Cam over or free float? Redding Type S full length sizing die

[TBass]

I am getting ready to setup a Redding Type S full length sizing die for a 300PRC. I do have (and will be using if necessary) the competition shell holders for the 300 PRC.

My question is… is it ideal to setup the die so that it free floats a bit?... or is best to setup the die so that there is a slight amount of cam over?

I have watched multiple vidoes, I have read the instructions that came with the Redding dies, and looked at multiple forums & it seems split as to whether to free float or have a slight amount of cam over on the sizing die.

 

[Ruff 364]

I am getting ready to setup a Redding Type S full length sizing die for a 300PRC. I do have (and will be using if necessary) the competition shell holders for the 300 PRC.

My question is… is it ideal to setup the die so that it free floats a bit?... or is best to setup the die so that there is a slight amount of cam over?

I have watched multiple vidoes, I have read the instructions that came with the Redding dies, and looked at multiple forums & it seems split as to whether to free float or have a slight amount of cam over on the sizing die.

Cam over.

 

[TBass]

Thank you - that was the direction that I was leaning... because:
1) I figure that a little cam over will cause the die to be concentric with the ram on the press (assuming I tighten the die down while the press is cammed over)
2) Once the die is set I will be using the comptition shellholders to adjust the shoulder bump... and not adjusting the shoulder bump by turning the die.

Thank you for confirm.

 

[Baron23]

I am getting ready to setup a Redding Type S full length sizing die for a 300PRC. I do have (and will be using if necessary) the competition shell holders for the 300 PRC.

My question is… is it ideal to setup the die so that it free floats a bit?... or is best to setup the die so that there is a slight amount of cam over?

I have watched multiple vidoes, I have read the instructions that came with the Redding dies, and looked at multiple forums & it seems split as to whether to free float or have a slight amount of cam over on the sizing die.

I rather like Panhandle Precision's vids...straightforward and clear. In this one, at 8:40 in, he's setting the die up PER REDDING INSTRUCTIONS (which they don't seem to have online that I can find...FFS). He reads them out loud and says to screw the die in until it touches the shell holder...then back out 1/4 of a turn.

 

[TBass]

Baron23... and that's my conudrum. Mulitple sources suggest mulitple ways of setting up the die.

The reason why I am leaning twords setting it up w/ a slight camover is because I do have the competition dies to set the shoulder bump and don't need to rely on moving the die to adjust the bump.

 

[Baron23]

Baron23... and that's my conudrum. Mulitple sources suggest mulitple ways of setting up the die.

The reason why I am leaning twords setting it up w/ a slight camover is because I do have the competition dies to set the shoulder bump and don't need to rely on moving the die to adjust the bump.

So you want to use the type S for neck sizing only and use the regular full body sizing die to...well, bump the shoulder and size the body?

And I certainly can believe you found conflicting info...that's not all that rare, right? haha I just noticed that he read the actual instructions so I thought I'd pass that along.

Best of luck.

 

[TBass]

Sorry for any confusion. I am using the Redding Type S full length bushing die to both resize the brass and adjust the neck tension.

I am just trying to determine how far I should screw the die into the press. Do I screw it in until there is some cam over... or do I setup up so it does not touch the shell holder.

As you clearly noted in the video posted above... it shows that you back the die off to where it does not touch the shell holder.

If you watch the following video at rought the 2:45 mark... this guy runs his die with a bit of cam over.

My gut is telling me that if I am not using the competition shell holders that I use the method that Sam from Panhandle Precision recommends. And that if I use the competition shellholder I use the method presented in the video below.

As I type through this I feel like I have kind of come up with the intial plan of attack.

 

[spife7980]

Set it up so that a fired case comes out of it .002 shorter on the shoulder set back with your comparator.

 

[DAMNKID]

Adjust your die to your desired shoulder setback “bump” if setting back ~.002” The only way your going to find out what works best for you is to try both ways. I don’t use comp shell holders so no cam over for me and I have no problem with shoulder setback consistency using my Redding type s dies

 

[Baron23]

f you watch the following video at rought the 2:45 mark... this guy runs his die with a bit of cam over.

But this guy is not Redding whose instructions were read verbatim in the vid I posted. To the shell holder and then back 1/4 turn.

What problem are you trying to solve...and if you don't have a problem...perhaps haven't yet used the die....why in the world would you listen to anyone but the manufacturer? If you set your die up as Redding says to, are you not getting correct sizing...correct shoulder bump, neck OD, body OD?

Sorry, mate....but I'm just not getting why you are flailing at this.

 

[Taylorbok]

set the die so it bumps .002" how you get there is entirely up to you. If it were me I would cam over with the required shell holder.

 

[TBass]

Baron23… I am not failing at this. I understand the directions as stated in the video when using the non-competition shell holders. That being said - I will be using competition shell holders.

After getting off the phone with technical support - the official answer is when using the competition shell holders it is best to set the dies up with a slight amount of cam over.

 

[CK1.0]

Bump the shoulder back ~2 thou and that's it.

"Cam-over" is a pretty misunderstood (and often misused) term, and seems to mean different things to different people... sure, a few presses out there utilize cam-over in how they operate, but most don't.

If your press doesn't do anything differently to the cases by camming it over than it does at the end of its stroke (a few only reach full extension when they cam-over), then chances are the only thing you're doing is stressing the shit out of your press linkage and flexing the press. Incredible force can be generated using a lever (press handle), enough to bend aluminum and even cast iron, that is, if it doesn't crack it and/or break it first. A lot of idiots are flexing the shit out of their shit and don't even know it!

