Navy SEALs don't have to fill out tons of paperwork, get fingerprints, spend $1-2k of their own money and wait a year to get them so they don't care if they fail as they just go grab another one from the armory. We should not be worrying about what the military does. LOL
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Suppressors Can I cool a hot supressor in water?
- Thread starter 2aBaC̶a̶
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Why is this a crazy question?
How hot is the can and what’s it made out of?
The forged in fire reference was a good one. Heating a metal past it’s annealing point and quenching it in water cools it extremely rapidly, often causing it to warp and leaving the material extremely hard and brittle. Metals are often quenched in various oils that allow them them to cool at a slightly slower rate, preserving initial hardness while avoiding warping and dangerous spatter.
Then the metal is annealed to arrive at the desired hardness/toughness for the intended application.
Maybe you’re shooting the shit out of your can and getting it piping hot. Then again, maybe it’s only hot to the touch. If it’s the latter and the material has a high annealing point it’s extremely unlikely you’d do any damage.
If you’re getting it cherry red, dousing in water is a horrible idea.
Talk to the manufacturer to play it safe.
How hot is the can and what’s it made out of?
The forged in fire reference was a good one. Heating a metal past it’s annealing point and quenching it in water cools it extremely rapidly, often causing it to warp and leaving the material extremely hard and brittle. Metals are often quenched in various oils that allow them them to cool at a slightly slower rate, preserving initial hardness while avoiding warping and dangerous spatter.
Then the metal is annealed to arrive at the desired hardness/toughness for the intended application.
Maybe you’re shooting the shit out of your can and getting it piping hot. Then again, maybe it’s only hot to the touch. If it’s the latter and the material has a high annealing point it’s extremely unlikely you’d do any damage.
If you’re getting it cherry red, dousing in water is a horrible idea.
Talk to the manufacturer to play it safe.
I took a class at the LGS put on by Sig Sauer on their suppressors. They told us that in the winter time in New Hampshire, they cool their cans off by sticking them in the snow.
They told us that it didn't hurt them.
I asked a friend who, even though he isn't a certified metallurgist is into it a lot, about cooling off rifle barrels and cans with water soaked rags.
He told me that the only way the properties of the metal would be altered is if it was glowing red hot. The way that I shoot, the cans aren't going to get red hot. Neither are the barrels.
He told me that I could throw water soaked rags on the barrels and cans all day long and it wasn't going to hurt them.
I'm just repeating what I was told and I haven't had any problems with the practice so far.
Feel free to disagree with me as I'm sure this post might generate some debate but they are my barrels and my cans. I'll cool them off anyway I like.
They told us that it didn't hurt them.
I asked a friend who, even though he isn't a certified metallurgist is into it a lot, about cooling off rifle barrels and cans with water soaked rags.
He told me that the only way the properties of the metal would be altered is if it was glowing red hot. The way that I shoot, the cans aren't going to get red hot. Neither are the barrels.
He told me that I could throw water soaked rags on the barrels and cans all day long and it wasn't going to hurt them.
I'm just repeating what I was told and I haven't had any problems with the practice so far.
Feel free to disagree with me as I'm sure this post might generate some debate but they are my barrels and my cans. I'll cool them off anyway I like.
It is stainless and Im not getting it glowing hot. the occasional mag dump or 2 but thats rare. mostly rapid precision from bolt or semi. it does get hot enough that spit or water just beads off.
Info that came with it says DO NOT remove hot which is subjective. Define hot.
leaning toward wet rags like I do when brazing pipe. its a slow(er) cool than a dunk and will keep water out.
Info that came with it says DO NOT remove hot which is subjective. Define hot.
leaning toward wet rags like I do when brazing pipe. its a slow(er) cool than a dunk and will keep water out.
Get a suppressor cover. Never another issue with it being hot. No rags or water or other bs.
Good. It also cuts mirage which can get bad with a suppressor and trying to shoot precise with a high powered optic.
