behind a compatible RDS on one of my carbines... although perhaps it makes more sense to just use my DBAL I2 as an aiming device... haven't done any training or practice so don't know what will work for me yet.

Initially I was planning on getting a white filmless gen3 Harris set up from TNVC as they have a rock solid reputation and will definitely be around for any warranty needs that come up. The 20+ week lead times though have me considering other options.

Surgeon Shooter and UNV are also on my list. In Surgeon's case he made it clear that he periodically gets access to small numbers of 20UA and 20UM tubes, however he can't guarantee anything beyond minimum specs and it's not clear if he provides any kind of long term warranty... he seems like a fantastic guy and has a lot of knowledge but always a risk of no long term support on an expensive purchase with a one man operation.

Does anyone know what kind of Gen-3 filmless tubes UNV is providing? They are only listing a 14-28 day lead time vs the 20 weeks TNVC is quoting and they are also offering some included accessories (soft case, j-arm, skull crusher, etc.). They also have Vyper builds and it seems that the Vyper housing is substantially better than the regular PVS-14 from a durability/maintenance perspective.

Any other options I should consider if I'm looking to blow a big wad on a go big or go home NV purchase?

Couple other brief (I hope) Qs.

What are my options for having a setup that allows me to switch between having the unit helmet (nightcap) mounted and putting it on a pic rail behind an RDS?
I don't really understand what the difference is on the many different flip-up mounts.... do they all shut the unit off automatically? Are the described advantages of something like a Wilcox L4 G11 for better head positioning worth the steeper asking price? I would probably start out with a Crye Nightcap as I don't anticipate normally needing a bump helmet for what I'm using it for.

Probably some other questions.... sorry as I'm sure some of this comes up from noobs repeatedly.

Thank you for the consideration, L3 is doing their best to catch up on tubes. Between all their SOCOM orders of Unfilmed White Phos, all the aviation folks are now transitioning over as well that is cutting into their tube supply as well. They used to have a good amount if reserve tubes early this year, but that has all dried up. This from L3 during my last meeting with them.

We have set sales records over the last 6 months during these unprecedented times. We always quote worst case scenarios on lead times. Thank you again for the consideration and feel free to PM me for anything.

Also, all our TNV-14's come standard with a full kit that includes a J-arm. Thank you again.

 

[voip-ninja]

Thank you for the consideration, L3 is doing their best to catch up on tubes. Between all their SOCOM orders of Unfilmed White Phos, all the aviation folks are now transitioning over as well that is cutting into their tube supply as well. They used to have a good amount if reserve tubes early this year, but that has all dried up. This from L3 during my last meeting with them.

We have set sales records over the last 6 months during these unprecedented times. We always quote worst case scenarios on lead times. Thank you again for the consideration and feel free to PM me for anything.

Also, all our TNV-14's come standard with a full kit that includes a J-arm. Thank you again.

Thanks Victor for the response.

 

[TheHorta]

Order a new PVS-14 from TNVC. Then immediately buy a cheap, used PVS-14 on the PX/ARF EE/eBay. If you buy it right, you won’t lose a penny. When your TNVC unit arrives, you’ll have 20 weeks of NOD experience under your belt.

A properly built PVS-14 is a very rugged piece of kit. Very little to go wrong, so buying from Jay isn’t going to hurt you.

UNV is great. I’ve spent around $100K with them. If I have any knock against them, it’s that whoever assembles their NV cuts corners and seems to lack attention to detail. I got a $10K set of L3 WP DTNVGs and sent them to a high-end shop to have them completely reworked. They were much improved after that.

That was 1-2 years ago, so things could well have changed.

 

[voip-ninja]

Order a new PVS-14 from TNVC. Then immediately buy a cheap, used PVS-14 on the PX/ARF EE/eBay. If you buy it right, you won’t lose a penny. When your TNVC unit arrives, you’ll have 20 weeks of NOD experience under your belt.

A properly built PVS-14 is a very rugged piece of kit. Very little to go wrong, so buying from Jay isn’t going to hurt you.

UNV is great. I’ve spent around $100K with them. If I have any knock against them, it’s that whoever assembles their NV cuts corners and seems to lack attention to detail. I got a $10K set of L3 WP DTNVGs and sent them to a high-end shop to have them completely reworked. They were much improved after that.

That was 1-2 years ago, so things could well have changed.

Thanks for the info. I don’t have the budget to purchase two NVGs this month so purchasing a used u it with the intention of flipping it is not really an option. Not to mention I have been doing biz on eBay for nearly 20 years and have been burned many many times.
Jay does seem to be my best option if I don’t want to wait.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Maybe the OP, Horta or Victor can elaborate on the differences, pro's and con's of 20UA and 20UM tubes. I assume they are related to L3 Gen3 WP Filmless. (If I'm correct) Beyond that, I'm clueless.

edit; Looks like 20 UA has highest SNR, Resolution and FOM, correct ?

