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Can a lead sled reflect the accuracy of my rifle and load?

IndianCent

Private
Minuteman
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Feb 10, 2023
70
22
Idaho
I started to shoot groups for accuracy, using a 223 Zermatt TL3 action with a Shilen 26" barrel and MDT ACC Premier chassis. After the initial adjustments for the bullet seating depth, I got .75" outside to outside groups, that are now opening up to one inch. Everything is the same. Before I make any changes to the rifle and/or loads, I would like to make sure that I am not the problem. Can a lead sled provide a reliable answer? I would want to just pull the trigger and don't touch anything in order to take me out of the equation.
Is this a good idea or the wrong approach? Please let me know what your experiences with this method have been.
 
Yes. To a point, it reduces the shooters involvement.

I'd be looking at torque on every fastener. Make sure the scope is all the way forward in the pic rail. Clean the barrel thoroughly.

Also, sounds like this is a new rifle. I'd check all that torque and such and then do load development again. I like to shoot a couple hundred rounds in a non-barrel burner before I get real serious about settling on a particular load to make sure everything has settled in, particularly the barrel.
 
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Yes they can help. Be careful though, if you are using a bigger caliber it can cause a problem. In a friend's case after repeated firing the stock broke. That said with some common sense you can get good data to work with.
 
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I am trying to check my performance by comparing it to the results of this mechanical device. Is this a valid comparison or will it be a flawed test?
Honestly it's not a simple question to answer. Kind of yes and no. A sled WILL take the human element out of the equation. But the recoil could cause accuracy issues in a sled vs a person with good recoil management. If you .223 is in a good heavy chassis and you have a solid bipod and a good rear bad set up a sled likely won't improve anything. If you are laying your rifle on a pack for example and are not very steady then a sled can help.

I have a sled and have had good luck playing with it. But I do see more repeatable good results with a solid rear bag set up and good fundamentals.
 
Yes. To a point, it reduces the shooters involvement.

I'd be looking at torque on every fastener. Make sure the scope is all the way forward in the pic rail. Clean the barrel thoroughly.

Also, sounds like this is a new rifle. I'd check all that torque and such and then do load development again. I like to shoot a couple hundred rounds in a non-barrel burner before I get real serious about settling on a particular load to make sure everything has settled in, particularly the barrel.
Thanks, everything is clean and checkes out torque wise. I am still at the starting charge
 
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Yes they can help. Be careful though, if you are using a bigger caliber it can cause a problem. In a friend's case after repeated firing the stock broke. That said with some common sense you can get good data to work with.
I agree, I am using 223 in a heavy chassis. I just want to see if the accuracy is better in a lead sled. In that case I have to work on my skills instead of changing the hardware/loads.
 
Honestly it's not a simple question to answer. Kind of yes and no. A sled WILL take the human element out of the equation. But the recoil could cause accuracy issues in a sled vs a person with good recoil management. If you .223 is in a good heavy chassis and you have a solid bipod and a good rear bad set up a sled likely won't improve anything. If you are laying your rifle on a pack for example and are not very steady then a sled can help.

I have a sled and have had good luck playing with it. But I do see more repeatable good results with a solid rear bag set up and good fundamentals.
Appreciate your take, I am just trying to make sure it is not me causing the problem. The more I can remove "me" from the process, the better answer I should get. I am using a MDT ACC Premier chassis, it is heavy and stable. If the sled produces tigher groups without flyers, I know I have to work on my skills.
 
Honestly it's not a simple question to answer. Kind of yes and no. A sled WILL take the human element out of the equation. But the recoil could cause accuracy issues in a sled vs a person with good recoil management. If you .223 is in a good heavy chassis and you have a solid bipod and a good rear bad set up a sled likely won't improve anything. If you are laying your rifle on a pack for example and are not very steady then a sled can help.

I have a sled and have had good luck playing with it. But I do see more repeatable good results with a solid rear bag set up and good fundamentals.

Appreciate your take, I am just trying to make sure it is not me causing the problem. The more I can remove "me" from the process, the better answer I should get. I am using a MDT ACC Premier chassis, it is heavy and stable. If the sled produces tigher groups without flyers, I know I have to work on my skills.
I have a sled and have used it quite a bit for various things. I will still use it, I am sure.

What I find even more stable than my sled are heavy sand bags. The range I use to frequent near Lapwai uses old shot bags filled with sand. To prevent sand from leaking, most of the bags have been sprayed with some sort of rubberized compound, like the stuff Billy Mayes advertises, Flex Seal.

