Advanced Marksmanship Calls and Strikes

[Tburkes]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Sterling, will you be coming to the Cup? If you are I'd like to ask to be placed on the same shooters relay as you are so I can pick your brain to see where I can improve my field shooting skills.

Usually at these matches there are several stages on the square range where you ought to just rack up the points. I'd really like to get some pointers from you to help me out since I always seem to screw the pooch on this type of stuff.

I'll be there for the trainup so it would be great if you could come down for that part too.

 

[.308 PLT]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Great Thread!!!!!.... Good Info.... Thanks Frank!!

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

While men may not agree on something I have no doubt Sterling could teach many a great deal. He did not get the titles below by being less than a great shooter
NRA LR High Master
CMP-USAMU MRI
NRA HP Master
Distinguished Rifleman #1769


Sterling I for one would honor chance to shoot with you, but I am stricktly a NRA Range guy these days

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Plotting calls and strikes is good for the NRA HP crowd because unlike us scope folks, they rarely acutally "zero" their sights.

They zero and then will check their data for how many clicks to use for elevation and windage at different distances, positions, lighting and ranges (actual different shooting facilities as opposed to distances). I have yet to see a service rifle shooter actually rezero his rear sight when he gets to a different range than his home range. Maybe for a large long event like Perry, but not for a regular XTC match.

I have seen hundreds of guys rezero their turrets on their scopes if they are afforded the opportunity to zero in a new AO. I do it every chance I get.....

Magnified optics with a 100yd zero take a lot of conditional factors out of the equation when compared to a 200yd aperature sight zero, and I can adjust known dope for conditions using DA. When I miss its because I broke the trigger wrong, or misjudged the wind, not that the light is different in my sights or that my POI is different becasue I'm shootign supprt side and zeroed strong side (for example).

Apples are apples and oranges are oranges......we need to quit getting our knickers twisted.

I respect SS's skill and dogma regarding fundamentals, but it NRA HP does not translate straight across to practical precision rifle shooting no matter how hard you push it.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Plotting calls and strikes is good for the NRA HP crowd because unlike us scope folks, they rarely acutally "zero" their sights.

They zero and then will check their data for how many clicks to use for elevation and windage at different distances, positions, lighting and ranges (actual different shooting facilities as opposed to distances). I have yet to see a service rifle shooter actually rezero his rear sight when he gets to a different range than his home range. Maybe for a large long event like Perry, but not for a regular XTC match.

I have seen hundreds of guys rezero their turrets on their scopes if they are afforded the opportunity to zero in a new AO. I do it every chance I get.....

Magnified optics with a 100yd zero take a lot of conditional factors out of the equation when compared to a 200yd aperature sight zero, and I can adjust known dope for conditions using DA. When I miss its because I broke the trigger wrong, or misjudged the wind, not that the light is different in my sights or that my POI is different becasue I'm shootign supprt side and zeroed strong side (for example).

Apples are apples and oranges are oranges......we need to quit getting our knickers twisted.

I respect SS's skill and dogma regarding fundamentals, but it NRA HP does not translate straight across to practical precision rifle shooting no matter how hard you push it. [/quote

If you think NRA type shooting does not "Translate" to practical shooting you may reconsider. Tell me shooting 308 off bipod 600-1200 yards does not translate to better shooting skills for a sniper and I will say you never where a sniper. Say reading wind on Palma Range, or any/any long range match does not make you a better sniper and I will bet you have never been a sniper. Tell me jumping into either a seated slung or prone sling shooting position and doing rapid fire does not make you a better field shooter and I will say I bet you are not near as good a shooter as you think. All these are cross training and build a better shooter. Funny last Hide Bash had a winner whos back ground was Small Bore NRA. It translated right into dominating many matches when it comes to shooting from positions other than prone bipod.

The discussion was about if shooters need to plot or not.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

And my comments are related to the type of data keeping necessary for the differnt applications, not that marksmanship fundamentals do not translate from discipline to discipline.

Just another example of folks getting their knickers in a twist instead of actually considering what is being discussed. Noone's knocking your F-Class or Palma Mike. And I got to watch Francis win his first match he entered in NorCal '09 firsthand.

