So by now most people in the know know that FLIR quit selling to the civilian market and discontinued most if not all models related to the civilian market. What I don't understand is I thought the main reason they bought out Armasight was to get more into the civilian market and then only a few years later just pretty much scrap Armasight and most everything they bought them for. Am I missing something?
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Night Vision Can we talk about FLIR for a moment?
- Thread starter Steel+Killer
- Start date
You’re not missing much. Flir paid a bundle for Armasight, applied Flir “logic” to the consumer market, failed miserably, admitted defeat, and closed up shop in the consumer space.
More someone there is antigun up on the high food chain.
They still offer the hand held models, just not anything weapon mounted.
... keep turning the pages ... the next chapter in the saga might be more exciting 
Cause for a FLIR boycott in my book.
Of course, I don't buy FLIR products anyway, so no skin off my nose I suppose...
Ha Ha boycott what? They don't make anything I want that they are wiling to sell me now....LOL
I am thinking about selling my PTS536 I just bought about a year ago. I saw one go on eBay a few weeks ago slightly used for $3100
I'm gonna take a 12ga to my Flir ONE. Sure, I promised to will it to some Hide dude upon my death, but how he's getting it in pieces.
I'm gonna FedEx FLIR management a Ziploc with a rag soaked in sweat from my nutsack.
I'm gonna FedEx FLIR management a Ziploc with a rag soaked in sweat from my nutsack.
Here is how I see as to what happened, coupled with the anti-hunting VP at FLIR...
Well, no doubt FLIR's demise had been coming for a while, at least in terms of their civilian weapon sights. As best as I can tell, they really messed up with their initial introduction of the RS series (rubber coated square box) line of rifle scopes that were not a hit with the consumer market (circa 2014). The RS scopes were for the consumer market (not military). As I recall, these were FLIR's first sub $10K scopes, the rest being military or military intended scopes that trickled into the civilian market that ranged in price around $12-20K for the ones I was seeing. FLIR was attempting to compete with ATN that was still making a good thermal scope at the time and Armasight, the latter doing a lot of sales and using FLIR Tau 1 cores. IR Defense had just previously come out with their 320 resolution IR Hunter and within months of working out some bugs had a 640 resolution version that was pricey, but gaining in popularity.
Somewhere in here Armasight changed over to the FLIR Tau 2 cores and got an upgraded and more complicated firmware package that allowed users not to adjust the image by brightness and contrast, but by 3 other variables. It was somewhat ridiculous. Most users don't fully understand the extra adjustments and hence don't even mess with them.
Pulsar entered the picture with weapon sights and the civilian consumer market was getting really interesting. I actually got the first US hog kills with a prototype Apex 384 resolution scope in 2015 thanks to Pig_Popper who was my contact at Pulsar at the time. The Apex line of scopes were downright inexpensive and functioned well. I think they were $3500 or $3900 and the were of a quality that seemed to be punching well above their class.
IR Defense was bought out by Trijicon.
The RS line continued to flounder for years and then FLIR had this great idea of buying Armasight in 2016 for $41 million. Armasight had just had their own fiasco product launch with their pathetic Zeus Pro line of high dollar scopes that were apparently supposed to compete with IR Defense/Trijicon scopes, but were too big, used too many batteries, and had a crappy image much for the time. So Armasight was ripe for the picking. FLIR kept on Armasight employees for a couple of years, still making the Zeus and Predator line of weapon sights along with other Armasight offerings (but not the Zeus Pro, IIRC), upgrading and further complicating the firmware along the way and then giving birth to the new FLIR PTS line of weapon sights for the consumer market, only in 320 resolution, but with a 12 micron core that was an improvement over the 17 micron core. Two key players FLIR got rid of or lost were the Tarakanov brothers who had been with ATN, then moved to Armasight. This was a large part of the creative genius behind both lines of scopes and their loss from FLIR was not a good thing, but then again, the new PTS line of scopes were nothing particularly new or interesting. They were just an upgraded version of the original Armasight Zeus models with bigger lenses, more magnification, and unnecessarily complicated firmware. There were promises of a 640 resolution 12 micron core to come soon. This was to compete with the Trijicon scopes that were already running 640 resolution 12 micron BAE cores that were better than the FLIR's Tau 2 640 17 micron cores. Well apparently, FLIR had troubles making the 640 12 micron cores work properly. Pulsar had upgraded to also having 640 resolution scopes along the way, but ULIS (maker of the core) was not able to turn out a 12 micron version either. On top of that, ATN had moved a lot of their sourcing to China and had a new line of Thor scopes that had a bunch of features and were much less expensive overall. To compound matters, FLIR's PTS line of scopes was not hugely successful, fraught with QC issues and poor consumer acceptance. It was doomed to die without having a 640 resolution version. Never mind that N-Vision also entered the market with BAE cores that were kicking butt on anything FLIR could put out.