Then consider doing as I did and by a high temp suppressor pouch from Rifles Only. Can with cover goes right in and I can handle it w bare hands and put it right in a ballistic nylon case without harm.
The Fatty Suppressor Pouch
riflesonly.com
Now that suppressors are to be issued to all Corps Infantry, it's just a matter of time before some Marine decides to heat up his coffee with a hot suppressor. I might have to read the 87 page TOP to see if that was addressed!
Marines are perfect for testing anything. Just like the old joke eludes to.
What happens if you put a Marine in a padded room with three ball bearings?
He will break one.
He will lose one.
He will make one pregnant.
What happens if you put a Marine in a padded room with three ball bearings?
He will break one.
He will lose one.
He will make one pregnant.
My suppressor came with a nomex condom for transport and storage
Mine never seems to stay crazy hot too long, I just allow time in my trip for the can to cool.
As has been said, what EXACT metal is it made from.
I saw stainless mentioned.....is it 316, 440, 430, 420, 404, etc etc and so on ????
Learn the terms, Bainite, Magnetite, Martenite, Austenite.....these are the phases metal goes thru and define the molecular shifts.
I will say that it will in no way get hot enough to change phase, it will however, get hot enough to go thru a tempering process and "draw back" the hardness if it has been hardened (which I seriously doubt).
Yes I took metallurgy, yes it was eons ago, yes I remember diddly shit from the course.....isn't that the way it goes for all of us ?
Just as a general point....stainless would need to be at least 1800*F for a phase change and probably closer to 2100*+ for a full change.
You're not going to get it even close to that.....those temps will have it glowing fucking mad.
You *might* get it to 500*f on an extreme case, that isn't even really draw back temp, it's minimal to steel of any sort.
Draw back temps are easily double that.
Here...look....read....learn...
www.azom.com
I saw stainless mentioned.....is it 316, 440, 430, 420, 404, etc etc and so on ????
Learn the terms, Bainite, Magnetite, Martenite, Austenite.....these are the phases metal goes thru and define the molecular shifts.
I will say that it will in no way get hot enough to change phase, it will however, get hot enough to go thru a tempering process and "draw back" the hardness if it has been hardened (which I seriously doubt).
Yes I took metallurgy, yes it was eons ago, yes I remember diddly shit from the course.....isn't that the way it goes for all of us ?
Just as a general point....stainless would need to be at least 1800*F for a phase change and probably closer to 2100*+ for a full change.
You're not going to get it even close to that.....those temps will have it glowing fucking mad.
You *might* get it to 500*f on an extreme case, that isn't even really draw back temp, it's minimal to steel of any sort.
Draw back temps are easily double that.
Here...look....read....learn...
Stainless Steel - Heat Treatment
Stainless steels are heat treated for a variety of reasons. Treatments include annealing, hardening and stress relieving. They are used to restore desirable properties e.g. corrosion resistance to metal altered by prior fabrication operations or produce hard structures able to withstand high stresse
www.azom.com
Well no shit... You mean water won't hurt an ambient-temperature suppressor that hasn't been shot... Who knew???
I bet they also don't try to shoot them while under the fucking water, either. 
Common sense dude.That being said... Certain suppressors are tough enough to dunk in water after a surge cycle, without sustaining any damage at all. But your average lightweight thin-walled tubeless design suppressor is not that rugged. A Dead Air Sandman can handle this type of torture, because it's built and designed to be able to. But something like a Dead Air Nomad-Ti would most-likely crack or sustain stress-fractures in the welds (and, or walls) after getting really hot and then getting dunked in cool water. And next time you get it warm...It blows in half.
Also, let's not forget the fact that the military gets issued shit that they don't have to spend a single penny of their own money on, and wait over a year to get permission to take possession of, and then feel obligated to take care of it. Because it's paid-for by our tax dollars. So, do you think they really give a fuck about their equipment? The government sure doesn't... Ask ol Joe Biden when he let the hadjis have over $85 BILLION of our small-arms, missiles, bombs, vehicles, planes, tanks, helicopters, and equipment.