I'm not sure which has personally helped my practical precision shooting more-my XTC service rifle experience or rifle silhouette, and I'm the first to credit their influence.

That has nothing to do with what data I record, since I record different data for each discipline, hence the apples and oranges comment.

Not trying to pee on anyone's favorite flavor of Wheaties.....

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Calls and Strikes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plotting calls and strikes is good for the NRA HP crowd because unlike us scope folks, they rarely acutally "zero" their sights.

They zero and then will check their data for how many clicks to use for elevation and windage at different distances, positions, lighting and ranges (actual different shooting facilities as opposed to distances). I have yet to see a service rifle shooter actually rezero his rear sight when he gets to a different range than his home range. Maybe for a large long event like Perry, but not for a regular XTC match.

I have seen hundreds of guys rezero their turrets on their scopes if they are afforded the opportunity to zero in a new AO. I do it every chance I get.....</div></div>

Haven't spent much time around HP shooters have you? Don't have to re-zero if you have a good score/data book.

Of course they zero their rifles. Of course the write down their zeros (and calls). Of course differant ranges are differant. That's why they use score (data) books.

When shooting for the guard I shot all over this country. Hawaii, 29 Palms, Ft Ord, Fort Rich, Ft Wainwright, Benning School for Boys, Camp Robinsson, Ft Lewis,.........I could go on and on. It may not seem like I "zero" my rifle when I get there, but what you don't see in me setting in the motel room studying the "data sheets" from the last time I shot at this range. When I'm called to the range, when the targets come up I can take a gander through the spotting scope, make corrections and let her rip.

I have zero's for M118, M118LR, M852, Mexican Match with 168s * 180 SMKS and my handloads.

I've attended the USAMU Sniper School and Taught sniper schools for the Guard, Army, and LE.

IT AIN'T THAT MUCH DIFFERANT.

Yeap I write down "calls and strikes". Learned a long time ago that the shortest pencil is longer then the longest memory.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

That was my point actually regarding NRA HP shooters. I understand that my data book tells me my zero differences in relation to my sight's "zero" setting for when I would shoot at different facilities.

The "poring over data" comes much from the physical fact that iron sights (aperture or diopter) and hard holding have many factors that influence POA/POI tha are eliminated with a magnified optic that is properly set to be parallax free.

My only point is that data kept is different, because of differing platforms.

Jeez, what is it that makes the coat and sling crowd so fricking obstinate?!?!?

Maybe you use the same data book for your Across the Course Highpower as you do for your scoped boltgun that you shoot UKD and practical steel matches with, but I can tell you I sure as heck don't.

Sorry if I'm not clear or if (as usual) the HP crowd can't look at anything outside what they want to see, I'm done. I should have known better that to try to even share my experience....

No wonder XTC is in a waning mode....

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Sober, maybe its your written work that is lacking? I responded to your words not brain waves projected over net.

As to High Power Crowd, well Kraig has spent far more time behind a sniper rifle for real than you have dreamed of it while drinking cups of coffee. Sterling has taught more snipers than you have read stories about them. Me just a cop sniper but may have spent a few more days behind a sniper rifle than you. We all have different opinions but for you to discount because these guys spend much of there time behind comp rifles is weak.

Frank and Jacob said why they teach the way they do. Thiers is based on teaching urban/field techniques. They do it one way and it works for them.

Sterling does it another way and it works for him.

I am in middle of the two camps doing some of each. Thats based on what I have done.


Glad you got to see Francis win his first match, in 2009, I was away in Iraq. You would probably be suprized to find out how hard it is in war zone to check zero every time you take a chooper ride

No reason to bash anyone. Its just opinions

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sober, maybe its your written work that is lacking? I responded to your words not brain waves projected over net.

As to High Power Crowd, well Kraig has spent far more time behind a sniper rifle for real than you have dreamed of it while drinking cups of coffee. Sterling has taught more snipers than you have read stories about them. Me just a cop sniper but may have spent a few more days behind a sniper rifle than you. We all have different opinions but for you to discount because these guys spend much of there time behind comp rifles is weak.

