bward: Gettin' down with the sickness?

JGorski

JGorski

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 25, 2011
2,991
14
63
Central Wis.
#1
I know you're sick & tired of me bragging up my 6mm well, lets call it "The Mongoose" today, but when you get groups like this with a new toy, I guy cant help himself. Conditions were humid, 83F, wind out of the SSE @9mph, shooting north, mirage up the arse and look at those numbers, though we cant really say that H4350 is temp insensitive, upwards of 84fps difference from last sat where the temps were 75F, today like i said, 83F. That was my old load of 41.9grs, sat. was an avg of 3144, today 3228fps. Now where's that smile? Please tell me where that 5th shot went, its there somewhere?
s6YrDJs.jpg
 
#4
What chrony? I have saw different chrony's show 3500 fps for my 6.5 creedmoor, doesn't make it so. I didn't claim my creedmoor was 3500. I have verified with 1k shooting that my h4350 has less then 40 fps change in 90* temp swings. Checked 100 yd zero then slung em out to 1k with hits made at proper dope. Nice group, four holes are pretty round,guess the fifth one is in there. Are u shooting from full on benchrest setup, or in the dirt off bipod? Reason i ask is cause i punched out a .839" 5 shot at 300 today with my home built savage/criterion/aics in 6 br. 105 hybrids at 2920 in a 26" barrel
 
#6
I hate to burst your bubble but THAT IS THE WAY ANY CUSTOM 6MM SHOULD SHOOT. Actually, that is not particularly impressive for one at 300, especially when shot from a benchrest
 
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#8
How about something different, turbo? No bi-pod yet, Ill get to that later on after our last 600yd Comp in Aug.
Ive got no bubble to burst, I know any custom 6mm or 6.5 or whatever caliber will shoot like this or better, hell, this rifle has shot better than this(.689"@300) but not in the mirage I had yesterday, probably why I was so proud of this group, I really love that vertical on this one, I usually dont shoot very well in the heat and mirage and some wind. I like this pro Chrono, though Im not sure why i got 84fps over the last 2 saturdays.
4JPelrZ.jpg

xs4CyY8.jpg
 
#9
19Scout77 said:
I hate to burst your bubble but THAT IS THE WAY ANY CUSTOM 6MM SHOULD SHOOT. Actually, that is not particularly impressive for one at 300, especially when shot from a benchrest
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Haha EXACTLY. I get called out on the internet by someone that is proud enough of that group at 300 yards out of a Benchrest setup to post it on here???? This is great.

In all seriousness Gorski, if you shoot against any sort of competition at all in Benchrest you will get your ass handed to you shooting a group like that at 300 yards. Off a bipod and bag it would be fine, but not Benchrest. I shoot with a guy that is in the Benchrest Hall of Fame by the way, so I have a decent reference point.
 
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#11
All this development and testing would be a hell of a lot easier to follow if it were contained to a single thread. But then it might not serve the apparently-desired purpose of poking others in the eye, huh?
 
#12
bward said:
Haha EXACTLY. I get called out on the internet by someone that is proud enough of that group at 300 yards out of a Benchrest setup to post it on here???? This is great.

In all seriousness Gorski, if you shoot against any sort of competition at all in Benchrest you will get your ass handed to you shooting a group like that at 300 yards. Off a bipod and bag it would be fine, but not Benchrest. I shoot with a guy that is in the Benchrest Hall of Fame by the way, so I have a decent reference point.
Click to expand...

B, I know what you're saying, Ill be going against 2 guys this sunday that have it all, the best of everything, calling these guys anal would be an understatement the way they do things, like I said, I was proud of this group because of the conditions I shot it in and the 7/16" vertical, throw out that flyer and there's a .558" group there. Not too shabby for this old pollack/german.
 