Since we are just guessing now, I'm guessing anyone in the military serious enough to be running a suppressor would not get it screaming hot and intentional drunk it in water if they could avoid it.
Except Marines, they would, actually I'm fairly sure some Marine has tried to cook an iguana by shoving a suppressor inside the iguana and then doing mag dumps.
Seriously, SEALS sacrifice gear for the mission as needed, that doesn't make it a good idea or make all the various gear civilians have comparable to what SEALS use.
FireFlex® | Techflex.com
Techflex is the proud manufacturer of FireFlex 0.50 Black FIN0.50BK and many other great braided sleeving products. See them all at Techflex.com!
www.techflex.com
A few thoughts from someone who's actually done a bit of thermal shock testing in his career:
1) The suppressor material doesn't need to go through a phase change in order to suffer damage from what we refer to as "thermal shock". This is pretty simple macro-level stuff; don't over-complicate the matter by throwing out facts like aged 17-4 being primarily a martensitic structure with "bcc" copper-rich carbide precipitates, and over-aging causes those bcc precipitates to grow and change to "fcc" precipitates. It doesn't really matter, nor is any of this necessary to make a weld go "tink" (you know that sound, I know that sound, it's a really bad sound).
2) Fatigue from stress is cumulative, and so even if the suppressor doesn't fail on the 1st, 3rd, or 50th dunk, you're using a portion of its life each time.
3) The stress caused by dunking the can into a water bath is not the same as the stress induced by the firing schedule. This isn't at all "symmetrical", and even though the stress induced by the firing schedule is quite evil, I can promise you that dunking it is worse.
4) Characteristics that give the suppressor "toughness" to survive a difficult firing schedule do not translate to surviving a dunk. In fact, it may make matters worse; something that is constructed from thick chunks of Stellite (a material that is extremely brittle) might crack when dunked because of the temperature difference through the cross-section, while a thin cross-section made from a ductile material such as SS or titanium could shrug it off without damage. There are reasons that leaf springs are made of several thin pieces.
5) Many of these exotic materials behave strangely over temperature. Furthermore, if you've got one of those suppressors that is made from multiple materials - say, Stellite and/or inconel welded to 17-4 - then you've introduced multiple sets of material characteristics which tends to make things worse. A fun fact for the aspiring engineers - Stellite has a coefficient of thermal expansion (AKA "tempco") that varies with temperature; it increases by about 20% from 100°C to 700°C, and since it was already 25% higher than 17-4 at room temp, this tends to complicate matters. If we look at the thermal conductivity of different materials, we see that Stellite starts off substantially lower that 17-4, but at 500°C the difference is far less pronounced.
By contrast, predicting the performance of a single material will be more straightforward (albeit still quite complex).
I will now sit back and await some truly unhinged replies by midwits that will undermine any faith I may have once had in the human race.
1) The suppressor material doesn't need to go through a phase change in order to suffer damage from what we refer to as "thermal shock". This is pretty simple macro-level stuff; don't over-complicate the matter by throwing out facts like aged 17-4 being primarily a martensitic structure with "bcc" copper-rich carbide precipitates, and over-aging causes those bcc precipitates to grow and change to "fcc" precipitates. It doesn't really matter, nor is any of this necessary to make a weld go "tink" (you know that sound, I know that sound, it's a really bad sound).
2) Fatigue from stress is cumulative, and so even if the suppressor doesn't fail on the 1st, 3rd, or 50th dunk, you're using a portion of its life each time.
3) The stress caused by dunking the can into a water bath is not the same as the stress induced by the firing schedule. This isn't at all "symmetrical", and even though the stress induced by the firing schedule is quite evil, I can promise you that dunking it is worse.
4) Characteristics that give the suppressor "toughness" to survive a difficult firing schedule do not translate to surviving a dunk. In fact, it may make matters worse; something that is constructed from thick chunks of Stellite (a material that is extremely brittle) might crack when dunked because of the temperature difference through the cross-section, while a thin cross-section made from a ductile material such as SS or titanium could shrug it off without damage. There are reasons that leaf springs are made of several thin pieces.
