Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Lofty

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 14, 2008
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Lenexa KS
A buddy of mine has been arguing with me a ballistics issue. He's a hunter and has never done any long range precision shooting, or precision reloading.

He says a bullet is a bullet. If you push a bullet that weighs a certain amount to a certain speed, the rest is just math when it comes to figuring out where it will hit. He also says that reloading is reloading and that most of the work done in precision reloading is voodoo, not science. He claims that a progressive press will do ammo every bit as well as a coaxial single stage press does. That as long as powder charge is the same, bullet depth is the same, the round doesnt know what press or set of dies seated it.


I disagree and try to explain to him that bullet shape and aerodynamics plays a huge roll. How far the bullet travels without reducing speed, staying trans sonic longer, dealing with turbulence better....those are key factors. In regards to reloading i know the key is to remove as many variables as possible. There are enough already to deal with considering the shooter and environment.

I dont reload but I have done some reading and deductive logic tells me that checking bullet weights, uniformity, concentricity are are critical. Also that a precision press will give you more consistent bullet seating depth I would imagine.


So basically he believes that as long as the bullet has enough steam to get there, no one round is better than any other round.

The argument started over 7mm Remington Mag. He says that round can do anything and everything ever required by any long distance shooter and everything else is either overkill or voodoo nonsense. He says Im just splitting hairs and being trivial.

I say that as with anything thats precision, splitting hairs is whats it is all about. Minutia is the key.

I say that there's much more to it, but instead of arguing I just cite the fact that if he was right and that one bullet didn't really matter from another, the precision arms race would have ended with the 7mm Rem Mag.


Since I dont reload and I am not an expert on ballistics, maybe some here can help me with my argument. Or maybe tell me he's right.....if he is.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

One doesn't have to be an expert in ballistics. You've already hit on important aspects the he blows off as voodoo. Everything in LR Shooting is based off of physics and science and if he can't understand that on principle alone, he's not going to understand it when you actually explain it to him in detail. Do you think if you add more facts he's all of a sudden going to have an epiphany? He's an idiot and isn't going to listen to any type of reason, fact, science etc.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One doesn't have to be an expert in ballistics. You've already hit on important aspects the he blows off as voodoo. Everything in LR Shooting is based off of physics and science and if he can't understand that on principle alone, he's not going to understand it when you actually explain it to him in detail. Do you think if you add more facts he's all of a sudden going to have an epiphany? He's an idiot and isn't going to listen to any type of reason, fact, science etc.
</div></div>

^^
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One doesn't have to be an expert in ballistics. You've already hit on important aspects the he blows off as voodoo. Everything in LR Shooting is based off of physics and science and if he can't understand that on principle alone, he's not going to understand it when you actually explain it to him in detail. Do you think if you add more facts he's all of a sudden going to have an epiphany? He's an idiot and isn't going to listen to any type of reason, fact, science etc.



</div></div>

LOL.....I also told him that.

So then maybe more of a specific question regarding reloading.

He says his Dillon 550 will do everything and anything a precision single stage will do from a precision standpoint.

I was looking at getting a Forster Coaxial as I want to start reloading. The argument is why would I waste my time with a single stage when a progressive can do anything a single stage can do and still load hand gun rounds as fast as possible.

He claims the bullet doesnt know what press seated it in its case.


Im not a rocket surgeon and I dont try and reinvent the wheel. I figure people much smarter than me that have been doing it for years and years have these things figured out. So I just follow in the footsteps of experienced people until I know enough about the issue before I start any paradigm breaking. I cant imagine anyone serious about long distance shooting loading on a progressive....not to mention the fact its limits the cartridge size you will be loading anyway.


But for my own edification, what is the biggest difference between a precision press and something like a progressive? I can look at the designs and figure a quality single stage HAS to be more consistent......but in what way? What exactly is the mechanics and what exactly is a quality single stage going to do better?
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Use an analogy his pea sized brain might be able to understand. Try this one, get a football, and have him throw it as far as he can. Then get a round ball that is the approximate size and weight of the football and see which one goes further. If you have to get to the point to where he is about to launch the rounded ball, then he is without a doubt an idiot and you need to find a new friend.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

In a way, you are both right. He is correct that you can take any bullet and a given powder charge/velocity range, etc., and with mathematics, predict how it will fly and possibly where it will hit. However, he is overlooking a few things. One, there are proven combinations of bullet weight, shape and external ballistic factors that make some bullets fly faster, farther and truer than other weights and shapes. Reloading allows the loader/shooter the ability to remove variations from the equation by maintaining uniformity of powder charges, bullets sorted by weight, etc. - i.e., holding loads to tighter tolerances.

So yes, you can buy a box of factory ammo and run the numbers based on bullet type, projected velocity, etc., and come up with a good idea of how it will perform, but if you choose a caliber with the "magical" combinations of sectional density, high BC and good bullet selection (such as most 6.5's and 7mm's) and meticulously control the loading, then your projections of performance have much tighter or smaller ranges of variation than your friend's option.

Of course this goes back to the statement, "for those that understand, no explanation is needed..., for those that don't, none will suffice."
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He claims that a progressive press will do ammo every bit as well as a coaxial single stage press does. That as long as powder charge is the same, bullet depth is the same, the round doesnt know what press or set of dies seated it.</div></div>

That part is true, it's all about consistancy.

You're talking about 7mm. Hornady makes several 154 gr .284 (7mm) bullets.

Get #2835 154 RN bullets, and some #28302 SST 154 grn bullets.