Stack up several for the fore end. I would place each layer perpendicular to the next. Each layer is 2 bags laying side by side. The next to last layer is parallel to the rifle, the last layer, a single bag would get karate chopped to create a channel for the rifle fore stock.

Similar for the rear bags but usually just one or maybe 2 layers. This foundation is truly key and you don't want it to be able to shift around at all.

I then use the buttstock angle to get on target, pushing the rifle forward to go lower or back towards me to get higher. You are using that front set as a fulcrum.

Then apply some shoulder to absorb recoil, rest my cheek, focus on the target, get ready for a shot with the bolt open, not a round in the chamber. Close my eyes, inhale and exhale several times and open my eyes. Nothing should have changed. If it did, I re-positioned, usually myself but sometimes the rifle and bags, until nothing changed when I went through that exercise.

I know it's all good when I pull the trigger, recoil happens and I am still either right on the point of original aim or very close to it. If not, I am not positioned behind the rifle correctly.

What I try to eliminate doing this is me muscling the rifle into position. I have also eliminated any sort of "hop" that can happen with a bipod. I am not knocking bipods and use them when possible...usually on a bench because otherwise, grass or weeds or shit is in the view from a bipod while hunting. I prefer using a backpack that sits much higher than any of my bipods or a tripod if I don't mind carrying one.

This is the same process for any rifle shooting (as far as I know), albeit, in a live situation like when hunting, you do not have time to build and rebuild that shooting position. That's why it's important to build that skill, that feeling that everything is right, when the shot doesn't really matter other than ego, so you instinctively know when shit is right or not.

A .223 should not have much recoil to manage AT ALL so taking you out of the equation is less difficult than say a 300WM.
 
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I started to shoot groups for accuracy, using a 223 Zermatt TL3 action with a Shilen 26" barrel and MDT ACC Premier chassis. After the initial adjustments for the bullet seating depth, I got .75" outside to outside groups, that are now opening up to one inch. Everything is the same. Before I make any changes to the rifle and/or loads, I would like to make sure that I am not the problem. Can a lead sled provide a reliable answer? I would want to just pull the trigger and don't touch anything in order to take me out of the equation.
Is this a good idea or the wrong approach? Please let me know what your experiences with this method have been.
1"@100 yds is good enough.

Just practise more until you get a feel for when you know if it is you or the rifle. It might take a couple of thousand rounds, but be diligent and precise in your practice and you'll get there sooner.

Also.

If the barrel is new, it takes about 50 rounds to settle. Use those to get a feel for the rifle. Then start load development.

If you want to minimize external factors, sand bags are preferrable.

So to answer your question:
No. IMO you want to involve yourself in the evaluation as to know if it's you or the rifle/load. Excluding yourself will possibly only lead to you still doubting your results.

Best of luck!
 
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I have a Lead Sled. And a FireControl. And a Rok Front rest. And A Hyskor. Yes, I sometimes chase equipment.
I have yet to find a better solution than prone with a good bipod and a rear bag. The 'mechanical' solutions just introduced problems that honestly were a PITA to deal with, and I discovered that as I practiced my position and fundamentals, the mechanical solutions produced more error and doubt. Want to buy some equipment?
 
Appreciate your take, I am just trying to make sure it is not me causing the problem. The more I can remove "me" from the process, the better answer I should get. I am using a MDT ACC Premier chassis, it is heavy and stable. If the sled produces tigher groups without flyers, I know I have to work on my skills.
Nothing wrong with trying it. just don't be surprised if it does or does not make a difference.
 
IMO lead sleds are handy to hold a rifle still when trying to bore sight (look thru bore, look thru scope, wash/rinse/repeat) but not really all that much better than just using bags.

As far as shooting groups from one....no bueno in my experience. IMO, far better to have proper fundamentals and have good recoil and trigger control than trying to rely on a lead sled. They aren't BR micrometer rests, ya know.
 
Let’s also try to keep some perspective that the difference between 0.75” and 1”
“groups” may not be statistically significant.
Sorry, gotta live up to my lic plate.;)
 

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Not an insanely experienced shooter here but I believed in lead sleds and I have one. Groups opened up and couldn’t understand. Spoke with vortex, read some online. Long store short I ditched the lead sled, went with a bag and my groups closed up with that firearm. I now use my lead sled for bore sighting as said above and to hold the gun while working on it. If you have a Caldwell you could always just use the front as a rest.
 
