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Gunsmithing Can you "over clean" a barrel?

KurtM

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2009
2
0
Oregon
I was wondering if you can "over clean" a barrel? Not by brushing, but chemically. I just recently switched to Sweet's and have noticed that it is very difficult to get to a clean patch. I'm not leaving the Sweets in the barrel and am following directions, but I keep getting dark brown groove marks on my patches even after 15 or so patches, soaks and brushing.

I have been using CR-10 and Montana Extreme and I generally clean after 20-25 rounds or range session. Is this normal?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Not only can you over clean a barrel, you can shorten its life and completely ruin it more from over cleaning than not cleaning it.

Cleaning is over rated, don't waste your time and your money. wipe it down, clean the receiver and chamber then just knock the heavy off, the rest wants to be where it is and needs to be where it is... don't fight it or obsess over it.

If you shoot on a regular basis, use a bore snake, then about every 500 rounds or so do a quick brush down, (maybe 5 strokes), with maybe 5 patches max beyond that leave it alone.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not only can you over clean a barrel, you can shorten its life and completely ruin it more from over cleaning than not cleaning it.

Cleaning is over rated, don't waste your time and your money. wipe it down, clean the receiver and chamber then just knock the heavy off, the rest wants to be where it is and needs to be where it is... don't fight it or obsess over it.

If you shoot on a regular basis, use a bore snake, then about every 500 rounds or so do a quick brush down, (maybe 5 strokes), with maybe 5 patches max beyond that leave it alone. </div></div>

This is the same argument I use when my wife asks why I brush my teeth only once a week.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

I found that after fouling about 10 shots before a score target, my benchrest rifles shot tighter groups. It took me a while to find out that a borescope only tells you what you can see. Not really what is best.

I don't remove ALL the copper anymore.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Wow, thanks for the advice! I have probably been over cleaning my rifles. Fortunately, they are all relatively new or have been recently rebarreled so I haven't damaged them...I will start to let them run until I see the accuracy fall off.

Thanks,

168
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Old habits die hard.

I believe a lot of the over-cleaning regimens hearken back to the days of corrosive priming compounds.

I pretty much follow LL's recomendation, and all is well.

I use moly too, and prolonged exposure (years) has yet to corrode a bore.

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

I have to admit I'm a recovering anal cleaner. However, I am going to strive for LL's plan, run a bore snake through it at the end of a range day and every 500 rounds give it a slightly more significant cleaning, if I know it's going to sit in a case for over a month, or experience shows accuracy dropping off.

I love the foam bore cleaner, man that stuff is easy, however it does make me wonder a bit because it seems almost too easy, makes me wonder if it's not hard on the barrel. I mean I can scrub and use sweets on a barrel and it takes forever and all the copper still is not out, but put some foam cleaner in there wait 30 minutes and it's all gone. It says it's non-toxic and non-amonia and there is no danger to barrels, but I still wonder. So while I really like the results and ease of use, I'm weary of any cleaner that seems to clean too well being hard on what it's cleaning as well.

So from now on I strive to be a non-anal cleaner! No more spending as much time cleaning my guns as I do shooting them, LL's theory of the copper wanting to be there makes sense. When I stop to think about it it does seem silly to spend an hour trying to remove every spec of copper only to replace it in the first shot back at the range.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to admit I'm a recovering <span style="font-weight: bold">anal</span> cleaner. </div></div>


Ummmm, we are still talking about guns here right?












laugh.gif
lol, j/k
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Comming from a Benchrest background, I think you can damage a barrel if you clean it improperly. Your not going to wear a barrel out from cleaning. Quite a few Benchrest shooters clean after every relay, the barrels maintain a competive edge for up to 1000 rounds. Even then the barrel will shoot groups that will knock people's socks off though the barrel just isn't competitive anymore.

