Can match quality ammo be loaded with inexpensive dies?

[bhart89]

I'm about to purchase a .260 Remington setup (I currently reload on a 550b 9mm, 45ACP, .223 and .308) and I'm looking at dies. Can a set of Lee or RCBS dies in the sub $50 range give me enough accuracy to be content? Or will I end up buying two be happy?

Are the Forster or similar bushing type dies that much better than the Lee/RCBS dies?

ETA: I will not be weighing powder with the dillon powder measure.

 

[aur0ra145]

I am currently using Lee Deluxe die set for my 308 Win. It's shooting about .6" @ 100y when I do my part. I know that I am the limiting factor to this rifle set up. I'll eventually upgrade to Forster or Redding, but that will be some time in the future.

 

[Unknown]

I would recommend RCBS over Lee dies. The lee dies I had scratched up the necks of Grendel brass and caused dramatically shortened case life. I reload for 260 Rem with a Forster full length sizer die, and a Redding micrometer seating die. I think you will be happier if you wait a while and buy a nice quality seating die, but you could live with the RCBS sizer for a while, although you won't get as good of results as you would with higher quality dies.

I think the saying is: Buy cheap, cry twice; buy good the first time, and only cry once.

 

[FLIGHT762]

If you haven't bought any 260 dies yet, an inexpensive set up is to buy a Redding 260 Rem. body die ($30.00-$35.00)and a lee Collet (neck only) die set ($30.00) with a seating die. The body die and Lee collet set will cost about $65.00, but will make accurate ammo. The bushing dies are nice since you can adjust your neck tension with different bushings, but this can be pricey.

You can make accurate ammo using standard dies. Some don't like running a carbide expander back through the neck, some say it doesn't matter. I've used about all of the different dies out there and the Lee collet neck sizer used with a Redding body die when you need to F/L and bump the shoulders of your cases makes accurate ammo.

 

[gixxer822]

is it possible yes. ppl tend to think more money means better. sometimes it holds true other times it doesnt. i have redding and lee. both produce great stuff. the only reloading product ive ever had issues with is RCBS. its all personal experience. honestly all are great if you know how to use em.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Yes, and no. If you can find some "cheap used dies", get them. They can always serve as "back-up dies" As you "move forward", in the reloading process, you will want the "competition dies", "some day" BUT "SOMETIMES, you can shoot OK, with the "Plain jane factory dies" I always, repeat, ALWAYS, get a set of "plain janes", for back up. If you "set them correctly", they'll work fine. Depends on your "set up", and your "skills". My "back ups", are for fast runs of plinking rounds, and the "stuck case problem", which happens. Nice to have a "back up set, when you "have time", and stick a case. I've been there. Saturday morning. "Cleared day." Second case jambs. Now, what do ya do? Spend 2 Hrs., clearing, or switch to the "back ups"? Best kept secret: SIZING WAX..... Better than any thing else! Imperial. Get some, and you won't "go back".

 

[M1Amen]

I think you can make really excellent ammo on inexpensive dies, but I also think the benefit to the more expensive micrometer dies is that you can precisely control the jump of the bullet to the lands of the barrel.

Without a dial indicator like the micrometer dies have, this would be more costly in terms of time. You could still do it by scribing a marking onto the seater plug on the top of the die and then dividing the circumference of the top of the die into equal portions depending on the thread count. Then you could screw the plug in or out a certain amount to achieve the seating depth you want. The more expensive dies accomplish this for you right out of the box. Also, the more expensive dies might do a better job of keeping the bullet in alignment as you raise it up to the seater plug.

I use a Forster die and it took me a while to learn the quirks of using a micrometer die. It was not as obvious as you might think. Basically, I have found the best way to seat the bullets is to seat them all intentionally long with the micrometer set at the zero indicator. Once the bullets are seated, I use a Hornady bullet comparator to measure the from the bullet ogive to the base of the cartridge. If I am targeting 2.250 on a .308 and the first seating gave me a measurement of 2.254, then I rotate the indicator on the die to lower the seating plug by 0.004 and push the cartridge into the die again. Then I remeasure and it is usually dead on.

I do this for each round because I shoot a brand of projectiles that is less expensive than some of the premium bullets, and the curvature of the bullets varies slightly, so leaving the seater at just one depth would lead to inconsistent bullet jumps.

Hope this helps,

M1Amen

 

[Fuzzball]

"Are the Forster or similar bushing type dies that much better than the Lee/RCBS dies?"

