Gunsmithing Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

[Mattrmvpd]

I know there are many of you that have experience in machinery and do it for a living, so I am hoping that you can help some of us newbies out on getting some machines setup...

I am NOT a machinest... and have had NO training...

But.. IF I were to look at a LATHE to just play with what would be a size that would thread barrels... and true up actions?

I am NOT looking to run a business... or do work for anyone... I am only intersted in learning on my own stuff and just messing around.

I would be interested in intructional training... videos... etc... I am fairly easy at reading and applying or simply watching and duplicating..

I know that there are all types of sizes of Lathes out there... 8X12 etc.... what would be a size that would work and work well.

Keep in mind... that I DONT have a endless budget... And was walking around HARBOR FREIGHT and just saw some and it got me to thinking of this...

*Here is a LINK to something I was thinking of... I am limited on space and figured this "type" of setup would be most beneficial.

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-multipurpose-machine-with-micro-feed-44142.html


Thanks for all the help in advance as you all always help out.

Matt. (LEO SOUTH GA.)

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

All I can say is that it is hard to 'recommend' a machine to someone that has no experience in machining! Not saying it negatively but that unless you have run or at least been around and watched someone do so it is near impossible to explain what to look for and what not to buy. Kinda like explaining how to drive Nascar to someone who hasn't yet driven. Probably a bit extreme comparison but wanted to get my point across.

I would recommend finding a Votech class you can take on offtime to get a general idea on what it involves and whether you might want to go further. Cough up 4K for a good lathe and that much more for tooling only to find it tain't your cup of tea!

Oh, and you need a different shopping place than Harbor Freight. I bought a 'Precision' lathe from an HP that got into smithing for his retirement. He did 6 or 7 barrel jobs and sold me everything for about 1/2 price to 'get into' cabinet making as he didn't want to deal with ATF any longer. The lathe was really a POS. The Craftsman I have pictured in the other thread started by STR was more accurate before I rebuilt it than the new 'Precision' was from Harbor Freight! Fact!!! Sold the Harbor Freight junk when I had to quit work. Haven't missed it. Both present lathes were purchased used for about what I pd for the HF which was like 4yrs old then.

The link you have pictured is a $2k headache. Yes you can learn basic lathe/mill operation but they don't do either very well and surely nothing precise.

Trust me wanting to "do your own gun work" will probably be the most expensive hobby to have if you buy descent stuff and use it as much as most hobbiest. I have built 2 rifles in the last year, one for a cousin for a favor. When you have enough or cannot afford anymore than you have alot of dollars invested collecting dust.

Wanting to learn to machine etc can be a hobby, wanting to learn to machine only to work on your own guns can be expensive!!!lol

Just my opinions however and we know what opinions are worth!

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[STR]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

In advanced I am sorry if I offend anyone with this, but stay away from that for rifle work. If you are looking for new, other guys with experience should answer what's best. I operate a 13x40 Colchester made in England. It's built like a war ship, and was made in 1988. My other one is a South Bend Heavy Ten with a 4 1/2 ft bed. Really hard to beat for rifle work, but you really need to look to find one in great shape. Hope that helps a little. Check out the thread on home shops in the gunsmith section. Some of the guys have posted pics of newer machines. Best of luck.

 

[wadebrown]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I am not a machinist, but about a year ago I was at the same point you are now, so maybe you can learn from what I did.

My budget was not great and a buddy (who is a machinist, my adult supervision) and I wanted a lathe we could barrel through the headstock. In addition we wanted a full sized mill. By being very patient and watching Craigslist diligently we will be barreling my current build in a couple of weeks.

The lathe we bought was inoperable when we bought and I had to re-wire, the mechanics all in great shape and the mill we had to go about 200 away and bring it home. Both machines are much better than I thought we could get when we started this process.

Be patient look at auction sites, craigslist, acquaintances, etc looking for iron as you look ask questions to learn what you think you need and can afford. Others that know more than I will chime in to help you on what sizes and capacities you need. But a word of caution: "Put the Harbor Freight catalog down if you are looking for lathe or mill"

 

[dsink]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Like others have said, stay away from the combo machines.