5) Many of these exotic materials behave strangely over temperature. Furthermore, if you've got one of those suppressors that is made from multiple materials - say, Stellite and/or inconel welded to 17-4 - then you've introduced multiple sets of material characteristics which tends to make things worse. A fun fact for the aspiring engineers - Stellite has a coefficient of thermal expansion (AKA "tempco") that varies with temperature; it increases by about 20% from 100°C to 700°C, and since it was already 25% higher than 17-4 at room temp, this tends to complicate matters. If we look at the thermal conductivity of different materials, we see that Stellite starts off substantially lower that 17-4, but at 500°C the difference is far less pronounced.
By contrast, predicting the performance of a single material will be more straightforward (albeit still quite complex).
I will now sit back and await some truly unhinged replies by midwits that will undermine any faith I may have once had in the human race.
All I know is my can won't be dunked or have water poured over it to cool it off. There's enough issues with welds on suppressors.
Serious question are you squeezing in range trips between important meetings or something? That would make sense why you can cant just let it cool. When I'm done shooting I take my can off with a oven mitt type apparatus(my buddy swear by his "oveglove" and stand it up on end by the time I've cleaned up and packed up my cans usually able to be bare handed.
Keep in mind a suppressor cover will hold heat in also.
Keep in mind a suppressor cover will hold heat in also.
It also holds in mirage which is more important but it depends on the cover you get as you can easily move the suppressor out or peel away the cover to allow it to cool. A suppressor cover is the correct answer to his question.
+1 on the suppressor cover.
I've also noticed that on windy days the heat waves are blown away from the suppressor and reduces the mirage considerably.
So if its a little windy, I can squeeze in a few more shots compared to a calm day.
I verified this one day by setting up an electric fan next to me and blowing on the barrel and suppressor.
When the fan was blowing, the mirage either stopped or was greatly mitigated. When I stopped the fan, the mirage returned.
I have advanced studies in metallurgy and I approve this message.
I suggest a Modtac cover. I have another well-respected maker’s cover and I don’t mag dump but I still accidentally melted it a little with my AR. I rarely shoot my AR but was trying to trouble shoot a cycling issue and was taking a shot every 3 secs or so for a couple of 20 rd mags.
Anyway, I learned a lesson!
The Modtac is better for keeping the suppressor cool and keeping itself cool. It handles mirage well. The downside is you need an Allen key to remove it if you want to take the suppressor off.
I think rifles only makes a heat resistant pouch if you want to take a hot suppressor off and store it somewhere (like if you have to leave the range in a hurry).
Anyway, I learned a lesson!
The Modtac is better for keeping the suppressor cool and keeping itself cool. It handles mirage well. The downside is you need an Allen key to remove it if you want to take the suppressor off.
I think rifles only makes a heat resistant pouch if you want to take a hot suppressor off and store it somewhere (like if you have to leave the range in a hurry).
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I have a suppressor cover and it works great. Oh and i carry a welders glove as well, but allow plenty of time to cool, or bring another.
Love ModTac. I would like to see more from them and for them to continue to grow and innovate.
LOL, what? Who told you that?
I've cut a bunch of stainless, and that claim is frankly ridiculous.
Besides, what does that have to do with cooling a hot structure made of multiple welded parts, and often different materials too?
That's what I do when I'm testing. My magnetospeed won't allow for my cover to be on the can so I just use a wet rag to cool the can and barrel. It works well. I also have a cooling chamber fan I use at the same time but it's pretty quiet. The two together make it a short wait to cool off my can. This is on a bolt gun, not an AR.
The cooling rate from a wet rag will be significantly slower (a good thing) than dunking in water. Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about applying a wet rag to most welded rifle cans, but wouldn't want to dunk it if it's hot enough for water to sizzle off it.
The other part of dunking it is if it's still wet inside when you shoot it again. That creates steam, which can create a lot of pressure really quick. Many rifle can makers state not to use water or other ablative in your can for this reason; dunking it and then shooting it again would be doing exactly what they warn against.
