Can you use a AR-15 for long distance shooting Comp?

[offeringplate]

I have a Black Rain Ordnance 3G series with an 18" barrel in 556 NATO, can you do any long distance shooting with this type of AR?

I have really been interested in getting into some long range stuff.

thanks in advance

OP

 

[Ranchhand]

I can hit steel at 500m with my 12.5 ar in 556.
How far and what size target?

 

[Simonsza1]

You definitely can. If you just want to try the sport and that’s what you have go for it. Only thing on my 3 gun rifle that would quickly come into play is the max 6 power but otherwise it’s fine to shoot far. Then if you want to move into something more suited for it you’ll know what to get.

 

[Superjet]

Absolutely, I've used my SPR out to 700 with 75gr bthps with a LPVO.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I do MID RANGE, 600 yds with an AR-15.
Once I build up some confidence (this summer?)
I'll try 1000Yds. I think that's LONG RANGE.

 

[offeringplate]

thanks for the posts................ I guess my thoughts have been, 'I have a nice BRO spec rifle, should I go buy a more fitted rifle for LONG DISTANCE SHOOTING, or do what simon says and use it and see if I really like it. I just kinda wanted to talk it out.

 

[sinister]

You should do OK with Hornady 75s or Sierra 77s to around 800-850 before running out of steam (going wonky as they go trans-sonic). They'll be a little hard to hear against steel, but they'll still kill live targets.

 

[steve123]

I have a Black Rain Ordnance 3G series with an 18" barrel in 556 NATO, can you do any long distance shooting with this type of AR?

I have really been interested in getting into some long range stuff.

thanks in advance

OP

A main thing to consider is the twist rate of your barrel. Generally a 9 twist will work for up to 70gr bullets, 8 twist up to 80gr, and 7 twist the 90's.

Usually the heavier the bullet the higher the BC/ballistic coefficient. So at some point down range, in spite of a slight velocity advantage, the higher BC bullets will show less wind drift, will hit harder, and often show splash on steel or in the dirt easier.

On low wind days one can do quite well with 69's out to 600Y, 80's a bit farther, 90's a bit farther. If you are say, using 55's at longer distances, it can get frustrating. They blow in the wind a lot more and shed velocity more quickly than the heavy bullets.

A few days ago a friend and I were shooting a 223 with 85's and a 7 saum with 180's. It wasn't easy hitting the plate at 800Y with the 223 but not hard hitting it with the 7 Saum. This was due to fluctuating 9-14 mph full value winds. With the 223 we'd hit on either side of the plate as soon as the wind picked up or let off. It's no wonder F-class shooters favor 7mm's using 180gr Berger's!
If we'd tried the AR with 55's, trying to hit that same plate would have been a waste of ammo.

For long range it's high BC+high velocity=more hits, plain and simple. Especially so in field conditions without wind flags around showing a person what's going on.

 

[offeringplate]

A main thing to consider is the twist rate of your barrel. Generally a 9 twist will work for up to 70gr bullets, 8 twist up to 80gr, and 7 twist the 90's.

Usually the heavier the bullet the higher the BC/ballistic coefficient. So at some point down range, in spite of a slight velocity advantage, the higher BC bullets will show less wind drift, will hit harder, and often show splash on steel or in the dirt easier.

On low wind days one can do quite well with 69's out to 600Y, 80's a bit farther, 90's a bit farther. If you are say, using 55's at longer distances, it can get frustrating. They blow in the wind a lot more and shed velocity more quickly than the heavy bullets.

A few days ago a friend and I were shooting a 223 with 85's and a 7 saum with 180's. It wasn't easy hitting the plate at 800Y with the 223 but not hard hitting it with the 7 Saum. This was due to fluctuating 9-14 mph full value winds. With the 223 we'd hit on either side of the plate as soon as the wind picked up or let off. It's no wonder F-class shooters favor 7mm's using 180gr Berger's!
If we'd tried the AR with 55's, trying to hit that same plate would have been a waste of ammo.