 

[Downtown]

You will burn a spot on your tube if you mount it behind a red dot for any appreciable amount of time. Even on NV settings. Fact. It's not the brightness, it's the immobility of the dot.

 

[MarinePMI]

Jay is GTG. Has been around for years. Buy with confidence.

 

[voip-ninja]

You will burn a spot on your tube if you mount it behind a red dot for any appreciable amount of time. Even on NV settings. Fact. It's not the brightness, it's the immobility of the dot.

I did not know this, thanks.

 

[voip-ninja]

Maybe the OP, Horta or Victor can elaborate on the differences, pro's and con's of 20UA and 20UM tubes. I assume they are related to L3 Gen3 WP Filmless. (If I'm correct) Beyond that, I'm clueless.

edit; Looks like 20 UA has highest SNR, Resolution and FOM, correct ?

If I read it correctly 18UA and 18UM are the aviation and military grade tubes currently being specced by various contracts in use by the government.

20UA and 20UM have higher FOM and fewer permitted blemishes (more info can be found in various forum posts at ar15 dot com etc).

Reality is that more than likely most current production 18UA and 18UM tubes are above 20UA/20UM levels but the only way of being assured of that level of performance is getting a 20UA/20UM tube. Manufacturers more than likely bin their tubes after testing and anything at or above certain minimums lands in the 20 or 18 pile and others become com-spec devices (too many blemishes, etc).

From my conversation with Jay the price delta was only several hundred dollars between an 18UA/18UM tube and the higher spec tubes whereas other vendors don't typically provide this info other than indicating what contract level their devices might meet.

 

[voip-ninja]

Jay is GTG. Has been around for years. Buy with confidence.

Yes I spoke with him on the phone he seems like a solid individual. I'm just pointing out that there is more security in long term support with a larger company that is offering long term warranties on their devices. This is not a disparagement on any individual, just based on doing business with lots of different folks over the years.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

TNVC now makes a small, relatively inexpensive IR laser for your carbine, a Tor I think they call it. I am playing with one and it is thoroughly OK compared to much larger, bulkier options. It works, and it's cheap, but I don't know how it holds up over time or abuse. Not yet, anyway.
On the setup, in NV, "buy once cry once" simply does not apply. You may think it does, but it don't: you'll get one PVS14, then love it and decide you need to go dual, then you'll need a thermal, then an IR illuminator and IR laser; then something new will come out that obsolesces what you have in terms of image quality/capabilities. NV isn't like a new caliber or a cool new paint scheme, it is big leaps in technology - like you mentioned, gen2-to-gen3.

To that end, get a mount that is ready for dual PVS-14 setup. Also, it will cost a bit more, but do a dovetail setup rather than the cheapo bayonet mount. The dovetail locks up tighter with far less "play" between the pieces.

From personal experience, I've run whites and greens and am now using green with an amber filter and, for my eyes, it works better than the white phos. Many will disagree on that, but I run what works for me. The point: try a few things, if you can, before you put money on anything. If you can't do that, I would genuinely say get in line at TNVC and wait. If you take a shortcut now to save a few weeks, you might really, really regret it later!

 

[TheHorta]

The fun part is, they also make 24UA tubes as well. Those are typically reserved for SOCOM, but a couple of select dealers have been able to get them. Typical FOMs in the 2800+ range.

 

[voip-ninja]

The fun part is, they also make 24UA tubes as well. Those are typically reserved for SOCOM, but a couple of select dealers have been able to get them. Typical FOMs in the 2800+ range.

Yeah I saw there were 22s but it's not surprising that there are 24s for the guys at the really sharp end of the stick that need the best and $$ not much of a concern since Uncle Sam is footing the bill.

Honestly if I wanted to save $$ I would consider a Photonis 4G (really 2G on steroids?) setup but from what I can see it would only save me perhaps $1K and not sure if it's worth it when investing this kind of money, especially from a long term re-sale perspective. The top end Harris stuff will likely hold its value better if there was a scenario down the line where I had to unload something.

 

[voip-ninja]

Question for the brain trust - Is there any particular reason not go to with an L3 tube over a Harris/Elbit tube? My understanding is that specs/performance between the two manufacturers should be pretty neck and neck currently.

Thanks.

 

[TheHorta]

Absolutely no reason not to.

Availability and price would basically be the deciding factors. L3 Filmless are generally better performers at similar FOM.