(And FWIW a little water in the can is usually acceptable with most pistol rounds. Not so much with rifle rounds.)
The other part of dunking it is if it's still wet inside when you shoot it again. That creates steam, which can create a lot of pressure really quick. Many rifle can makers state not to use water or other ablative in your can for this reason; dunking it and then shooting it again would be doing exactly what they warn against.
(And FWIW a little water in the can is usually acceptable with most pistol rounds. Not so much with rifle rounds.)
Dear gawd.....
Who in the gawds fucking earth would ever think of making a suppressor out of stellite ???????????? and fucking ?????????
Stellite is brittle. it is primarily an alloy for making cutting tools, not a suppressor, idjit.
You mention midwits.
From what I've seen, you should aspire to be such.
BTW, call it what it is.
17-4 is 17-4PH.
Of course you understand what that means.....yes ?
Who in the gawds fucking earth would ever think of making a suppressor out of stellite ???????????? and fucking ?????????
You sir, are a fucking moron.
Stellite is brittle. it is primarily an alloy for making cutting tools, not a suppressor, idjit.
You mention midwits.
From what I've seen, you should aspire to be such.
BTW, call it what it is.
17-4 is 17-4PH.
Of course you understand what that means.....yes ?
Oh yay, another one who imagines they know way more than they really do. Based on the content of your post, it’s pretty clear that E. Bryant knows a lot more about this stuff than you do.
Ever heard of a blast baffle?
Anyone who actually works with the material knows what 17-4 is without having to add PH on the end every time. Do you get confused when someone refers to moly coated bullets too, and insist they type out “molybdenum disulfide” every time?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but lots of companies that build hard-use suppressors use Stellite for their baffle stacks inside of a fully-welded stainless tube. For example, the Dead Air Sandman series of suppressors have Stellite baffles inside of a stainless tube. The whole thing is fully-welded up and sealed together.
Sandman-S | Dead Air Silencers
deadairsilencers.com
Ah, classic bystander metallurgists.
I asked if you KNOW what the PH means.....scramble for google pleebs.
You don't know, but you'll say you do.
Stellite = the most brittle phase ..... do you know what, or why ?
Nope, you haven't a clue.
'Splain it all to daddy, bitches, lets hear the long and short of it.
Please, nizzle, stop posing, it's unbecoming.
I asked if you KNOW what the PH means.....scramble for google pleebs.
You don't know, but you'll say you do.
Stellite = the most brittle phase ..... do you know what, or why ?
Nope, you haven't a clue.
'Splain it all to daddy, bitches, lets hear the long and short of it.
Please, nizzle, stop posing, it's unbecoming.
I think pretty much anyone who works with it knows the PH means precipitation hardening. And that’s irrelevant to your insistence that it not be called just 17-4.
Stellite is used for wear resistance, as most anyone who’s read about rifle cans already knew. Which again, is irrelevant to your insistence that nobody uses stellite in suppressors.
You’re trying to show off your minimal knowledge but are failing to a) sound intelligent and b) maintain any relevance to what was said. A wiser man would just stop, but I’m betting you’ll triple down on making yourself look stupid..
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Did you know drinking too much beer can actually produce an estrogen-like chemical reaction in men... Which causes them to get emotional, irrational, whine, and bitch, and they can't shut the fuck up. Aren't fun-facts interesting?
Anyone who claims to have cut stainless with a torch is a liar and an idiot. Note these 2 folks above. Research it yourself fellas, and then mark the 2 above who claim to have done it so you can disregard their vomited statements in the future.
Real men cool their suppressors like this:
Get a cover like...well, everybody suggested.
THEN, since you are worried about melting your range bag, car seats, etc...and the ends of the can are exposed even with a cover, get the damn high temp pouch from Rifles Only that I linked. This ain't hard, mate.
Get a cover like...well, everybody suggested.
THEN, since you are worried about melting your range bag, car seats, etc...and the ends of the can are exposed even with a cover, get the damn high temp pouch from Rifles Only that I linked. This ain't hard, mate.