I dont mean to bust your bubble but save your money and pay someone to rebarrel your rifles for you.

Buying the lathe itself is the cheap part. Buying all the "stuff" is what cost you. Your going to need depth mic's, dial calipers, small hole guages, large hole guages, turning, threading tooling, boring bars and so on and so on.

If your dead set on getting a lathe, you will want one that the hole in the head stock is large enough to pass a barrel thru. Something close to 2".

Check Craigs list and auctions. Only by the good stuff for your mearureing, buy the cheap china stuff and you will regret it.

 

[sixtwoeightyfour]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I personally would stay away from the mill/lathe machines. I have a friend that bought one of the grizzly 4003g gunsmithing lathes and for a chinese import its not that bad of a starter lathe. For a novice I would suggest buying a new import like grizzly or precision matthews you can run into problems with older machinery if you dont know what you are looking for. 12x36 is probably the best starter size most of them are short enough through the headstock to do barrel work in headstock.

 

[cooleyjc]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Check out the Practical machinist website. Handy place for information on different types of machine tools. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

 

[nobiman2]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I started with a Smithy that was a combo mill/lathe and it was a pain. Every time I needed a lathe it was setup for the mill and every time I needed a mill it was setup for lathe work. I spent more time in setting the thing up than I did working. I sold it and bought a separate lathe and mill and it was the thing the I have done for my small shop.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCC135</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check out the Practical machinist website. Handy place for information on different types of machine tools. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ </div></div>

just don't mention chinese machines on that site. the gunsmithing section there seems to be a bit more tolerant of them though.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

What is your budget including tooling? Do you have mics and indicators? I had a craftsman just like Dennis and a hardinge. The atlas/craftsman can do great work, but is very "springy" compared to my hardinge or pm....but I miss it. I would stay away from combo units.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

If you took a portion of your budget and put it towards training you would by many thousand dollars ahead.

Often local Trade Schools/Coummunity Colleges can offer a directed machining course to get you up to speed for your needs.

There is so many things to consider when making a lathe purchasing decision. At your current level of training and expirence its like showing up to a 1000 yard shoot with a handgun. (no offense)

Seriously, I took night classes in machining and learned a HUGE amount that helped me later at home. How much does a ruined barrel, action cost? Think of it as a investment

 

[Clark]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I am on my 4th lathe for amateur gunsmithing.

It is like getting married.

As a matter for fact, our opinion is not as important as your wife's opinion.

"Honey... I want to buy a big expensive machine. I will track metal shavings into the house. I could just buy an accurate rifle, but I think it would be fun."

 

[wadebrown]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

For anyone in the MN/Wi area here looks like an amazing deal on a South Bend Heavy 10
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/2968362973.html
little on the short side but has a 1-3/8" spindle bore. If this would have shown up when I was looking I would have called immediately. A lot of guns have been and still are being chambered on heavy 10's.

 

[Eppie]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

If I'm sick I go see a doctor, I don't apply to medical school.

I know nothing about machining and I plan on keeping it that way. However, if you must, I know American Gunsmithing Institute has video classes on machining and gunsmithing.

Good luck,

http://www2.americangunsmith.com/

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I have been weighing the same choices you are. I want a lathe now, but I dont have 2-4k to drop on one. I also dont want to get some cheap number, and end up pissed because it sux, or doesnt have the ability to do the work I want it to.

So, I made the decision, in 5 years I will be 10 from retirement. I am going to start getting the stuff together to get my own little shop going. Basic things, lathe, mill, and other shop tooling and equipment and start a little side buisness, and then go full time when I call it quits. I figure until then, I can pay someone to do the work. Not looking for a balls to the wall setup like Chad, but enough to put some extra cash in my pockets and have fun doing it.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

If you can find a deal on a little bench lathe, buy it....learn tool grinding, feeds, speeds, tailstock alignment....stuff like that. If you buy it right and don't tear it up its always worth owning. You can do quite a bit on one, but chambering in a steady is your only hope, and takes some serious skill to not crash......but you can learn some fundementals. It's not going to be ideal for anything....but it will sure not hurt your learning curve.