For long range it's high BC+high velocity=more hits, plain and simple. Especially so in field conditions without wind flags around showing a person what's going on.

thanks Steve, I appreciate it, this is really good info and knowledge. I have an 18" 5.56 NATO 4150 CHROME MOLY BARREL 1:7 TWIST RIFLE LENGTH

 

[Lowlight]

I shot our local here with an RPR in 223 and came in 9th, didn't even complete all the stages because I left to go home early. LOL

See what you can get 69s or heavier to do and have it, you eat points all day inside 600.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I don't have experience with an 18" barrel but an 18" barrel can be competitive at 600 yards in Service Rifle competition. Their is a slight loss of velocity compared to 20". In a 20" barrel trans sonic is about 750 yards. The Quantico Marines shot the Navy Long Range Match (1K) with MK262 (77 SMK at 2750 fps) and 20" National Match Rifles. There are shooters here who shoot steel at 1K. I have shot 1 Long Range Match with the AR15. Not bad but I was very much at the mercy of the wind.

Best I can say is try it. You won't know your limit or your rifle's until you hit it. Big plus is you can build an upper with a longer barrel, 22 to 24" to push your range, and still have the 18" lower.

 

[iktomi]

I shoot 223 in comps out to 1100... and shoot that caliber almost exclusively.

To be clear, I am not competitive in these matches. I hope to get scored for 50% of the impacts of the top shooter of the day.

I often shoot in 15-25MPH winds, and my caliber selection doesn't make getting hits easier in those conditions.

I go in knowing that many spotters are unaccustomed to calling low energy impacts on steel. Mirage and targets moved by the wind is enough to disguise impact. Impacts are often identified by secondary characteristics (horizontally dispersed dust under the target).

I think I'm getting better. (My match results don't agree.)

I have a lot of fun with it.

 

[offeringplate]

I shoot 223 in comps out to 1100... and shoot that caliber almost exclusively.

To be clear, I am not competitive in these matches. I hope to get scored for 50% of the impacts of the top shooter of the day.

I often shoot in 15-25MPH winds, and my caliber selection doesn't make getting hits easier in those conditions.

I go in knowing that many spotters are unaccustomed to calling low energy impacts on steel. Mirage and targets moved by the wind is enough to disguise impact. Impacts are often identified by secondary characteristics (horizontally dispersed dust under the target).

I think I'm getting better. (My match results don't agree.)

I have a lot of fun with it.

wow, thats crazy, good for you bro, I do realize another type of rifle would bring more impacts, and distance. Are you having to do a ton of measurements and changes because of the lighter bullets and range. What optic you running on your 223?

 

[SamsonSimpson]

Go shoot and have fun. I’m running my 14.5 this year a some of my local 800yrd and in comps. Some folks say I’ll be undergunned but I’m going to make it work. It’s all about having fun.

 

[clcustom1911]

I cant wait to run my 18" Mock12 (Douglas Barrel, etc). So stoked to work up decent 69-77gr load and sling it. This will be my first "precision" AR build and I'm really curious to see how much accuracy I can wring out of the caliber. I got some wild, definitely-non-conventional ideas with my load development too which I'll document and post in the reloading area for posterity and the comments should be hilarious.

Just remember... if it sounds stupid but works, then it's not stupid

 

[NukeMMC]

As has been said, check the twist of the barrel and use a bullet weight (more correctly length) that works best in that twist. I checked their website and couldn't see any twist info. You can either call them or use the tight-patch and measure rotation vs length of cleaning rod movement method to determine twist rate.
I shot a NM service rifle back in the mid to late 90s and shot Master classification using 69gr SMKs at 200 and 300 and 80gr at 500/600. 80s are too long for mag length and can only single load. When I had John Holliger build me an upper, he used a 6.5" twist, 3 groove PacNor barrel. I could then shoot the 90gr JLK vld bullets (talk about long!) out to 1000yds ... with iron sights.

As Lowlight said, the 5.56 Ruger Precision Rifle, with its CHF 7" twist barrel, is exceedingly accurate when fed the right ammo. I shot 75 & 80gr loads 1/2moa at 300 with mine.

