Advanced Marksmanship Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

[TimK]

I lost the recipe for the magic load for my rifle and am working it up again. (2nd firing of new brass shot much differently)

The rifle and I have shot numerous consecutive 3/8"-1/2" groups.

I was out load testing this morning and shot a 4 shot group into 3/8" with one about 3/4" away. With another load, I did almost exactly the same thing.

What I'm trying to understand is if the fliers are most likely me or if the load is to blame. I'm hoping it's me because I'm sick of load development.

I can post pics if that helps.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

More often then not, it is the shooter.

Were you chronoing them?

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More often then not, it is the shooter.

Were you chronoing them? </div></div>

I wasn't. That would have been a good indicator.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

the other question would be is how are you reloading (throwing/weight)? Powder? Back checking? How many in each sample size?

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the other question would be is how are you reloading (throwing/weight)? Powder? Back checking? How many in each sample size? </div></div>

Neck size, shoulder bump, weighing every charge on a digital scale by taring the scale with the case on it then throwing the powder and trickling up to the specified weight. My method worked perfectly with virgin Lapua brass, so I suspect it's good. Groups were 5 shots, and both had 1 flier. I shot about 6 other groups this morning and did not see any other obvious flyers, just crappy accuracy.

 

[badbot]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

no cell phones in room and no floresent lights?
digital scales get wierd around these things

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no cell phones in room and no floresent lights?
digital scales get wierd around these things </div></div>

Both, if you count CFL's. I'd not heard this before.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Where are the fliers going in relation to the group? Are the fliers consistently going to the same point?

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

No, one left and the other right.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

It may be inconsistent finger placement inducing slight side pressure on the trigger while pressing.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Inconsistant position, NPA, and follow through can lead to no end of headaches.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, one left and the other right.</div></div>


this is an indication of seating depth....

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rhys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inconsistant position, NPA, and follow through can lead to no end of headaches. </div></div>

I believe this to be true, however, shouldn't I see the scope come off target due to my errors? I'm fair at calling my shots, but I'm not a total knucklehead. If I was moving the rifle a full MOA off target, I'd think I'd see it. Am I wrong? What am I missing?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

sometimes i quote myself

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sometimes i quote myself </div></div>

If you're referring to the seating depth, I measured every one and they were all <span style="text-decoration: underline">+</span> 0.003".

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sometimes i quote myself </div></div>

If you're referring to the seating depth, I measured every one and they were all <span style="text-decoration: underline">+</span> 0.003".</div></div>




very good......now try something completely different.....and see what your barrel likes......and adjust it to get the holes to stack....savvy ?

 

[gugubica]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sometimes i quote myself </div></div>

Sometimes I quote you too.

Tim, what bullets are you using?

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sometimes i quote myself </div></div>

If you're referring to the seating depth, I measured every one and they were all <span style="text-decoration: underline">+</span> 0.003".</div></div>




very good......now try something completely different.....and see what your barrel likes......and adjust it to get the holes to stack....savvy ? </div></div>

Gotcha. Unfortunately, I have a huge amount of freebore, like 0.100". I can seat the bullet up closer to the lands, but I'm still going to be a long way from ever touching them if I want the cartridges to feed from the magazine.

.308
168g SMK
44.3g Varget
Lapua Brass
Federal Primer
2.810" COAL
Neck sized with 0.337" bushing (might be 0.001" big)
Shoulder bumped back for easy chambering, no way to measure.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Its called shooter error. SPend more time working on that than the "magic load"

John

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I lost the recipe for the magic load for my rifle and am working it up again. (2nd firing of new brass shot much differently)

The rifle and I have shot numerous consecutive 3/8"-1/2" groups.

I was out load testing this morning and shot a 4 shot group into 3/8" with one about 3/4" away. With another load, I did almost exactly the same thing.

What I'm trying to understand is if the fliers are most likely me or if the load is to blame. I'm hoping it's me because I'm sick of load development.

I can post pics if that helps.</div></div>

Tim,

What you really need to do here is start thinking, that's to say you need to start analyzing. Shooter/target analysis skill is essential to becoming the extraordinary shooter you're seeking to be. Trying to figure this stuff out after you've vacated your firing point is not going to get you anywhere fast.

First, get a data book, this is also known as a score book. Call every shot and plot it, as well as the strike. Is there a corollary? Are shots on or off call? Are groups directional? These and other comparisons/results regarding calls and strikes will help you to find the source/s of errors quickly; and, getting errors resolved quickly makes everything about good shooting more rewarding.