 

[NateSavannah]

buy once cry once pvs14 you say? gotta go full potato like I did.
Hyper-14 chassis with dep ether eye piece with 2750 fom l3 unfilmed tubes. did two of them with a KAC bridge.
I spent more per 14 than alot of people spend on RNVG binos.

 

[onion]

What are my options for having a setup that allows me to switch between having the unit helmet (nightcap) mounted and putting it on a pic rail behind an RDS? It is generally not recommended to put units built for helmet use on a rifle. Over time, the recoil impact can damage the tube and cause premature failure. I know this is a bit of a contrarian opinion for this website, but it is generally accepted as fact in the night vision community.

I don't really understand what the difference is on the many different flip-up mounts.... do they all shut the unit off automatically? Are the described advantages of something like a Wilcox L4 G11 for better head positioning worth the steeper asking price? I would probably start out with a Crye Nightcap as I don't anticipate normally needing a bump helmet for what I'm using it for. The main difference between the variety of flip up helmet mounts is the amount of play in the system. A Wilcox G24 is one of the finest mounts you can get, but quite expensive at around $400. You can get a Norotos Rhino or Rhino II for around $100 and get by with that then upgrade in the future if you feel you need it.

 

[MarinePMI]

Personally, I think if you don’t need the top of the line stuff, you’re just blowing cash.

There’s always going to be something newer and better. For SHTF, the other side likely won’t be wearing NV, so an illuminator of some type will be a benefit, and pose no danger.

Besides, who’s to say digital NV isn’t about to make a leap into Gen 3 territory? Because when that happens, all the PVS-14’s are going take a hit. Digital NV and thermal will make fused full spectrum IR NV a reality, at a pretty low cost. And then the 14’s will be “old school”.

JMTCW...

 

[onion]

Personally, I think if you don’t need the top of the line stuff, you’re just blowing cash.

There’s always going to be something newer and better. For SHTF, the other side likely won’t be wearing NV, so an illuminator of some type will be a benefit, and pose no danger.

Besides, who’s to say digital NV isn’t about to make a leap in Gen 3 territory? Because when that happens, all the PVS-14’s are going take a hit. Digital NV and thermal will make fused full spectrum IR NV a reality, at a pretty low cost.

JMTCW...

I agree, I went with a mid-range PVS-14 WP thin film. I've done night driving, night off-roading, night shooting, night hiking, etc. Sure, it could be crisper, but as far as usability goes, it hasn't slowed me down or stopped me from doing anything. I think the sweet spot with NVGs right now is around $2500-$3250. We'll see what happens when digital finally makes its way to the market, but 14s will probably still be around as a "tried and true" option that provides more than adequate quality for a pretty decent price.

 

[voip-ninja]

Personally, I think if you don’t need the top of the line stuff, you’re just blowing cash.

There’s always going to be something newer and better. For SHTF, the other side likely won’t be wearing NV, so an illuminator of some type will be a benefit, and pose no danger.

Besides, who’s to say digital NV isn’t about to make a leap into Gen 3 territory? Because when that happens, all the PVS-14’s are going take a hit. Digital NV and thermal will make fused full spectrum IR NV a reality, at a pretty low cost. And then the 14’s will be “old school”.

JMTCW...

Fair point, but the price delta between a high end PVS-14 and a com spec tube unit is maybe $1000-$1500. It's a decent chunk of change but as I view this as life saving equipment in a worst case scenario won't be pinching my pennies too much.

Everyone has different priorities. I have a surgeon buddy who would completely flip out about spending $4K on a NVG and think it was absurd but he thought nothing of putting $25K in aftermarket upgrades into the Subaru WRX he uses at the track.

If digital NV really takes over or some other tech comes along I imagine I could always find a use for a high end Gen-3 imager setup as a backup, give to kids, etc and that the higher end stuff would still be in more demand then the low end stuff but who the hell knows.

 

[voip-ninja]

buy once cry once pvs14 you say? gotta go full potato like I did.
Hyper-14 chassis with dep ether eye piece with 2750 fom l3 unfilmed tubes. did two of them with a KAC bridge.
I spent more per 14 than alot of people spend on RNVG binos.

This seems like a solid plan but not one in the cards for me at this juncture.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Personally, I think if you don’t need the top of the line stuff, you’re just blowing cash.

There’s always going to be something newer and better. For SHTF, the other side likely won’t be wearing NV, so an illuminator of some type will be a benefit, and pose no danger.

Besides, who’s to say digital NV isn’t about to make a leap into Gen 3 territory? Because when that happens, all the PVS-14’s are going take a hit. Digital NV and thermal will make fused full spectrum IR NV a reality, at a pretty low cost. And then the 14’s will be “old school”.

JMTCW...