#15
No sab, this uber special case uses less powder then 243, gets a couple 100 fps better, and doubles barrel life.... what they claim. Apparently on the mystical planet that it was conceived on, you can have ur cake and eat it. I think speed=heat, heat destroys barrel life, thats what gets a 220swift&243 to " barrel burner" status, but not the 6 creed.lol
 
#17
Oh I see, Ill see if I can get one of these rifles that uses unicorn farts to push the bullets out so I can shoot 3,000 rounds of load development without worrying about barrel life
 
#18
pro chronos are pieces of shit in my experience. ive had a few. i wouldnt believe any numbers coming from that device. as to the h4350 i have not experienced velocity swings due to temp and i've shot crazy amounts in all kinds of temps. density altitude is where you're seeing differences i think.
 
#19
6brshooter said:
No sab, this uber special case uses less powder then 243, gets a couple 100 fps better, and doubles barrel life.... what they claim. Apparently on the mystical planet that it was conceived on, you can have ur cake and eat it. I think speed=heat, heat destroys barrel life, thats what gets a 220swift&243 to " barrel burner" status, but not the 6 creed.lol
Click to expand...

I never claimed any of this nonsense, the 6CM actually holds more(42grs in my load) of H4350 than the 243(37.5) and of course since the CM holds more powder there's more speed, Ill be the first one to let you know when my barrel is burnt out.
GeoVario LLC - Web Access
 
#21
Killswitch Engage said:
pro chronos are pieces of shit in my experience. ive had a few. i wouldnt believe any numbers coming from that device. as to the h4350 i have not experienced velocity swings due to temp and i've shot crazy amounts in all kinds of temps. density altitude is where you're seeing differences i think.
Click to expand...

You had to buy a few to realize it was a POS? fwiw, my speeds are inline with what Frank Green is getting from his new 6CM, not the speeds i got yesterday but from the past 2 weeks. Maybe since I had one diffuser in the sun and the other in the shade that had something to do with the higher velocities?
 
#22
KYS said:
6.5 SAUM @ 100 yards - 5 shot group

rm7ktw.jpg


6.5 SAUM @ 300 yards - 5 shot group

9t0dy0.jpg


All shots taken off a bipod with rear bag in the prone position. ;)
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Nice shootin' KYS, Ill take this as a challenge and im heading to the basement to mount my Harris now, not sure If Ill be able to get up after going prone but I can shoot prone with a bi-pod. LOL
You got a measurement on that group?
 
#23
KYS said:
6.5 SAUM @ 100 yards - 5 shot group

rm7ktw.jpg


6.5 SAUM @ 300 yards - 5 shot group

9t0dy0.jpg


All shots taken off a bipod with rear bag in the prone position. ;)
Click to expand...

Why do you keep doing this to me? I need mine done now! Have the barrel, action, dies, brass and bullets just waiting for the 6.5 SAUM Reamer. Anyone got one and want to barrel mine for me???
 
#24
JGorski said:
And you know I dont have a BR rifle, it's a tacticool rifle, no 1.5oz trigger, but a 11oz CG trigger and sure as hell no 6PPC, LOL
Click to expand...

An 11oz trigger on a tactical rifle is a ND waiting to happen. I would have to agree with Scout77, for 300 yards that is not an impressive group for bench rest. You are chasing speeds, not accuracy it sounds like.
 
#25
JGorski said:
Nice shootin' KYS, Ill take this as a challenge and im heading to the basement to mount my Harris now, not sure If Ill be able to get up after going prone but I can shoot prone with a bi-pod. LOL
You got a measurement on that group?
Click to expand...

Don't need a measurement to know that's a solid group. I could care less about measurements. As long as their is consistency shot to shot, I am a happy camper. Once you get data matching, just rock on. Stop chasing load development.
You will burn half that barrel out trying to get it just right.
 
#26
JGorski said:
You had to buy a few to realize it was a POS? fwiw, my speeds are inline with what Frank Green is getting from his new 6CM, not the speeds i got yesterday but from the past 2 weeks. Maybe since I had one diffuser in the sun and the other in the shade that had something to do with the higher velocities?
Click to expand...