Load them the same, (brass, powder, primers, etc) and go to the 500 yard or so range and see which one shoots better.

You can't tell some people anything, but you can show them.

He'll have a hard time arguing his point after shooting those two bullets.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He claims that a progressive press will do ammo every bit as well as a coaxial single stage press does. That as long as powder charge is the same, bullet depth is the same, the round doesnt know what press or set of dies seated it.</div></div>

That part is true, it's all about consistancy.



</div></div>

But does a progressive press do everything as consistent as a quality single stage? What about seating concentricty? Is bullet seating depth just as accurate?

Why would anyone spend money on a single stage then?
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?



the catch is that you have to use the progressive like a single stage in order to get the consistency of a single stage.

and people buy single stages because that's all some of need, so why spend extra for a progressive
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

I went down the rabbit hole of OCD reloading a few times. Worst thing a guy can do is start reading Precision Shooting magazine lol.

IMO its really dependant on what degree of accuracy you are trying to achieve. I have been able to consistantly crank out better than factory match 308 ammo on a Dillon RL 550. I have also been able to improve on those loads by spending countless hours on a single stage with lots of case prep and sorting. Did the extra steps help...yes was it worth the time involved...HELL NO!

I think the only real dissadvantage the progressives have is for full length resizing and throwing powder but if you have the right set up the variance is negligable if using factory match ammo as the yard stick.

For some shooting activities any variance is unacceptable such as Benchrest where point something makes or breaks a score.

If you really want to push things you should be hand weighing each charge, hand priming, sorting projectiles by weight and density, trimming the meplat after point forming and loading on an arbor press. So like I said I have gone down this road and it sucks way to much of my time to be worth it when I can make great ammo in large quantities in a short time.

I truly beleive the best route if a guy has the coin to swing it is to have both. Use the Single stage for FL resizing and then load on the progressive. This is what I do when I go visit my dad as he has several set ups. I'm limited by my budget and will soon be purchasing either a Co-Ax or a T-7 turrent press as I will primarily be loading for a 300WM which is pushing it for a 550 unless the brass is presized.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Tell yourfriend

"Never paint with a broad brush. You lose too many details." Deputy Dawg.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Thats the other thing, the 550 simply cant handle the bigger cartridges, especially when resizing from what i understand. You need the torque and leverage to resize bigger brass properly.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Well yes and no maybe I phrased that wrong. I should have said that its pushing it in so much as what I'm comfortable with.

Bear in mind you are performing multiple steps at once so as you said leverage factors in. This translates more to user fatige than wether or not the press can take it. I think the Dillions can do it but its not alot of fun for the guy pulling the lever each time.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

You are right, your friend is wrong. Argument resolved.



smile.gif
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

I run my 550 as a both a progressive (What it was intended for!) and a single stage depending on the product I am looking for.

Progressive for pistol ammo or bulk rifle ammo (30-30, 35 Remington, 8mm Mauser, large batches of 5.56, etc.). Single operations for my most accurate rounds.

I don't have any specialty sizing or seating dies as yet and that will be my next step.

So far I haven't found any shortcomings in the ammo that couldn't more truthfully be put on the shooter!
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

I got a question...
Am I the only one that found out the recommended powder loads from the Sierra book never push the bullet near the speed it is supposed to. I loaded up several different calibers according to the book and all went much slower than indicated out of long barrels or carbines.
A Chrony was absolutely required, and I put my Rock Chucker on a portable work stand and actually loaded up at the range and adjusted loads there to get what i wanted, and then loaded up quantity based on real results.
i suspect the books give low charges bcause of liability concerns, and the Risk Management lawyers got involved with the recommendations.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Physics is pretty irrefutable, the hard part is in getting hardheads to listen in the first place.

Further, arguments like this are seldom about the facts, they soon devolve into pissing matches.

Quickest, realest solution? Just get out a ruler and measure...

The only press I've ever owned and used is my Dillon RL550B, so maybe I'm not really qualified to compare them against others...

I liked it right away, and saw no compelling reason to shop around.

All my F Class 1Kyd .260 ammo was made on it, along with tens (tens? Maybe even...) of thousands of rounds of other ammo the West Hudson Detachment MCL Shooting Team and I assembled on it between the mid-1990's and now.

My own needs go up as far as .30-'06 and .280 Rem, and I've never even wondered whether the press was inadequate for even larger chamberings.

When I was teaching the other team members how to use my press, the first thing we covered was that if you have to push hard, there's a very good likelihood you're doing something wrong. In a decade and a half only one of them ever managed to break anything, and you guessed it, he was doing it wrong.

Greg
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

For bullet shape, of course that matters. If it didn't matter, airplanes could be shaped like cubes. Use any ballistic calculator and change the ballistic coefficient. The difference in bullet drop at 1000 yards is measurable in INCHES and so I agree with you here.

As for the presses, it depends on your friend's argument. If he says there is no accuracy difference whatsoever between a single stage and a progressive, then he is wrong and there is plenty of evidence to prove it. If he is saying the difference is so small it's not worth the time, effort, and money, then I actually agree with him.
 
Re: Can the pit help me resolve an argument?

Talking to your friend is like talking to the wall. Sure any bullet and speed is just math. As you know a better bc and bullet will give more down range energy.

My friend shoot a 7mm rem mag shooting at steel swingers at 900 made him see first hand that the 7mm rem mag is not the best thing out there. He hit it and it did swing. Then came the 338LM and it went all the way around. Now he is saving his pennies and ones to get a 338lm.