 

[NukeMMC]

I cant wait to run my 18" Mock12 (Douglas Barrel, etc). So stoked to work up decent 69-77gr load and sling it. This will be my first "precision" AR build and I'm really curious to see how much accuracy I can wring out of the caliber. I got some wild, definitely-non-conventional ideas with my load development too which I'll document and post in the reloading area for posterity and the comments should be hilarious.

Just remember... if it sounds stupid but works, then it's not stupid

Check with @padom But 23.5gr of xbr8208 behind 77gr SMKs seems to be the MK12 clone go-to for a standard load. Kind of like the 42gr Varget load for 308 with 175SMK.

 

[clcustom1911]

Check with @padom But 23.5gr of xbr8208 behind 77gr SMKs seems to be the MK12 clone go-to for a standard load. Kind of like the 42gr Varget load for 308 with 175SMK.

I'm definitely tracking that thread. If only 8208 could be found right now LOL. After spending hours and hours watching Johnny's Reloading Bench and his Mk262 series, I have AA2520 as my primary and some other plans for backups.

 

[Steel head]

Absolutely, I've used my SPR out to 700 with 75gr bthps with a LPVO.

Same
With 69 or 75/77’s it’s quite fun.

 

[sinister]

Don't be stuck on duplicating MK262.

The service teams had several different loads before SOCOM spec'ed a single load across the force (settling on Black Hills for the 262 standard).

Several medium burn rate powders do extremely well pushing a 77 SMK at/around 24 grains.

Reloader-15
Varget
VV N135
TAC
IMR and H 4895
23.4 of 8208

 

[Simonsza1]

Reloader 15 and 69 smk were amazing out of my 20” Wilson super sniper. Never went past 650yds with it but was very accurate. Now that same rifle is a 224 Valkyrie with Wilson barrel and jp bolt and it’s shooting factory Hornady 88eldm quite nicely.

 

[NukeMMC]

Don't be stuck on duplicating MK262.

The service teams had several different loads before SOCOM spec'ed a single load across the force (settling on Black Hills for the 262 standard).

Several medium burn rate powders do extremely well pushing a 77 SMK at/around 24 grains.

Reloader-15
Varget
VV N135
TAC
IMR and H 4895
23.4 of 8208

I know the Code 20 guy I knew at Crane told me to use TAC when we were building 77gr loads in LC 5.56 brass back in the early 2000s. He said we wouldn't get any closer to MK262 than using that. We were trying to get close to MK262 as that is what we were getting issued for NM competitions in the Navy.

 

[iktomi]

wow, thats crazy, good for you bro, I do realize another type of rifle would bring more impacts, and distance. Are you having to do a ton of measurements and changes because of the lighter bullets and range. What optic you running on your 223?

I run a March 3-24 (D24V42FIML)... usually around 14-16 power.

I shoot 69gr smks at 2885 and 77gr Nosler Match at 2730... (Proof 18")

10 MPH Cross at 800 (DA 8500)

69gr is 2.12Mil
77gr is 1.99Mil

So... yeah.

It is definitely not, "Hold left edge," wind calling.

Wind is influential enough that I really need to factor in my angles across a course of fire...

Good times (if you can live life at the bottom of the scorecard).

 

[Greedmoor]

I have a perfect 5.56 setup shooting the 85 RDF at 2580. It does noticeably better in the wind vs faster 77's, and has very good target movement and splash. It is still quite difficult compared to my 6.5 or 308 AR10's when I'm shooting in realistic wind beyond 600, since the tiny downrange fluctuations are just blowing you left or right off a C zone at 800+. It's very satisfying though, and if you have an accurate gun with the 73-85 bullets it is well worth chasing.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I have a perfect 5.56 setup shooting the 85 RDF at 2580.

Mag fed?