BTW, your load probably has absolutly nothing to do with your results, unless your "fliers" were from cartridges loaded with extremely defective components. It's possible, but from a shot call and strike analysis, you'd likely conclude trigger control or NPA was at fault. For example, let's say you call the shot at 3 o'clock and, indeed, the strike is at 3 o'clock, well, that pretty much confirms, one, that the rifle was zeroed for conditions and two, poor trigger control, and/or NPA not fully adjusted, disturbed consistent control of the rifle.

No doubt, shot group sizes and patterns can be the result of a multitude of problems, but, eventually, you'll be able to trouble-shoot and resolve these things all by yourself while still on the firing line.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

The fix is not to shoot groups. Print a target w/ a bunch of single targets on it. Shoot each target individually. If you HAVE to have a group size cut the individual targets out and stack them.

Nothing will get into a shooters head and make him forget the basics quicker than the possibility of a good group.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Lindy]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

I agree with Doc.

A lot of shooters get wrapped around the load development axle while they are still learning to shoot.

So do a lot of people who actually can shoot.

This is not a useful thing to do.

Those who are not benchrest competitors would be well advised to adopt one of the many published loads which will shoot well in nearly every rifle, and concentrate on shooting skills instead of on load development.

Shooting one round per target is an excellent way to do that. Make every shot the best one you can make.

But, frankly, shooting at small paper targets at short range is an excellent way to waste time and money, but not a useful way to refine shooting skills. Arguably the most difficult task in tactical rifle shooting is reading the wind, and shooting at short range teaches one nothing about that.

Most shooters - and I include myself in that group - would be much better off to spend their time dry firing in their yards than shooting at short-range targets.

Give me 5 Taliban downrange, though, and I'll be pleased to shoot a group.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Give me 5 Taliban downrange, though, and I'll be pleased to shoot a group.
</div></div>

You mean you would be happy to shoot a bad group?! Huh, who'd of thought!

-Chris

 

[Lindy]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mean you would be happy to shoot a bad group?!</div></div>

Yeah - I don't care how far apart they are...

 

[dareposte]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was out load testing this morning and shot a 4 shot group into 3/8" with one about 3/4" away. With another load, I did almost exactly the same thing.
</div></div>

I had something like this happening to me, and eventually tracked it down to powder fouling on the crown. It might not be what's ailing you, but its easy to check.

Just my experience.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fix is not to shoot groups. Print a target w/ a bunch of single targets on it. Shoot each target individually. If you HAVE to have a group size cut the individual targets out and stack them.

Nothing will get into a shooters head and make him forget the basics quicker than the possibility of a good group.

Cheer

Doc </div></div>

In addition to the fascination with groups, there are many other distractions to good shooting which folks succumb to, like high magnification scopes, bipod supports, and even the target itself. Folks perceive that it's small, way out there, or hard to see. Thing to do is deal with these things. Learn how to use these things for the aids they are.

Fact is, shooting groups at short range is an ideal way to identify general, as well as specific marksmanship errors. And, even though the only thing for sure is that the bullet holes indicate where the barrel was pointed, by observing the shooter and groups, analysis about the principles of marksmanship and the elements and factors of a steady position can be very productive.

The shooter's motive and mindset, no matter how anal it may be, is moot. If mindset is a distraction to good shooting, whether it's negative thinking, or most anything unproductive, it can be directed and contained by simply having the shooter concentrate on the firing task, that's to say, focus on the sight and pull the trigger smoothly.

For any aspiring or seasoned shooter, grouping is a tool which, rather than being avoided, should be embraced. It's an asset to becoming a bettter shooter when used for shooter/target analysis which is supported by shot calls, follow-through and a data book.

 

[TimK]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Thanks for all the thoughtful and insightful replies. Based on your advice, I think I'll declare this load "developed" and just go shoot. That's been my goal all along, and I thought I had this behind me when I lost the recipe.

I'll be shooting in my first precision rifle competition next Saturday, so I suppose that will be an excellent learning experience.

Now to get a range log...

 

[Paulus]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Five shots at five taliban for five hits is a great group no matter how big the spread.



Paulus

 

[jthyttin]

Re: Can a flier be a sign of shooter error?

Tim, how (and how often) do you clean your gun? Just a thought, since 308 shouldn't be too bad on copper fouling etc.