Good post, but true Digi still has a long way to go unless we're fielding THESE...True fusion will be the ones to WATCH, but pricing may not be reachable for most, for a LONG time. I remember in the mid 2000's folks were saying the same thing. I love digital stuff and have tested so much gear over the years from the first "better than Gen 3 - SuperVision" AKA StupidVision to modern SWIR, Cooled Array thermal, Digi fused I linked to and a host of cheaper (hope stuff) and as much as I want the PVS-14 to go away with an exciting substitute for the masses...It won't happen in the next 10 years and if L3 keeps knocking out higher spec unfilmed tubes every year. Heck they say 2800-3000FOM this time next year will be average! I dunno but a good conversation...Now if I can just get my GPNVG Fused goggles here with augmented reality!

 

[MtnGhost]

Bought two new factory L3 14's because I knew that once I had one, I'd want the second. Someday, digital NV might be above and beyond, but this pair does it for me, and this pair could very well last me 15+ years if need be (so I'm not at all inclined to "upgrade").

Thermal on the other hand seems more like buying computers. The shit you pay top $ for today is going to be "outdated" a few years later. I can see flipping thermal perpetually, given that digital progresses a hell of a lot faster than analog, but despite depreciation- there's always going to be demand for that "outdated" gear.

 

[army_eod]

I will be calling TNVC for recommendations. I need to lay out my requirements and fill the need. I am a complete newb here. But I haz requirements.

 

[JWG]

The fun part is, they also make 24UA tubes as well. Those are typically reserved for SOCOM, but a couple of select dealers have been able to get them. Typical FOMs in the 2800+ range.

I don't understand 18,20,22,24um/ua. Maybe 18 tubes are better than 22 tubes, for example. Why do they sort them this way as "guaranteed minimum spec" vs. "priced by the tube", since they have to test all tubes ANYWAYS, to make sure they break min spec anyways, so...? Why?

 

[zinny]

I don't understand 18,20,22,24um/ua. Maybe 18 tubes are better than 22 tubes, for example. Why do they sort them this way as "guaranteed minimum spec" vs. "priced by the tube", since they have to test all tubes ANYWAYS, to make sure they break min spec anyways, so...? Why?

This has been ask by many people in the past, I've yet to hear an explanation.

There may be some kind of logistical reasoning involved, or its plain old "this is the (wrong) way"...

 

[JWG]

This has been ask by many people in the past, I've yet to hear an explanation.

There may be some kind of logistical reasoning involved, or its plain old "this is the (wrong) way"...

Yes, I would understand if the tubes weren't already individually tested for all those specs, and they were made in different manners that took more time/energy, etc. but considering they come off the line right after the other as I understand, and are all tested out individually, I am lost as to how there are even categories that offer "minimum spec" and cost-tiers. I'd think it would be priced per tube, or for a large/gov order, set minimum specs and then all the tubes that meet that goes in the order, and those far far above it get slotted for the more stringent order, etc. and both orders get bulk pricing based on minimum spec. I just do not "get it".

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I will be calling TNVC for recommendations. I need to lay out my requirements and fill the need. I am a complete newb here. But I haz requirements.

Feel free to PM me, I give my cell number out a lot and be glad to assist. Education is key and even if you don't decide to purchause from us, be glad to help get you the information you need. We train with this gear for a living and have an incredible staff with avid hunters, LE and former Special Operations folks. We also build all our TNV gear in-house, not just a reseller. We all here at TNVC enjoy educating when we can.

 

[DoubleHaul]

Even if digital does arrive (and I really hope it does for fusion), it's not going to touch the battery life of a 14 anytime soon. It's crazy how long those last on a single AA.

 

[voip-ninja]

I just wanted to provide an update.

After being strung along by someone who kept promising they would be able to get me the device of my choice for about two months I have decided I will be placing an order with TNVC this week or next... which is what I should have done in the first place.

Be very careful about pinning hopes on well recommended people who simply don't have access to inventory right now.

This error will cost me substantial dinero as TNVC has increased their prices for an L3 film-less setup in the time I've been waiting on a certain person to make good.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I just wanted to provide an update.

After being strung along by someone who kept promising they would be able to get me the device of my choice for about two months I have decided I will be placing an order with TNVC this week or next... which is what I should have done in the first place.

Be very careful about pinning hopes on well recommended people who simply don't have access to inventory right now.

This error will cost me substantial dinero as TNVC has increased their prices for an L3 film-less setup in the time I've been waiting on a certain person to make good.

Thanks you for the vote of confidence Sir. While tube pricing has increased and more in 2021, we are not raising any more pricing for our customers and will hold fast and will NOT gouge the customers during this unprecedented demand. Thank you again.