So in terms of weapon sights, FLIR was getting beat on pricing and market acceptance of their products and seemed to be having QC problems on par with ATN. Moreover, their customer service was found very lacking by those who needed to get their brand new PTS units serviced.
In the end, the PTS line of scopes was turning out to be worse than the abysmal RS line of scopes, but at least the RS line had a 640 version. So basically, FLIR simply could not compete. They hoped to beef up their product line with Armasight-type units but they screwed that up as well.
Well, no doubt FLIR's demise had been coming for a while, at least in terms of their civilian weapon sights. As best as I can tell, they really messed up with their initial introduction of the RS series (rubber coated square box) line of rifle scopes that were not a hit with the consumer market (circa 2014). The RS scopes were for the consumer market (not military). As I recall, these were FLIR's first sub $10K scopes, the rest being military or military intended scopes that trickled into the civilian market that ranged in price around $12-20K for the ones I was seeing. FLIR was attempting to compete with ATN that was still making a good thermal scope at the time and Armasight, the latter doing a lot of sales and using FLIR Tau 1 cores. IR Defense had just previously come out with their 320 resolution IR Hunter and within months of working out some bugs had a 640 resolution version that was pricey, but gaining in popularity.
Somewhere in here Armasight changed over to the FLIR Tau 2 cores and got an upgraded and more complicated firmware package that allowed users not to adjust the image by brightness and contrast, but by 3 other variables. It was somewhat ridiculous. Most users don't fully understand the extra adjustments and hence don't even mess with them.
Pulsar entered the picture with weapon sights and the civilian consumer market was getting really interesting. I actually got the first US hog kills with a prototype Apex 384 resolution scope in 2015 thanks to Pig_Popper who was my contact at Pulsar at the time. The Apex line of scopes were downright inexpensive and functioned well. I think they were $3500 or $3900 and the were of a quality that seemed to be punching well above their class.
IR Defense was bought out by Trijicon.
The RS line continued to flounder for years and then FLIR had this great idea of buying Armasight in 2016 for $41 million. Armasight had just had their own fiasco product launch with their pathetic Zeus Pro line of high dollar scopes that were apparently supposed to compete with IR Defense/Trijicon scopes, but were too big, used too many batteries, and had a crappy image much for the time. So Armasight was ripe for the picking. FLIR kept on Armasight employees for a couple of years, still making the Zeus and Predator line of weapon sights along with other Armasight offerings (but not the Zeus Pro, IIRC), upgrading and further complicating the firmware along the way and then giving birth to the new FLIR PTS line of weapon sights for the consumer market, only in 320 resolution, but with a 12 micron core that was an improvement over the 17 micron core. Two key players FLIR got rid of or lost were the Tarakanov brothers who had been with ATN, then moved to Armasight. This was a large part of the creative genius behind both lines of scopes and their loss from FLIR was not a good thing, but then again, the new PTS line of scopes were nothing particularly new or interesting. They were just an upgraded version of the original Armasight Zeus models with bigger lenses, more magnification, and unnecessarily complicated firmware. There were promises of a 640 resolution 12 micron core to come soon. This was to compete with the Trijicon scopes that were already running 640 resolution 12 micron BAE cores that were better than the FLIR's Tau 2 640 17 micron cores. Well apparently, FLIR had troubles making the 640 12 micron cores work properly. Pulsar had upgraded to also having 640 resolution scopes along the way, but ULIS (maker of the core) was not able to turn out a 12 micron version either. On top of that, ATN had moved a lot of their sourcing to China and had a new line of Thor scopes that had a bunch of features and were much less expensive overall. To compound matters, FLIR's PTS line of scopes was not hugely successful, fraught with QC issues and poor consumer acceptance. It was doomed to die without having a 640 resolution version. Never mind that N-Vision also entered the market with BAE cores that were kicking butt on anything FLIR could put out.