Had a dumbass wreck an M60 by pouring cold water onto it after he turned the barrel white! He wound up having to pay for that gun.
As a general dumbass and hobbyist oxy-acetylene welder (emph on the word hobbyist) I do believe this fellow is correct on the narrow point. The key thing here is the phrase “normal oxy/acetylene” and the verb “cut.”
I am being a bit liberal here and also expanding his definition to include normal/standard cutting methods. Normal being: using just a cutting torch right on the metal you want to cut.
And by “cut” @Hecouldgoalltheway probably means separating the metal by way of “exothermic oxidation reaction.”
This page discusses melting vs cutting and says, “One often makes the mistake of believing that melting is cutting. This is because the only visible agency that seems to be doing the cutting work is the flame. It is important to understand that it is the exothermic oxidation reaction that enables the cutting.”
As I understand it with my tiny brain, oxy/acetylene cuts chemically and in a way rusts it’s way through metal. Fast. And if you rust something super fast it’s called burning.
After the chemical oxidation is done (really fast!) the torch gas pressure blasts the weakened metal off the item, leaving behind the cut.
This is probably wrong. Again: hobbyist/small brain
With normal cutting methods, my research indicates oxy/acy will just melt through stainless (if it’s thin enough) and not in a nice clean-looking way. I mean, it is “cut” in layman’s terms but it’s not like the two melty pieces would be very usable afterwards? The essential properties of the metal might also be messed up but some engineers will chime in on that, I trust.
Thick stainless appears to laugh off the mighty oxy/acetylene
(in finest Soup Nazi voice: No oxidation for you!)HOWEVER
It does appear like one can cut stainless with oxy/act by either using a special cutting head that injects a powder flux as it operates or by using some hacks with a normal torch.
The hacks are things like using a carbon rod in front of the flame or laying down carbon steel on top of stainless to cut through both.
I am unsure if the hacks would still really be more efficiently melting the stainless vs cutting and if this would only be useful for demo work…not sure if this method would mess up the properties of the stainless.
Again, I’m not trying to argue, I’m a dumbass, just trying to inject some dispassionate info (that may be wrong).
The cool thing about oxy/acetylene is that’s how (most? all?) of the welding during, say, WWII was done. It’s a really neat and relaxing way to weld. Slower but studlier lol.
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To cut metal with oxycetalene, the material must oxidize. The cutting is done by forcing oxygen through oxidized material.
It cannot happen with stainless. It does not oxidize. My statement is simple and correct.
It cannot happen with stainless. It does not oxidize. My statement is simple and correct.
This is a little, uh, undiplomatic?
Vomited?
Will you slap them with your white glove and challenge them to a duel at sundown? Lol
C’mon man. We should at least attempt to enjoy each other’s company and try to help others. Before we kick them in the balls.
Such a simple question and in true internet fashion turns into a debate on metallurgy with “experts” screaming they are right. Got to just get some enjoyment from it I guess. Lol
Bonus:
Cutting 8ft of steel with oxy/acetylene. Setup looks a little janky? But what do I know.
Some places can cut up to 10ft, I guess:
www.thefabricator.com
Now go back to dunking your suppressors in vats of liquid nitrogen!
Cutting 8ft of steel with oxy/acetylene. Setup looks a little janky? But what do I know.
Some places can cut up to 10ft, I guess:
Oxyfuel cutting very, very thick plate
When a fabricator needs to cut steel that’s 6 inches thick or greater, the company almost always turns to oxyfuel cutting. There’s a very good reason for that.
www.thefabricator.com
Now go back to dunking your suppressors in vats of liquid nitrogen!
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Go back and look at the posts that I was responding to before you start aiming your decorum ray. This is another failure to grasp context before making judgement.
But you can weld stainless steel with oxycetalene. Your statement implies to laymen that stainless is impervious to the heat from an oxycetalene touch. That is bad advice in context and irrelevant to quenching a suppressor in water.