Depends on how the die tolerances stack if it makes any difference at all but the difference would typically be quite small at best, especially if you're buying a factory rifle. Concentricity is the issue and while Fosters and Reddings ARE consistantly good - even if not perfect - the occasional conventional die set of any brand works just as well so it's NOT a cut-and-dried thing. And, if your cases aren't good or properly prepped, no dies will make high grade ammo out of them.

Thing is, it's how you use the dies more than the color of the box, nothing's automatic no matter how much money you spend on your tools. I have more than a dozen brands of dies and they all work quite well when I do, including my Lee's, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Redding and Forster's plus the other brands that are long gone. The only real difference I find in most die sets are the seaters and I find that Lee's seaters, on average, are much better than they're given credit for, fully as good as any other brand or model except Forster/Redding.

Bottom line, the specific tolerances we get with both dies of any new two die set is the luck of the draw because all conventional dies vary about as much within the same brand as they do between brands. Forster/Redding dies are "better" only because of their design, not tolerances. And, as FLIGHT762 suggests, using a body sizer die along with Lee's Collet neck die is excellant for FL sizing, as good or better than any bushing sizer and a WHOLE LOT less fussy!

IF you do want the more costly dies, Forster's BR seater is fully as good as Redding's and less costly too. Their extra cost micro heads are nice but they don't do a thing to the precision of the reloads.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Micrometer dies are a convenience....nothing more. I have handloaded some fantastic ammo with "cheap" dies over the years. This is the problem that all new reloaders face. Many voices out there trying to convince you to spend beyond your means. Buy what you can afford and don't get caught up in the bells and whistles. It is true that most of my boxes are now light green(Redding) but I aquired them over many years. There are still a few Lee and RCBS dies on my shelves. Generally they work fine, and yes they will load match grade ammo. That doesn't mean they are benchrest dies, that is a whole nuther level of madness.

 

[bm11]

Micrometer dies are a convenience....nothing more. I have handloaded some fantastic ammo with "cheap" dies over the years. This is the problem that all new reloaders face. Many voices out there trying to convince you to spend beyond your means. Buy what you can afford and don't get caught up in the bells and whistles. It is true that most of my boxes are now light green(Redding) but I aquired them over many years. There are still a few Lee and RCBS dies on my shelves. Generally they work fine, and yes they will load match grade ammo. That doesn't mean they are benchrest dies, that is a whole nuther level of madness.

On the other hand, if you CAN afford micrometer dies, they are well worth the additional expense in time savings. Adjusting seating depth is much faster and more precise, and I wouldn't be without them. But agreed, if you can't afford them, you can still make ammo just as well. It'll just take more time and aggravation.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've got a Lee Deluxe set in 223, Pacesetter for 260 and 223AI, and a Collet Set in 223 and 260.

I also have Forster BR dies for my 260.

My accuracy did not get any better when I started using the Forster BR dies for my 260, though the seater does seem "better". If I did it over again, I'd spring upfront for the micrometer seater.

The 223AI generally runs in the 1/2MOA ballpark, depending on how much I'm sucking any given day. Running a bushing die *might* give me even more accuracy...but I've achieved "good enough".

 

[damoncali]

Yes. You can load good ammo with cheap dies. You may still want the fancy ones later though. I can't live without mic seaters anymore - I'm spoiled.

 

[scissorhands]

i just use the green box RCBS dies, only have reloaded for 2 rifles, 1/2 moa on one rifle and 1/4 moa on the other @ 100 yards. It can be done. all about quality control!!!

 

[Huskerhunter]

Yes, but you're more likely to be overworking your brass. With the price of premium brass these days, it's an odd place to try and save money IMHO.

 

[elfster1234]

IMO, yes! big redding fan.

 

[EricCartmann]

To me dies are dies. Don't know how one brand can be better than another brand. It's not rocket science, all you are doing is reforming your brass through a die. If you have inconsistencies in resizing, you can't blame the dies.

I like my Lee Neck Sizer die, makes very accurate rounds only because I am sizing only the neck.

I see the convenience of Micrometer dies if you are seating different types of bullets and different calibers. But if you are using the same seater for the same bullet and same caliber, then I do not see any advantage to micrometer seater dies.

 

[glassbeaver]

Lee collet neck sizing dies are a stoke of genius. I have the redding bushing neck sizer guy for my 300wm and kinda hate the bushing system. (Really expensive too). On the other hand I love redding body dies and seater dies. To all their own really. All manufacturers have pros and cons.