Now, having said that you need to learn what your specific barrel likes. You can get away with stripping the copper out of some barrels. Other barrels like a little copper wash in them otherwise you'll have to shoot until the barrel stabilizes again.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Barnes CR-10 will do a helluva job stripping copper out, you have to stay on top of it though, and the more copper you have the worse the amonia smell gets. I used to be obsessed with squeeky clean barrel, 3 to 5 shots per cleaning, I dont bother much anymore, The foaming stuff works well, but CR-10 is quicker and you dont have to brush, but again if your not on top of it you will frost a bore

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

I am sure that I will be bashed for this: however, I shoot… shoot… shoot some more & I keep shooting until I am 100% confident that a lack of accuracy is due to a dirty barrel (normally 500 to 750+ rounds). Then & only then do I clean it & I get the job done in less than 5 minutes & I am good another 500 to 750 rounds.

Psst… (keep this under your hat) my barrel break in procedure… it is the same as my cleaning regime. Shoot 500 to 750 rounds & then clean the barrel.

I have had a couple of Hide members get behind my rifle & drill targets out to 1K & they would attest that this cat would rather shoot than clean.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

2-3 cycles of foam, soak, patchout. Borescope shows results, barrel needs 2-3 shots to warm up/foul in, before accuracy peaks.

Cleaning wear comes mostly from poor rod alignment with bore, contact wear can damage bore, especially at throat/muzzle areas.

Much of this is a matter of preference. Mine is to clean when returning the rifle home, as I can't always predict how long I will go before shooting again, and if it turns out to be longer than intended, I worry about bore pitting.

For folks who shoot regularly and quite frequently, I can agree with the reduced cleaning stategy, and really, not my place to disagree.

Greg
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

This brings up a good ? and probably the prime reason in the past I've cleaned every range trip.

Does not cleaning the barrel increase barrel pitting or is it just a myth? If I knew I was going to have a rifle sitting around dirty for 3 months in a case or something sure I'd clean it.

However for those of you that are not cleaning your guns for "high" round counts say some of the 500+ rounds we've heard on this thread, how long of a duration is that in time, are you guys shooting 500 rounds every week, or is it a month or a year?

We've all been talking about round counts, but at what point does the time the fowling is in the barrel become more important to bore pitting issue than how many rounds are fired?
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

todd,

SH#50 showed up at RO around 2004 I think maybe 2005, very, very little cleaning, with at least 15k rounds over the years ,potentially 20k rounds. The rifle shot fine for use, we never had an issue with the barrel, until the whole thing broke down. The trigger was fouled, action wouldn't cock. When George received it he was told by Jacob to just fix the action, keep the barrel... well the barrel was missing 4 inches of rifling, George said it was one of the worst cases he saw. We never cleaned it, it sat as is in South Texas, humidity, sea air, etc... for years, months at a clip.

All my rifle down there sit the same way. Whether I shoot them them a lot one trip or a little they are not cleaned before I leave, nor when I get back, and still all shoot lights out with factory flavor.

The Harbinger, on site since mid 2005 is the same way, in excess of 10k round, sits in the RO safe day in and out, is shot, not shot, and usually not cleaned. Never an issue with accuracy and whenever there is a problem we use that rifle to check things. Same with the Werewolf.

Why would we check for pitting, or care as long as we are getting that kind of barrel life and consistent accuracy across the board.

Here is a 5 shot group from the Harbinger, I don't know when I shot it, within a year, and was shot with an ACOG on it at 100 yards.
harbingergrp.jpg


I may have gotten lucky, but that is what the Harbinger does... it shoots. It's also held 3.25" at 600 yards in competition. We don't clear it often, we don't put it in a climate control safe, we turn the A/C, we turn it off, we have the violent dew storms most nights, moisture is everywhere.

Bottom line, why look for trouble. Cleaning done in moderation, correctly is fine, especially when you know you're not going to use it. But frankly, all that other stuff is not worth worrying about. It's not a bench rest gun.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

LL,

Last I remember you were maybe using Wipe-Out?