Nope they kept sending new ones to try to get one that worked...
 
#27
KYS said:
Don't need a measurement to know that's a solid group. I could care less about measurements. As long as their is consistency shot to shot, I am a happy camper. Once you get data matching, just rock on. Stop chasing load development.
You will burn half that barrel out trying to get it just right.
Click to expand...

You're right, but Im not chasing loads anymore, Ive got my load, it's either 41.9 or 42grs H4350, accuracy all the way. Give a fuck less about speed, to a point of course, id be happy with 3K if thats what I got. So just under an inch, 300yds, prone, bipod, got it! Im off to bed, gnight.
 
#28
JGorski said:
I never claimed any of this nonsense, the 6CM actually holds more(42grs in my load) of H4350 than the 243(37.5) and of course since the CM holds more powder there's more speed, Ill be the first one to let you know when my barrel is burnt out.
GeoVario LLC - Web Access
Click to expand...

While you are picking an accurate chrono, look into a new scale. A .243 holds way more than 37.5 grains of h4350.
 
#29
Actually j u did, couple 3 months ago someone asked about which 6 mm. You said it burned less powder,got 3300 fps and had a barrel life +3000. Even argued in same thread that it was better, faster then 243,243ai,6 rem ai/gap. My 243's run 42-42.5 h4350, and sound like they are half empty. 105@3150, have gone as high as 44.0, no pressure signs and good accuracy. Never chronied that load, but decided 42.5 was better for accuracy and barrel life. U have a nice rifle, u should be proud but it has not reinvented the wheel. What is the goal of this rifle? It is too heavy&cumbersome with too light of a trigger for field use. If for BR, it should have been a 22 or 6 br or dasher with a jewel. As it sits it is giving up alot for BR use and compromises too much as a field rifle. I have a rifle with similar length and weight but with a 6oz trigger. Its a 6 br and shoots 1.75-2.5"@600, no record setter but did the work myself and can hold its own when i don't lead it astray.
 
#30
19Scout77 said:
While you are picking an accurate chrono, look into a new scale. A .243 holds way more than 37.5 grains of h4350.
Click to expand...
I know. I saw somewhere, some reloading manual showed 42grs 4350 for the 243, and then I see Hodgdon has 37.5grs, WTF? How do you know my chrono isnt accurate? Still think it was because I had one diffuser in the sun the other in the shade, Ill have to call those Pro Chrono guys I guess.
 
#31
6brshooter said:
Actually j u did, couple 3 months ago someone asked about which 6 mm. You said it burned less powder,got 3300 fps and had a barrel life +3000. Even argued in same thread that it was better, faster then 243,243ai,6 rem ai/gap. My 243's run 42-42.5 h4350, and sound like they are half empty. 105@3150, have gone as high as 44.0, no pressure signs and good accuracy. Never chronied that load, but decided 42.5 was better for accuracy and barrel life. U have a nice rifle, u should be proud but it has not reinvented the wheel. What is the goal of this rifle? It is too heavy&cumbersome with too light of a trigger for field use. If for BR, it should have been a 22 or 6 br or dasher with a jewel. As it sits it is giving up alot for BR use and compromises too much as a field rifle. I have a rifle with similar length and weight but with a 6oz trigger. Its a 6 br and shoots 1.75-2.5"@600, no record setter but did the work myself and can hold its own when i don't lead it astray.
Click to expand...

Never said I was sure I was getting 3300+ fps, was going by trajectory figures and at the last 600yd BR comp I only had to go up 3 clicks so again I thought I was up there in speed, get the chronograph, it tells me Im not getting the speed I thought I was, no biggie, Ill admit when Im wrong. Now how would I know how much barrel life there is in a 6 creed, ive got but 287 shots thru my barrel, more than likely I was passing on info from some other 6 Creed shooter that reported he got that many.
Had this rifle built for our local 600yd BR comps and hopefully F-class down in Lodi, it has no safety, the trigger could be lighter for BR but Im getting by with the 11oz it has, my next 6 Creed is being built as soon as Frank send a barrel to Chad, maybe this week, Frank? That next rifle has a 6oz Jewell and when it was a 6mmREM shot a 3.5" group at 600 last year, neck expansion was too much so Im having it made into a 6 Creed.
Im going to try like hell to match what your 6BR can do at 600yds this Sunday, you think the rifle will do it? Wish me luck, Ill need it.
 