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Not an insanely experienced shooter here but I believed in lead sleds and I have one. Groups opened up and couldn’t understand. Spoke with vortex, read some online. Long store short I ditched the lead sled, went with a bag and my groups closed up with that firearm. I now use my lead sled for bore sighting as said above and to hold the gun while working on it. If you have a Caldwell you could always just use the front as a rest.
I am starting to think that the lead sled will not be the answer, just more "stuff" sitting around. Out of curiosity I may try my Cliff Arnold 40lb rest and back up the light recoil of the 223. This may be giving me the same insight as a lead sled.
 

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I am starting to think that the lead sled will not be the answer, just more "stuff" sitting around. Out of curiosity I may try my Cliff Arnold 40lb rest and back up the light recoil of the 223. This may be giving me the same insight as a lead sled.
Ah...if you have that...I have to ask...WTF are you even asking about a lead sled?
 
Still trying to puzzle out tango romeo mike oscar.

I have not used a lead sled but I have seen others use it well enough.

But I have also wondered about accuracy with such a hard back to it. One could use it for bore sighting by eye. Or be lazy like me and use a laser bullet at a known distance.

For me, it all boils down to how still is the reticle on target. I don't have a lead sled and not really a place to lay prone, which would be the best position. Since hunting with a tripod and clamp is my activity, I can get close to that at a range at a table with a bipod and the butt against my shoulder. I will use the table to brace both arms and use my off hand under the butt.

And get some good shots with factory ammo.

I agree with others. Before changing the recipe, make sure that one's skills are up to the task. I am constantly working on that. Some days, I settle well. Other days, I am all over the place, same gun, same lot number of ammo.

Again, I don't know how much a lead sled will remove the shaky human from the equation.

However, and this is totally a layman's thought, a recipe with a human shooter in real circumstances would need the most time. That is, since we know that in a competition or hunting you will not have a lead sled on a concrete table while hunting or shooting positions, find the consistent balance of skill, rifle, and a load that is working.
 
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I think you would need something like this to really take the shooter out of the equation or at least minimize it:

 
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Ah...if you have that...I have to ask...WTF are you even asking about a lead sle

I think you would need something like this to really take the shooter out of the equation or at least minimize it:

Nice rest, it might be worth the money considerring what we spent on the hardware and ammo components. Thanks, I will save that link.
 
If you can have a solid rest. that does help. Going prone, at least my house and taking out the broiler drawer handle with a handy shot, the Bottle Rest makes me steady.

Of course, any really heavy bag is going to help.

Also, what must be addressed is recoil. And cost is not the factor, consistency is.

So, the hydraulic recoil pad from Falcon Strike is about $160 but it works really well and the felt recoil is pushy, no pain at all. Therefore, no flinch, better precision.

Same, believe it or not, with the el cheapo Limbsaver Air Tech slip-on. Makes my 7 PRC (in a chassis) feel like a pushy, instead of jabby, .308.

I wanted Falcon Strike to make a hydraulic for my Oryx chassis but they will not. I even talked on the phone with an engineer at their company.

So, I tried the Back Stop from Backfire TV (Jim Harmer.) Regardless of opinions about his content, etcetera, it seemed like a good idea and he makes some specifically for MDT / Oryx chassis (of which I have both.) More expensive than Limbsaver, less expensive than Falcon Strike.

It did not work out for me. Two important things. The recoil redirection of the two-stage mesh is not consistent. Specifically with windage. My rifle that shoots 1 MOA or better for 3 shots (which is all I care about) was shooting 3 and 4 MOA. Just ridiculous. And a few times, because of the wobbly recoil response, I was getting hit by the edge and getting some painful jabs and got a flinch going and knew I had to cut the range trip short.

Put my Limbsaver back on and spent the next few weekends retraining myself without the flinch. Finally got my groups back where they need to be.

I have only bought one of the Back Stop and I will not buy another. Others MMV.

So, that might be the other problem with a lead sled. Is it a repeatable recoil response?
 
After the initial adjustments for the bullet seating depth, I got .75" outside to outside groups, that are now opening up to one inch. Everything is the same.
How many rounds? What's the cleaning/copper removal regimen you use?

As mentioned, check the usual shit- though with loose action or scope mounts you'd see more than 1/4".
I don't think it's you, inconsistent shooters shoot inconsistent groups.
 
How many rounds? What's the cleaning/copper removal regimen you use?

As mentioned, check the usual shit- though with loose action or scope mounts you'd see more than 1/4".
I don't think it's you, inconsistent shooters shoot inconsistent groups.
I use Bore Tech C4 and Bore Max, just added Bore Tech Eliminator to see how well that works. The next range visit will show if I can repeat todays's good results.
 
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