So in terms of weapon sights, FLIR was getting beat on pricing and market acceptance of their products and seemed to be having QC problems on par with ATN. Moreover, their customer service was found very lacking by those who needed to get their brand new PTS units serviced.
In the end, the PTS line of scopes was turning out to be worse than the abysmal RS line of scopes, but at least the RS line had a 640 version. So basically, FLIR simply could not compete. They hoped to beef up their product line with Armasight-type units but they screwed that up as well.
Thanks this was the kind of insight I was hoping for. Now this makes me really want to sell my PTS536 while it still has some value.
Come on man, don't hold nothing back Horta. Tell em what you really think.
FLIR stopped sales to the general public days after the Las Vegas Mass Murder from the hotel window (at Night) that murdered 59 people attending a open space "Outdoor" country western concert. They held back the public announcement till a few days prior to the Shot Show. They held back the announcement because it was Christmas sales season, and they did not want to hurt the retail stores that sold their products and had inventory.
As it turned out the retail stores instantly marked everything on hand to Full MSRP with no discounts to anyone, including store employees.
FLIR had word of rumors the murder had (some brand) Thermal Rifle Scope on one of the many rifles. They felt why risk the entire company line of products......just for sales to the general public. Besides they still had sales to most other thermal scope builders for their core components. So they continued to sell to Military and Law Enforcement Agencies. Which royally pissed'off the general public.
As it turned out the retail stores instantly marked everything on hand to Full MSRP with no discounts to anyone, including store employees.
FLIR had word of rumors the murder had (some brand) Thermal Rifle Scope on one of the many rifles. They felt why risk the entire company line of products......just for sales to the general public. Besides they still had sales to most other thermal scope builders for their core components. So they continued to sell to Military and Law Enforcement Agencies. Which royally pissed'off the general public.
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FLIR can suck a dick.
Final straw for both me and them (before even they realized how full of shit they were as far as commercial side products) was the fucking Breach monocle.
It's appropriately named, as its a total fucking breach of anything remotely close to what they said it was originally going to be and had vendors taking pre orders for.
Nightvision vendors pimped the ever living shit out of this thing. Weapon mountable and recoil rated, would have a digital reticle, would have a large FOV, easily helmet/bridge mountable, all sorts of shit.
One by one there were rumors that one thing or another was scrapped. Then out of nowhere they lauch a Bosun core (same as in the Breach) weapon mounted version and.....the Breach all of a sudden isn't weapon mountable anymore nor does it have a reticle. Somewhere along the line it shrunk the FOV and lense to some laughably small size too. I forget what else, but it was basically a treasure trove of 'shit we didn't do' from there on out.
Oh, and did I mention FLIR raised the fucking price on the units before they even shipped them? Yeah. They can go die in a fucking fire.
Then I get this thing and it refreshes/NUC's like it has digital parkinsons. The external rails on the Ukrainian housing were out of spec as well as (on purpose for some reason) not lined up with the center of the tube but instead, offset to one side. It was technically helmet mountable, but in such a total bullshit Rube Goldberg kind of way that whoever designed this has A. no intention of it being helmet mounted at all and B. no fucking idea what they were doing. A perfect example of FLIR's current place in the thermal world; it was a complete shit show.