I just throw a few patches with BBS down the tube every once in awhile, and don't try to flush out ALL the copper.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

YES you can over clean and hurt your weapon,sloppy bore guides and rough/scrachy rods will rough up the throat quick.

shoot enough and you will know what works and don't,no advice from others is taken to heart as well as you having your own experience of first hand knowledge from trigger time over the long haul..

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Here's a somewhat obvious disclaimer... There is still corrosive ammo out there. None of the new, or should I say "recent" ammo is corrosive, but in the interest of covering all of the bases, you can still find it. And I believe it WILL damage your barrel if you leave the residue in there. This probably only applies to us "Cheap Bastards" that have been known to run anything we can get ahold of for a bargain down the tube. If for no other reason, to have donor brass.

I haven't done this with any of my recent acquisitions (5R, SSA M40, 40X, SSG), but I have seen what it can do to a barrel if left uncleaned.

I'm one of the guys out there that DOES NOT believe in cleaning a barrel until accuracy drops off, but at the same time if I don't know the origin of a Military Surplus ammo I'm shooting, I'll at least run a wet nylon brush and then a couple dry patches down the barrel just to be safe.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL,

Last I remember you were maybe using Wipe-Out?

I just throw a few patches with BBS down the tube every once in awhile, and don't try to flush out ALL the copper. </div></div>

I use whatever was left there to be honest. At home I use Shooter's Choice at RO I use the Wipe Out stuff but never leave in it for more than 5 minutes or so, I don't have the patience to let it sit.

Spray the wipeout, patch it and I am off to the races.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

S.G.&Y. BARREL BREAK-IN & CLEANING

Many of our customers upon taking delivery of their new gun or barrel are in a quandary as how to go about breaking-in that new barrel for maximum life and accuracy. With so much written in magazines these days stating use this, don’t use that, brush, don’t brush...what’s a person to do??
At S.G.&Y. Precision, we have a unique opportunity to inspect many barrels on a daily basis with our video borescope. Consequently, we see the results of a variety of break-in as well as cleaning procedures, and most of them leave the rifle owners with their mouth agape when they see the fruits of their misinformed labor on our color monitor. We have seen practically new barrels ruined with less than a hundred rounds shot through them by some of the crazy and sometimes humorous break-in methods. Anyway here goes for what it’s worth.

A. Bore guides- If you don’t have one, get one! Without a good bore guide you are just wasting your time trying to break-in a barrel or cleaning it for that matter. More barrels are destroyed by cleaning without a bore guide than by shooting. There are many types and brands of bore guides available on the market and range in price from $5.00 to $50.00. The only one we recommend is the Lucas two-piece bore guide. They are the best insurance you can buy for that new barrel. All other bore guides in my opinion are only good for keeping the solvents out of the trigger and action.

B. Solvents- We recommend Sweets 7.62 for copper and a *solvent mix of our own(Actually Pat McMillan gave me this formula) for powder fouling and for cleaning/storing your gun for the next match or season. This Speedy Formula is made as follows:

Mix 2/3 rds. Hoppes No. 9 Plus Black Powder solvent with 1/3rd. Regular Hoppes No. 9 Nitro solvent. Let this mixture set overnight and it will form a sort of gel that adheres very well to the brush and cuts powder fouling to a minimum.

* Note: Butches Boreshine may be substituted for this Speedy formula.

C. Procedure for “Break-in”- Before firing that first shot, clean the barrel as if it had been shot by following these simple steps.
Step 1. Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one stop here and get one, if not, just shoot your gun and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy” for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.
Note: One “Aw-” wipes out all “At-A-Boys”.
Step 2. Run one wet patch of Sweets through the bore and let soak for approximately 30 seconds. Do not patch this out.
Step 3. Next, run the brush through the barrel only enough to expose the entire brush. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU” for accuracy. OK, back to our next step. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with our Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and SLOWLY run the brush through the bore 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is when the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.
Step 4. After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with the Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and pass it through the bore. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then dry the chamber with Brake Kleen or lighter fluid. Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth and lube your bolt (lets not gall the lugs just yet). Now, your ready to shoot your first shot. Then follow the schedule below to complete your barrel break-in.
1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.
2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.
3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.
4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.