You hear guys say that they feel like the cam-over means they're sizing the same exact amount every time. Therefore their cases come out more uniform... but in reality, many of them are just introducing deflection after the hard stop, which is actually pretty inconsistent and random.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Set the die for your desired shoulder bump.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Baron23… I am not failing at this. I understand the directions as stated in the video when using the non-competition shell holders. That being said - I will be using competition shell holders.

After getting off the phone with technical support - the official answer is when using the competition shell holders it is best to set the dies up with a slight amount of cam over.

Still setup the die for your desired shoulder bump. Whether that's cammed or not will be dictated by your shoulder movement.

 

[supercorndogs]

Redding comp shell holders are made so you can cam-over on the shell holder while achieving proper shoulder bump. This helps eliminate press flex as an inconsistency in sizing.

The instructions to screw it to the shell plate than back off 1/4 turn, are instructions for a starting point in die adjustment. Its just a generic starting point where you probably wont over bump your shoulders, or take 50 tries adjusting before you even start sizing the body.

Most of the time, with regular shell holders you will have too much bump if cam over on the shell holder. I try to set up chambers so a fully sized piece of brass {cam over on the shell plate} is .002-.004 smaller than the chamber. Then I can make my die adjustments with a little harder or softer cam over.

If the shell holders didn't come with instructions. You are supposed to size a fired case with the shortest shell holder. You then measure the case vs fired to see which oversized shell holder will give you the proper the bump. You are meant to cam over on them, and most presses will cam over.

As mentioned earlier cam over makes a lot of pressure. You shouldn't need to hang off the handle like a jungle gym to make cam over, but due to things flexing a soft cam over and hard cam over will size the case a little different.{I.E more sing or less sizing}

 

[918v]

I set up my dies beyond cam over. That way the press stops on the shell holder instead of on whatever the press is designed to stop on. That way I get a better feel of the shoulder bumping movement. Otherwise that feel is lost in the leverage of the press. Less stress on the linkage pins as well.

 

[Baron23]

Baron23… I am not failing at this. I understand the directions as stated in the video when using the non-competition shell holders. That being said - I will be using competition shell holders.

After getting off the phone with technical support - the official answer is when using the competition shell holders it is best to set the dies up with a slight amount of cam over.

My apologies, mate....I clearly shined my ass and showed the limits of my knowledge.

Carry on.

 

[marchboom]

Maybe I'm missing something here but once the shell holder and die touch the case will not be pushed into the die any more. So why stress the press with cam over? Having the shell holder just touching the die should be sufficient, IMO.

 

[918v]

Maybe I'm missing something here but once the shell holder and die touch the case will not be pushed into the die any more. So why stress the press with cam over? Having the shell holder just touching the die should be sufficient, IMO.

You but it’s not in many cases because the press frame flexes away from the shell holder under load from the case being sized. So you set it to cam over to compensate.

 

[marchboom]

You but it’s not in many cases because the press frame flexes away from the shell holder under load from the case being sized. So you set it to cam over to compensate.

When sizing .002" would this be enough to warrant cam over? When I adjust my dies I do just enough to get the .002" bump. Never have to cam over.

 

[918v]

When sizing .002" would this be enough to warrant cam over? When I adjust my dies I do just enough to get the .002" bump. Never have to cam over.

It all depends on your die, the diameter of your brass, the shoulder length, your chamber and how much you’re sizing.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Redding comp shell holders are made so you can cam-over on the shell holder while achieving proper shoulder bump. This helps eliminate press flex as an inconsistency in sizing.

The instructions to screw it to the shell plate than back off 1/4 turn, are instructions for a starting point in die adjustment. Its just a generic starting point where you probably wont over bump your shoulders, or take 50 tries adjusting before you even start sizing the body.

Most of the time, with regular shell holders you will have too much bump if cam over on the shell holder. I try to set up chambers so a fully sized piece of brass {cam over on the shell plate} is .002-.004 smaller than the chamber. Then I can make my die adjustments with a little harder or softer cam over.

If the shell holders didn't come with instructions. You are supposed to size a fired case with the shortest shell holder. You then measure the case vs fired to see which oversized shell holder will give you the proper the bump. You are meant to cam over on them, and most presses will cam over.

As mentioned earlier cam over makes a lot of pressure. You shouldn't need to hang off the handle like a jungle gym to make cam over, but due to things flexing a soft cam over and hard cam over will size the case a little different.{I.E more sing or less sizing}

this.

and remember: most of the dies will size your brass too short if you will have full contact/cam over with ordinary shellholder and the die. so if you want to have only 0.002' shoulder bump, you will have some gap between shellholder and your die, and this will lead to inconsistences with shoulder bump/headspace, depending of your press.

for illustration: my lee 223REM die will size just right (0.002' shoulder bump) when i have full contact/cam over. good die.
but on the other hand, my whidden 223REM die will size 0.023' too short with full contact!! total shit !!
my redding 284WIN die will size 0.011' too short with full contact/cam over, so perfect would be their competition shellholder with +0.010' longer setting.

 

[TBass]

Just as a final summary straight from Redding to help clear up any confusion.

When doing an initial die setup & using competition shell holders (this part of it is KEY). They recommend a slight cam over. Then you use the competition shell holders to obtain the amount of shoulder bump that you are looking to achieve.

This has been confirmed with them via the phone & followed-up with a subsequent email with another individual at Redding.

To quote Redding:
“Yes, I would recommend using at least a little bit(1/8 turn) of cam over when using the competition shellholders. This will help you maintain more consistent results because you are reducing the amount of play in the die threads and/or press linkage.”