I used it twice and went back to a PAS23 laughing the entire way. Total fucking joke.
Oh, and the 3x5 card that came with the Breach that was some 'letter from the CEO' or some shit about how this thermal unit was made with the upmost care and precision and how its some technological marvel made me want to throw someone off a fucking rail bridge. Generally, when companies go to that extent, you know its going to be a complete pile of shit.
Final straw for both me and them (before even they realized how full of shit they were as far as commercial side products) was the fucking Breach monocle.
It's appropriately named, as its a total fucking breach of anything remotely close to what they said it was originally going to be and had vendors taking pre orders for.
Nightvision vendors pimped the ever living shit out of this thing. Weapon mountable and recoil rated, would have a digital reticle, would have a large FOV, easily helmet/bridge mountable, all sorts of shit.
One by one there were rumors that one thing or another was scrapped. Then out of nowhere they lauch a Bosun core (same as in the Breach) weapon mounted version and.....the Breach all of a sudden isn't weapon mountable anymore nor does it have a reticle. Somewhere along the line it shrunk the FOV and lense to some laughably small size too. I forget what else, but it was basically a treasure trove of 'shit we didn't do' from there on out.
Oh, and did I mention FLIR raised the fucking price on the units before they even shipped them? Yeah. They can go die in a fucking fire.
Then I get this thing and it refreshes/NUC's like it has digital parkinsons. The external rails on the Ukrainian housing were out of spec as well as (on purpose for some reason) not lined up with the center of the tube but instead, offset to one side. It was technically helmet mountable, but in such a total bullshit Rube Goldberg kind of way that whoever designed this has A. no intention of it being helmet mounted at all and B. no fucking idea what they were doing. A perfect example of FLIR's current place in the thermal world; it was a complete shit show.
I used it twice and went back to a PAS23 laughing the entire way. Total fucking joke.
Oh, and the 3x5 card that came with the Breach that was some 'letter from the CEO' or some shit about how this thermal unit was made with the upmost care and precision and how its some technological marvel made me want to throw someone off a fucking rail bridge. Generally, when companies go to that extent, you know its going to be a complete pile of shit.
Flir got fined a fuck ton of money because thermals got into the wrong hands by some POS non ITAR abiding dealers and some of our boys got killed .
Thats why armasight is gone.
Thats why armasight is gone.
LMFAO. Best line I've heard in a long time.
But I do personally like the Breach for what it is and at its price point.
ITAR is absolute horse shit. We will let pretty much any POS into the country if someone or a group of someones want something all they got to do is come over here order it, have it shipped to a US address, receive it and from there they can take it or ship it where they want and I am sure that it probably happens everyday.
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You forgot the last part of the story where FLIR fires the former ARMASIGHT owners (minus Dinitri) who start up AGM and reintroduce the same line but change a few cosmeticss to avoid the non-compete. Then we have one of the owners wives who spin up Apache who cannot deliver on a Mil contract on battery housings shared with Carson. Then flood the market with so-called Mil-Spec PVS-14 glass. But I digress...
Even if it's not, it was an instant classic.such a good movie. is it old enough now to be considered a classic?
Buy an AGM? same dudes from Armasight (mostly the same staff even from my understanding), same quality/price point of products, non-competes are all expired, and they changed enough to not get sued over IP
No, I just didn't see any of the stuff happening after the loss of the Tarakanov brothers as being relevant to why FLIR failed in the civilian market. FLIR was in a downward spiral long before that and without being able to bring a 640 core to their new flagship civilian (PTS) line, they were doomed.
That the Tarakanovs first went to PRG and produced scopes in what turned out to be a failed business venture before becoming 2/3 of the new startup AGM really all had nothing salient to do with FLIR going down the toilet.
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