D. Additional Cleaning Tips-
1. Each time you clean you may also follow the last dry patch with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore.
2. We are always asked about powder fouling and how to remove it. The only product that we have seen that really does a good job on powder fouling, especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with a Pro-Shot nylon bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore. Follow this up with a few wet patches, then dry the bore as usual, and your ready to shoot.

E. Follow the outline above for your regular cleaning program and I promise that your barrels will deliver their greatest accuracy and life without a lot of grief and hours of wondering if they are clean.

Good Shooting,
Speedy Gonzalez
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Here's an answer on moly specific cleaning from Terry Brady, 2005 600-Yard IBS Shooter of the Year
"I use moly and clean every two matches. I don't brush much, and if I do, I normally use nylon brushes."

Since I shoot moly, my cleaning procedure is different than you'd use with naked bullets. I went to moly so I wouldn't have to clean during matches. Now I'll clean every two matches--about every 80 rounds. Here's the procedure: I put a patch of Kroil through the barrel, then wet another patch with Kroil, stroke it pretty good, then I dry patch it. Next I run a couple Montana X-Treme 50 BMG wet patches and I let that set for 5-10 minutes, then dry-patch the 50 BMG out. Then I put a little JB on a dry patch on a jag, and short-stroke about 6-8 inches of the throat area for about a dozen strokes. After that I push another Kroil-wetted patch through again, and then wet/dry patch to remove the JB residue. The last step it to run a patch with Kroil.

This complicated process gets the barrel clean but I've found it may take a dozen or more shots to get the moly back in again so the gun shoots optimally. If somebody has a better/faster way to clean for moly bullets, that doesn't require so many fouling shots, I'm all ears. I generally don't use brushes, but when I do, I'll use nylon brushes (except in rare situations where I really need to attack carbon in the throat). Bill Shehane was the one who suggested I use the nylon. With a nylon brush I will send the brush all the way out the muzzle and draw it back in again. With a fairly loose-fitting nylon brush I can short-stroke the throat area (you can feel it if it's getting rough), but generally that's not necessary, and, as explained above, I can accomplish my cleaning with patches.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL,

Last I remember you were maybe using Wipe-Out?

I just throw a few patches with BBS down the tube every once in awhile, and don't try to flush out ALL the copper. </div></div>

I use whatever was left there to be honest. At home I use Shooter's Choice at RO I use the Wipe Out stuff but never leave in it for more than 5 minutes or so, I don't have the patience to let it sit.

Spray the wipeout, patch it and I am off to the races. </div></div>

Thank you sir!

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

My god ihave been over cleaning for years.I am glad i stumbled across this thread.I haved worked for hours on end trying to remove copper fouling that would just drive me crazy.
Thanks for this thread fellas.I guess i have been brainwashed.I guess LL is right if its there it needs to be there.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not only can you over clean a barrel, you can shorten its life and completely ruin it more from over cleaning than not cleaning it.

Cleaning is over rated, don't waste your time and your money. wipe it down, clean the receiver and chamber then just knock the heavy off, the rest wants to be where it is and needs to be where it is... don't fight it or obsess over it.

If you shoot on a regular basis, use a bore snake, then about every 500 rounds or so do a quick brush down, (maybe 5 strokes), with maybe 5 patches max beyond that leave it alone. </div></div>

The best advice i have read yet. bore snakes simply work
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

I clean every hundred rounds or so unless I was in the rain or a bad dust storm. As long as accuracy is consistent, I don't worry

Break in is a different story. But After it's broken in right, cleaning is easy, and done seldomly


I think a much better topic would be, "can you hurt a barrel by NOT cleaning".
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

OK... I have read a lot on this and I have seen that every one has a differing opinion.. So here is mine, it has worked for me so far (I am less is better, I hate that nasty peel your flash off, melt you nose - cleaning stuff)

1. use a bore guide and spray <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">break free</span></span> in the barrel.. Let that sit for 5-10 mins.
2. brush with a nylon brush a few strokes.
3. using a jag send 2 dry patches down then send 1 wet one down. I do this 2 or 3 times.
4. Clean the bolt and all other parts well and call it a day.