Frank and Jacob said why they teach the way they do. Thiers is based on teaching urban/field techniques. They do it one way and it works for them.

Sterling does it another way and it works for him.

</div></div>

If you look at black part of my typing you will find that I never put forth what you responded to.

I never bashed anyone, you really need to learn to read.

I respect the shit out of Sterling Shooter and his skills, and likewise with Kraig.
My comments that the coat and sling crowd limit their thinking to their box is pretty much evidenced by the way this whole thread went (prior to my comments of this morning).


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am in middle of the two camps doing some of each. Thats based on what I have done.


Glad you got to see Francis win his first match, in 2009, I was away in Iraq. You would probably be suprized to find out how hard it is in war zone to check zero every time you take a chooper ride
For you to bash anyone is just plain over your head. </div></div>


Again, do you plot the same data for RO or ASC as you do for your Palma gun? I highly doubt it, because it is a completely different application.

And the little bit about Iraq and missing Francis winning in 09 shows you need some coffee or you need to pull you head out of your ass, either that or you are flat our full of shit, because YOU WERE AT NORCAL TBRC '09, you pulled my targets.

Good luck with the F-Class Mike, and you can shove the demeaning inferences about my shooting up your ass.
Stay away from the volleyball courts.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Kraig, Sterling, I apologize if my comments are disrespectful in any manner to either of you individually.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

I was at that match but did not know that is one you where speaking of. I went to Iraq later in year 2009.

The volleyball court thing, yet once again. That was 2002/2003 and Afghanistan. Where were you? Nothing like a numbnuts who repeats something he heard.

So I was hurt in a war zone playing volley ball, in 2003? I was there. Where were you?

Matter o fact what is your claim to fame?

By the way fuck off

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

And Mike, find me anywhere where I have EVER claimed to be a sniper. Once again, learn to read the words I typed. If you had before you ran off at the keyboard this little misunderstanding would have never happened.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

I never said you claimed to be a sniper but you shoot a couple of matches and claim to have the answers. Poke at guys who shoot for a living. You are out of your lane. You have an answer to every question. How about how you have served your country? You want to attack my service why not start with my just being a cop for 25 years? That was as lame as volleyball and being just a contractor? I have not done much in the wars but I have done what the Government has allowed me to do.
Go put your MultiCam on write something real bad to me. Get some second hand info and help from peanut gallery while your at it

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said you claimed to be a sniper but you shoot a couple of matches and claim to have the answers. Poke at guys who shoot for a living. You are out of your lane. You have an answer to every question. How about how you have served your country? You want to attack my service why not start with my just being a cop for 25 years? That was as lame as volleyball and being just a contractor? Go put you MultiCam on write something real bad to me. Get some second hand info and help from peanut gallery while your at it </div></div>

I was a useless drunk for most of the years I would have been effective in service to my country, and I don't hide it.
I have personally helped probably hundreds of similarly fucked up citizens get their shit together to make up for it since, and was the best employee and husband I could be. Partied way to much to be POST certified once I gained respect for LE and what MOST of them stand for.
I never claim LE or mil service, but that makes me no less a citizen, an does not invalidate any experience I do have.

Where did I poke at guys that shoot for a living? I noted that NRA HP and field precision data collection is in practice different. You took it way different than what the words say.

Your level of defensiveness and lack of comprehension are unbecoming, especially as a sworn peace officer.

I poked at you because you're being an asshole, your service doesn't erase or excuse that.

Again if you would have read what was written, not what you imagined we could have been spared this unpleasant exchange.

You come across as a real miserable person, I hope you get the help you need with that.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Calls and Strikes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The "poring over data" comes much from the physical fact that iron sights (aperture or diopter) and hard holding have many factors that influence POA/POI tha are eliminated with a magnified optic that is properly set to be parallax free.



</div></div>

This statement is fascinating. What I mean by that is I see shooters who, getting into LR, often perceive that magnification will help them get the job done. They, without any iron sight experience, do not clearly understand that, although a scope may help one see better, it is not a substitute for marksmanship training. For these folks the scope is a distraction to good shooting. Falsely confident, through magnification and a steady rest, the neophyte shooter is deceived by the scope into thinking he actually knows where the barrel is pointed when the only thing he knows for sure is a reticle/target relationship. This untrained shooter may, unfortunately, shoot a gazillion rounds down range and yet not make any advancement, since marksmanship has not been considered by this shooter to be a problem.