I bought a craftsman 12x36 with TONS and TONS of tooling for $500 and it was a cherry....keep your eyes peeled for a deal, know your limitations and have cash in your pocket....you will get there.

 

[Clark]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

The 12x36 Craftsman is ok for cutting threads and chambers on a barrel, in the steady rest.

You don't want to be making barrel vises on it from 2x2 steel.

 

[D Miller]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

As another newbie that jumped straight in to a lathe I say do it. I would buy the best equipment you can afford. THe Grizzly 4003g is the lathe that I learned on and currently use. Its defiantly no $18k Southbend and has a few little quirks i have discovered along the way but it works well for the DIY rifle smith/garage hack.


Here is JFC's and my learning curve... some of the stuff in the early sections makes me cringe now with a little more practice unde my belt. Neither of us had any formal machine or gunsmithing training and are only graduates of the University of You Tube. STRs videos were the most helpful resource along the way.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2683779

Good luck, It can be done.


**EDIT**
The lathe is the cheap part, the tooling gets expensive fast!

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

For the beginner and those wanting to learn the trade of building rifles I'd look no further than the Grizzly G4003G lathe. It's very easy to use, comes set up for building rifles, has upgraded spindle bearings and ready to go. Purchase some tooling and you'll be set.

If you grow tired of it, sell it for a very minimal loose if need be. Build two or more rifles with it for your self and you'd almost have your money back.

I had one and built several tack drivers with it before selling it for $1,500, I paid $2,900 for it and built several rifles for myself with it. In the end, I made money when I sold it

STR is correct, as per usual. The Colchester is built like a tank and a bad ass machine. I actually considered getting one and sometimes regret not doing so. It's more machine than you'll need at first though.

 

[waste_knot]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Is there in value in getting the G0709 which is the next step up. They both have the same spindle bore and same size 3 jaw and 4 jaw. I'm leaning toward the G4003G but I want to make sure it will do what I need.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Only $1,300 more than the G4003G but you get a coolant system, foot brake and a larger machine that’s set up for gunsmithing as well. My new machine came with a coolant system but I bypassed it and ran my existing chamber flush system and just re-plumbed the coolant nozzle with ball valves to use both.

Chances are, like with my machine, the coolant system tank was/is too small to use as a chamber flush system reservoir. Even if you bypassed the issued system the additional upgrades are better. The 14x40 is as large as I'd go though.

 

[ctressler]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

What are some good old american lathes to look for if a persons wants to true an action and do chamber work?

 

[waste_knot]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

The problem with standard lathes both American and import is the headstock bore. I notice the Southbend 10k only has a 0.8 spindle bore. These come up very often a auction and I've seen gunsmiths use them for chamber work with a steady rest. You really want to do benchrest quality from the spindle end.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

The other problem with most good old american lathes is that the headstock is so wide that it takes a 26" barrel or more to feel all the way through and into a spider. So trying to do anything on shorter barrels becomes a PITA.

I looked at this for quite a while and ended up with the smallest lathe I'd suggest for anyone considering gunsmithing: a grizzly 4003G (or one of it's clones, eg Shop Fox). So far I'm pretty happy with it, but it does still require TLC and attention to detail to get the best out of it (the tool post has 0.002" flex on heavy cuts like threading, I needed to build an X-axis lock, etc)

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only $1,300 more than the G4003G but you get a coolant system, foot brake and a larger machine that’s set up for gunsmithing as well. My new machine came with a coolant system but I bypassed it and ran my existing chamber flush system and just re-plumbed the coolant nozzle with ball valves to use both.
</div></div>

The 4003G is the 12x36 and doesn't include a coolant system or foot brake. That's the next bigger "gunsmith" lathe, IIRC.