I do only do this after a few hundred rounds and not after every outing.

Again its what has worked for me and that's that.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Seems like the benchrest crowd cleans every 20 rounds or so and long range/tactical/hunters clean less often. Keep in mind that the benchrest folks have wickedly tight chamber to cartridge tolerances. That kind of forces them to clean frequently. I think waiting 500 rounds before cleaning might be a bit much. At some point, you'd have to think the crud in the barrel starts to act like sandpaper. But, to each his own.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like the benchrest crowd cleans every 20 rounds or so and long range/tactical/hunters clean less often. Keep in mind that the benchrest folks have wickedly tight chamber to cartridge tolerances. That kind of forces them to clean frequently. I think waiting 500 rounds before cleaning might be a bit much. At some point, you'd have to think the crud in the barrel starts to act like sandpaper. But, to each his own. </div></div>

Well the nominal groove diameter in the barrel isn't going to be any different. So why not just clean the chambers more frequently rather than cramming all kinds of abrasive shit down the tube?

Ya, I can see cleaning a tight neck or no turn chamber more often but not the tube itself.

 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

They might shoot those tiny groups, out of a tube that only lasts 600 rounds. That's a lot of money on custom bbl's. Scrub your tube to death if you must.

Looks to me like Lowlight can shoot a nice group too. Or even better an accurate as hell Cold Bore Shot
laugh.gif


 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

On my factory Remington tube it seems like the groups open a little at 200+ rounds. I clean it about every 150 and don't worry about it. Yes, the horrors! It does sit in my patrol car with a fouled barrel sometimes! Clean or dirty it's still a sub-MOA rifle out to 400 yards and that is just fine. I go to schools and watch guys scrub the hell out of their rifles at lunch, in the evening, or some after every 20 rounds. I just can't see doing that with a .308.

Now in the corps we scrubbed the M40's after every trip to the range or field. SOP also said clean once each day for three days after firing. That usually meant we threw a patch down the bore and put the rifle into "self cleaning" mode while we took a nap.
wink.gif
They still shot fine.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

the guys I shoot with are getting a hell of a lot more than 600 rnd. barrel life.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They might shoot those tiny groups, out of a tube that only lasts 600 rounds. That's a lot of money on custom bbl's. Scrub your tube to death if you must.

Looks to me like Lowlight can shoot a nice group too. Or even better an accurate as hell Cold Bore Shot
laugh.gif


</div></div>
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Although I clean each time I bring the rifle home, I also think that LL has clearly demonstrated the place of cleaning in the marsmanship process. It affects accuracy and bore longevity; but it also affects the shooters confidence, and that is perhaps the greatest underestimation in what we do. If we expect failure, success is less likely, and if we expect success, it is a least possible. If we have confidence that our cleaning process is aiding our performance, it becomes one less distraction.

Greg
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

a lot of good advice given in this thread.

one needs to find what works for them somewhere between
over / excessive cleaning to seldom / never cleaning.

all depends on what your goal in shooting is.
 
Re: Can you "over clean" a barrel?

Just to beat an old horse to death I find that for frequent cleanings Hoppes No. 9 is a way to clean a barrel without paranoia that it is too agressive. Hoppes's I leave in the barrel afterwards without worry. I know it's okay becasue my deceased grandpa said it was okay. Then when I am serious about copper buidup I used Sweets oncein awhile. MP3 takes care of lead buildup, again once in awhile. I am more worried about old cleaning brushes, so I wrap the cleaning brushes with a cotton patch most of the time whle doing the above.