Beginning with irons, a new shooter will likely have miserable results initially and have no delusions about knowing anything about good shooting; and, from such a humble state will be more receptive to learning. BTW, even when the scope is parallax free, if there is such a thing, the scope does not eliminate any aspect of what is required for a good hit, however, the scope can hide a recognition for things important, beginning with sight alignment. With irons, perfect alignment is not only known to be important, it is easy see when not perfected. This is not so easy with a scope, either to understand when alignment has been perfected or a when there is a need for it to be perfected.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Sterling, that was a comment to the ability of an experienced iron sight shooter to cypher what sight settings they need for differnt light and position changes.
Parallax free optics combined with application of a consistent fundamental shooting position and technique eliminates some of the effects that postion and lighting have on aperture sights.................of hell, I give up.

You're right, NRA HP iron sight shooting is the only thing that matters.

Again to everyone else, sorry for the digression.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Sober, I applaud you for the service you have done for our country. That is a great service and I mean that.

We wont agree on this subject and written work may be a big part of it.

I will glady discuss this in civil terms, if we meet in person again.

Wont be at this years NCPRC Match as having two little surgeries on back next month

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Calls and Strikes

Stay safe and thank you for your service.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Calls and Strikes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling, that was a comment to the ability of an experienced iron sight shooter to cypher what sight settings they need for differnt light and position changes.
Parallax free optics combined with application of a consistent fundamental shooting position and technique eliminates some of the effects that postion and lighting have on aperture sights.................of hell, I give up.

You're right, NRA HP iron sight shooting is the only thing that matters.

Again to everyone else, sorry for the digression.

</div></div>

I think I know what you meant, but your statement made me think about the matter as a whole, and, from my perspective, seeing folks on the public range every week, who for one reason or another cannot seem to get the job done with any sort of sight, it was thrust for my comment.

Yes, the scope can make moot the optical illusions which can make the 6 o'clock holders have a need to memorize things like lights up sights up. No argument from me.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Calls and Strikes

In the end it is all about what works for you and no one should ever discount another way as not worth a try.

 

[sinister]

Re: Calls and Strikes

The comments reference data hold equal weight and define the same object for both irons and glass, field or KD.

As Cory and Kraig both discussed earlier, wherever the hell you take your rifle out of the case (Mazar-e-Sharif to Basra to Benghazi to Camp Perry -- wherever) the shooter SHOULD shoot at least one round or group at his new location (if possible) to verify any changes to his last previous zero, place, and conditions, then go by his data book/drop cards/whiz wheel/density altitude scale- aide memoire/PDA, or memory. That may also include slipping a turret or zero-stop where bottom is 100 for where you are.

For an iron-sight shooter at a no-sighters match like the President's Match or National Trophy Individual EVERY shot counts for score -- no freebies, no sighters, no do-overs, all points count.

For the guy in combat the equivalent is also the first round -- but may also bring immediate counter-battery fire or a whole lot of pissed-off knuckleheads headed for a two- to six-man Hunter-Killer or Small Kill Team. No freebies, no do-overs, every shot counts -- but the consequences are different.

A data check is a data check, period.

The difference for the iron-sighter (M16 or M14) is, "Hmm. Center-X is at 9 clicks up here, today, instead of 7 like last week at Quantico." For the scoped shooter it might be, "Hmm. 100 meters here is 100 plus (or minus) .1 or .2 (or slip the scale/turret to even Zero). Applies the same if he shows up to a big-money sniper rifle match and nobody is allowed a shot before the match begins -- first cold shot is game-on for total score aggregate and a Ford truck (or whatever booty or prize they're offering).

As for windage changes, as pointed out that's a crap shoot for the day and conditions. Unless it is from a fixed position or guard post (where you've shot a bunch from before in different winds) you make your call on-sight -- no different than a leg match. All shots are for the marbles. Use a Kestrel. Best guess on wind call wins.

Best guess in combat kills first.