 

[colchester]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: waste_knot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with standard lathes both American and import is the headstock bore. I notice the Southbend 10k only has a 0.8 spindle bore. These come up very often a auction and I've seen gunsmiths use them for chamber work with a steady rest. You really want to do benchrest quality from the spindle end.</div></div> Some of the 10" SB I have used had the larger hole 1 3/8 IIRC. Rockwell 11", Logan 14" and some of the 12" and 14" Clausings are well suited size wise for barrel work. The key to picking up any of these machines is the condition and knowing what to look for

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I would look for the heaviest lathe with a 40"+ bed, 1 3/8" or more spindle bore and not wore out. There are a few ways to get past long headstocks.....but you better be getting a deal. Keep in mind that you will most likely need to add a vfd and or phase converter.

I kick myself for not buying a 14x40 maxturn that I could have picked up for $1500. It must have weighed 5k lbs.....and last week there was a peach of an hlv-h that was only $3k on Craigslist here....it didn't last the day.

 

[USW.260]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Man Find a class. I thought I had an Idea of what to expect when I started the Machine Tool Tech class at my local College "not a trade school". Now a year later "Finals are Thursday" I'm feeling way more Confident. I can walk up to any machine Old or New -less CNC- and look at it a second or two and be running. Mills -Horizontal, Vertical "knee", servo driven all good, precision grinders wet or dry, Lathes small or large doesn't matter I can turn some metal. I've had to make a Machined Hammer and a working drill vice with most tolerances held to +.002 -.000. I've cut all threads "including acme" except metric. I actually understand and can use on a print GD&T, I can read prints Mectric or Standard and understand all Feature Control Frames. Anyways My point is I'm now skilled.....bad news is No lathes or mills are in my future....utill My Wife with are First child says its ok. Knowing what I know now if I would have bought a Lathe first with no know-how I would have got myself hurt or something worse. These machines are serious business and nothing to just play around with. Find a school...or hey you're in Georgia look up Robert Gradous...he will teach you everything you need to know for about the cost of a new Lathe or Mill..and you will have a rifle to show off. I'm really suprised at how many people on here just go buy a lathe like it nothing.... Oh and tooling and the Tools....Thats the expensive part!! Hell the tool box I have at school has over a 600 dollars worth of "trade tools" in it and it only just enough to keep me at a machine with out having to run to the tool room every 5 mins and they can all fit in my hands at one time. You won't need to much anymore but learn to grind your own HSS bits...its helpfull in a crunch when all other carbides or others have broke are become dull. Anyways good luck.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only $1,300 more than the G4003G but you get a coolant system, foot brake and a larger machine that’s set up for gunsmithing as well. My new machine came with a coolant system but I bypassed it and ran my existing chamber flush system and just re-plumbed the coolant nozzle with ball valves to use both.
</div></div>

The 4003G is the 12x36 and doesn't include a coolant system or foot brake. That's the next bigger "gunsmith" lathe, IIRC. </div></div>



What I was saying is that the G0709 (the lathe he mentioned) did have a coolant syatem and foot brake. I know the G4003G is a smaller machine and doesnt have the listed features, I used to own one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: waste_knot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there in value in getting the G0709 which is the next step up.</div></div>

 

[waste_knot]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

I hear ya on the Machine Tool class. I just don't have time. I took machine shop in High school if that counts, and it was pretty good with lathes and mills. There's a big shipyard and NASA in town so there are some good training programs around. I have a 9" Logan and it does everything a little 9" lathe will do, just not barrel work. The guy gave me the receipt with it from 1948. Bought it at Montgomery Wards in downtown Baltimore $206. Lots of options included 3 jaw, 4 jaw, steady and follow rest tons of tooling. I've added 5C collet chuck, quick change tool post.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Buying a Lathe as a newbie...

Read this thread and it will show what can be done with very little tooling and a micro lathe. You need to realize that les is packing 50 years of experience though.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/4711078031/p/4