#32
I would try 41.955 grains H4350 and confirm with 5 shot groups at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, and 1015.5 just in case. I'm sure that's the Mongoose's sweet spot. If the ES/SD is more than 1.25fps, i'd ditch the load though.
 
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#36
xXlojackXx said:
I wouldn't be bragging about that 300 yard group Gorski. Especially out of a C Dixon rifle, it is capable of much better.
Click to expand...
Oh I know, you just have to throw out those flyers and we're talkin' some mighty fine small groups, that would be anything 1/4moa or less, got a handfull of them with this rifle. So a .558" 4 shot group isnt brag material? How bout a .402" 4 shot group? Both had the flyer sitting an inch away!! Goddamn flyers!! One of these days Ill get all 5 shots in there, or maybe this sunday Ill do something "special" @600, stay tuned. So lojack, what would be bragging material for a tacticool rifle at 300yds from a novice like me?
 
#37
6brshooter said:
J, i would do a 6 br or dasher on the next build. Set up as a true 600 br/f class comp rifle. Good luck at the match
Click to expand...

I was told the same thing more or less from a guy I compete with, he's got a 6BRX and his other brother Daryl does too. Again, full on BR rigs, all the toys the "pros" use, yada, yada. Didnt want that route, Ive wanted a tactical rifle for the longest time, now if I can beat them with it remains to be seen. Just need to carry that .186moa from these 4 shots out to 600 and its mine I say, all mine!! BAHAHAHAHA !!!!! Thanks for the best wishes this weekend.
 
#38
JGorski said:
Oh I know, you just have to throw out those flyers and we're talkin' some mighty fine small groups, that would be anything 1/4moa or less, got a handfull of them with this rifle. So a .558" 4 shot group isnt brag material? How bout a .402" 4 shot group? Both had the flyer sitting an inch away!! Goddamn flyers!! One of these days Ill get all 5 shots in there, or maybe this sunday Ill do something "special" @600, stay tuned. So lojack, what would be bragging material for a tacticool rifle at 300yds from a novice like me?
Click to expand...


I just wouldn't be bragging, as a novice. We all know you have a fine rifle most would love to have. But if I was posting that group, as a novice, I'd be asking for any advice on how to shrink the group.
 
#39
Watch the flags for any change, wind has a pattern. Before the relays start watch what the flags do, learn the pattern and timing. Is and when is the switch up or let up, read mirage. Get ur rds lined up and when wind conditions "recycle" get ur rds off fast in the same condition. I am a runner when i shoot, when conditions are right i will send 5 rds out in 20 sec on a dual port single shot. If for some reason a shot goes where it is not supposed to, do not readjust ur hold otherwise u will double ur group size. Now if there was a wind change up that u missed for that errant shot by all means hold for it.
 
#40
It's like your taking a knife to a gunfight. Can a regular rifle as you have win over a purpose built BR rifle on any given day. I suppose it's possible but very very unlikely it will ever happen.

That's a nice group for your rifle but aggregates win BR matches not single groups. If you cant get those tightened up a bit each with each and every group you shoot you are just spinning your wheels in BR. There is a reason why the rifles used in BR are the way they are but in the end reading the conditions correctly wins matches especially at distance.
 
#41
el gordo2 said:
It's like your taking a knife to a gunfight. Can a regular rifle as you have win over a purpose built BR rifle on any given day. I suppose it's possible but very very unlikely it will ever happen.