 

[P7id10t]

Of course you can!
The corollary also applies: you can make crap ammo from expensive match dies.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Works for me! I use some old hornady custom grade stuff for my .308. It's cheap and my rifle shoots like a laser. Some of the reviews I have read on my dies are terrible! Haha

 

[afate45]

For .308, I use a Lee Collet neck size die and for seating a Redding Mic Seater. I get the same performance, sometimes better if I do my part well, as factory match ammo. The Lee FL size die is crap (IMHO), BUT the Collet die is truly amazing. I used the Lee seater die for a few rounds, and it works and produces combat accurate rounds, but if you're looking for match ammo performance...go with a Redding or Forster seater.

 

[FLIGHT762]

For a micrometer seating die on the cheap, buy a Hornady micro seater stem ($25.00) and a regular Hornady seating die ($20.00) and attach the micro seater stem. I have a couple and they work very well.

 

[Tripwire]

I made some damn impressive ammo in my younger years for a 7x57M with a Lee Loader, a plastic hammer, and a home made powder scoop........

 

[JoshcBoucher]

That's it, right there!Give a "genius"a 2x4, and he'll build a space shuttle. Give an "idiot" the controls, and he'll blow the launch.It's all about being careful, with your measurements, and work. Check, and double check. Think, and think again. Read the book. Twice. Then proceed. I reloaded, for yrs., with plain jane RCBS dies, and did fine. Now, I'm "retired", and have a little extra "scratch". so I got some of the "better dies". I may be using them to their potential. Some days, I'm a Genius, some days, I'm the village idiot. Depends on how many brain cells fire, at one time. One day, I "snuck out " to my man cave, to do some reloading, before she got her coffee. Figured I had an hour, before she got me on the "to do" list. I was on my second batch of 100 308s, when I picked up another primer box, and there it was:Large Pistol primers! Being in a hurry, doesn't make it go faster.

I made some damn impressive ammo in my younger years for a 7x57M with a Lee Loader, a plastic hammer, and a home made powder scoop........

 

[6mech]

You sure can. My .308 loads stay under MOA at 500 yds using plain jane RCBS dies.

 

[glassbeaver]

I think you have your answer lol

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Yes, but you're more likely to be overworking your brass. With the price of premium brass these days, it's an odd place to try and save money IMHO.

Hate to disagree with you but price point of dies has absolutely nothing to do with your brass being overworked. ANY full length die that is properly set up will not overwork your brass. I FL size everything with a minimal bump and I lose brass to primer pocket growth, even on light loads, long before the brass has give up the ghost to head seperation. This is a very common myth and one that seems to have cropped up in the last few years with the advent of bushing dies. If you anneal and PROPERLY set up a FL die there is no need for a bushing die or neck/collet dies. Using a FL die properly does seem to be one of the things that most confound new handloaders.
Many BR matches have been won with FL sized brass so the accuracy argument is irrelevant.

I do like your signature line, and agree.

 

[Huskerhunter]

Hate to disagree with you but price point of dies has absolutely nothing to do with your brass being overworked. ANY full length die that is properly set up will not overwork your brass. I FL size everything with a minimal bump and I lose brass to primer pocket growth, even on light loads, long before the brass has give up the ghost to head seperation. This is a very common myth and one that seems to have cropped up in the last few years with the advent of bushing dies. If you anneal and PROPERLY set up a FL die there is no need for a bushing die or neck/collet dies. Using a FL die properly does seem to be one of the things that most confound new handloaders.
Many BR matches have been won with FL sized brass so the accuracy argument is irrelevant.

I do like your signature line, and agree.

Fair enough. I was likely one of those confounded newbies in my younger years! It is interesting how the thinking has switched back to FL sizing--when I started loading for accuracy 20 years ago it was neck sizing all the way! I do find the Forster bushing/bump system to be the best of all worlds--but it is a $100 die.

 

[chefcam864]

You can make fine ammo with standard dies. I personally like the design of Lee's expander as it seems to induce less runout than many other standard dies. However, I use a Whidden FL Bushing die and a Forster Ultra Micrometer seater die. It's a fantastic combo, but a bit spendy. IMO, the best deal around are the "Standard" Forster dies. Their sizing dies are very, very good and the Benchrest seating die is essentially the Ultra without the Micrometer. At $65 these are tough to beat, and are what I recommend to anyone wanting quality without breaking the bank. The Benchrest seater, like the Ultra and Redding Competition, supports the case while seating the bullet. This results in a measurable reduction in runout.

 

[Bruno]

Very informative thread, as I was looking to buy a new set of dies. Excellent advice.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yes, RCBS F/L or the equivalent is what I have always used, and I have only ever owned one press, an RL550B. I use the Dillon measure, and check each charge weight for 'critical-application' ammunition production.