That's a nice group for your rifle but aggregates win BR matches not single groups. If you cant get those tightened up a bit each with each and every group you shoot you are just spinning your wheels in BR. There is a reason why the rifles used in BR are the way they are but in the end reading the conditions correctly wins matches especially at distance.
Click to expand...

In the case of our local match, it's the smallest group of day that wins, then you have your class B & A winners, class B is smallest that doesnt go under 3", Class A best under 3". I believe in my heart if I can read the wind correctly this rifle will shoot a very good agg. Do you guys really think I should be trying to shrink those 4 shots in this group? Of course it can be done, but a .186moa, and the other 4 shot group I shot 2 weeks ago was a .134moa, again, throw that flyer out and those groups ROCK for a tac. rifle. 6brshooter, Ill watch the wind as you suggested, last time I didnt peek over at the trees on our left, they were blowing all the time it seemed, grass in front of my bench, calm as can be.
 
#44
JGorski said:
In the case of our local match, it's the smallest group of day that wins, then you have your class B & A winners, class B is smallest that doesnt go under 3", Class A best under 3". I believe in my heart if I can read the wind correctly this rifle will shoot a very good agg. Do you guys really think I should be trying to shrink those 4 shots in this group? Of course it can be done, but a .186moa, and the other 4 shot group I shot 2 weeks ago was a .134moa, again, throw that flyer out and those groups ROCK for a tac. rifle. 6brshooter, Ill watch the wind as you suggested, last time I didnt peek over at the trees on our left, they were blowing all the time it seemed, grass in front of my bench, calm as can be.
Click to expand...

It's not about shrinking those four shots. You can't shoot several shots then pick a few that are close together. Your group includes flyers, no matter how many there are, or how far off they are. Try getting the match officials to just use certain shots on your target.
 
#46
JGorski said:
Really? I had no idea, :)
Click to expand...

Lol, it's easy to bust on other people, because my fliers are so far off from my group that no one would ever think they are flyers! That's just how I roll.well that, or I shoot one shot groups, and they are always pretty dang tight. Nice rifle by the way. I had a 420 grain chunk of grenade casing imbed itself in the bone between my bicep and tricep. I tell everyone that I used to be the best shot in the regiment, until the nerve damage, but in reality it doesn't affect my shooting much at all, but everyone believes it, so they don't knock my groups/patterns. It does cause temporary loss of dexterity sometimes though, which has made me drop several freshly opened beers, a far worse atrocity than poor shooting.
 
#47
Delta4-3 said:
Lol, it's easy to bust on other people, because my fliers are so far off from my group that no one would ever think they are flyers! That's just how I roll.well that, or I shoot one shot groups, and they are always pretty dang tight. Nice rifle by the way. I had a 420 grain chunk of grenade casing imbed itself in the bone between my bicep and tricep. I tell everyone that I used to be the best shot in the regiment, until the nerve damage, but in reality it doesn't affect my shooting much at all, but everyone believes it, so they don't knock my groups/patterns. It does cause temporary loss of dexterity sometimes though, which has made me drop several freshly opened beers, a far worse atrocity than poor shooting.
Click to expand...

This is from my last 600yd BR comp Jun 9th, see what I mean about flyers, but the vertical is about an inch, total size of the group is 4.9", shot a similar group today but the flyer didnt make the group larger, that one went 4", and the best of my shooting for the day.
xINBzt9.jpg
 
#49
bward said:
So you're saying there was a limited amount sickness today...
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Indeed, the 2 guys with what I call "race guns" took it all, 1.669" was the best, you know, fullblown BR rigs against F-class, Tactical, varmint & deer rifles. Like the guy who brings a knife to a gunfight, that was me. But the vertical in my 2nd group was so nice, less than a 1/2", but you know that short verticals dont win matches.
 
#50
dayone006.jpg


I'll brag a little.....grin. Swagged a 2 mil holdoff on the first round.....the other two were easy.

A little advice; shoot steel if you want to learn how to shoot in the wind.
 
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