 

[hlee]

This year, My son and I both competed in local PRS events exclusively with a 22” 6.5 Grendel built on an anderson receiver set. Targets from 300-1100 yards, the chambering can be a limiter at the near sea level elevation of the matches. But out to 1000 (my load is uncomfortably close to trans-sonic at around 950), if you can hold it sufficiently steady, dial the dope, and call the wind, the rifle/platform is not the limiting factor. While it is true that some don’t consider 1000 yards “long range,” it is even more true that the vast majority of shots on game occur at less than 100 yards, so “long” is relative.

 

[Greedmoor]

Mag fed?

Yes, at 2.259" it appears they intended there to be no ogive-neck gap so it looks good.

 

[jrh84]

Shot this 145-9X at 900 yards in October in a Palma match. 9 of the 15 shots inside the 1 moa x-ring. It was mid/low 50's at the time.

20" service rifle, shot from a sling. White Oak button barrel, 24.2 Varget, 80 eld jumping 0.010". The 80 eld is just right for a .223 until you get into specialized chambers with long freebore. Especially in a shorter barrel. Another 10-15 degrees warmer, and it'll work at 1000 yards. In the cool, only about half my shots were still sonic at the target, and wouldn't reliably trigger the sensors.

Granted this is single feed, not magazine length. But long range IS possible with a .223.

I'm pretty proud of this string, but at the same time pretty aggravated, because I was dialed in on my wind calls (until shot 15). The points I dropped in elevation look to be due to high/low velocity, as you can see in the right column.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Yes, at 2.259" it appears they intended there to be no ogive-neck gap so it looks good.

That's irritating. I swore off RDF's for good after the 70gr, 77gr, and 105gr, but now I think I need to try the 85's.

 

[PBWalsh]

@Greedmoor

What is your barrel length for the 85 RDFs?

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

I cant wait to run my 18" Mock12 (Douglas Barrel, etc). So stoked to work up decent 69-77gr load and sling it. This will be my first "precision" AR build and I'm really curious to see how much accuracy I can wring out of the caliber. I got some wild, definitely-non-conventional ideas with my load development too which I'll document and post in the reloading area for posterity and the comments should be hilarious.

Just remember... if it sounds stupid but works, then it's not stupid

I did that a couple of years ago at a club match. I shot my mod0, and did really well. It sucked for the 800+ yard targets with 77 TMKs, but anything within that was golden.

 

[Greedmoor]

@Greedmoor

What is your barrel length for the 85 RDFs?

18” Ballistic Advantage 5.56 1/8

 

[Greedmoor]

That's irritating. I swore off RDF's for good after the 70gr, 77gr, and 105gr, but now I think I need to try the 85's.

I had horrible luck with the 70’s as well but back when I tested, I was really only using MP530. I think it needs to be tested with the powders that did best in the MK262 cloning series on Bob’s Reloading Bench YouTube channel. If it sucks with Varget though, there’s no hope.

 

[FALex]

You can use any damn rifle you like, so long as it shoots within the requisite speeds, calibers, etc...

During matches, the majority of stages are shot within 700 yards. Obviously, an 18" barreled AR isn't ideal, but if it's what you've got, develop a load and run it. I've shot many matches with dudes who were running AR's with shooter

Everyone has their bullet recommendations. I like 77's, but they don't shoot great in all of my rifles. The 69hr SMK's, however, have always performed well in every 556 rifle I own.

Regardless, get out and shoot. You'll have a blast and you'll learn a ton while not breaking the bank.

 

[offeringplate]

thanks FX, appreciate it, I believe that's what I will do, I'm tired of reminiscing over it, I think Ill get used to the 15 and make dam sure I can get comfortable with that 300-500 range with some consistency.

-OP

 

[BCP]

You can do the 600 yard line with single fed 80s like with service rifle. Just go shoot it's fun and you will get an idea for what works and doesn't.

 

[Rhed]

Was hitting targets 700-800 with my 16.5 inch 1:7 twist barrel, 77 gr Sierra tmk, consistently. Well, that’s only with 5-10 mph winds that day. Never tried any targets further.

 

[offeringplate]

View attachment 7550980
Was hitting targets 700-800 with my 16.5 inch 1:7 twist barrel, 77 gr Sierra tmk, consistently. Well, that’s only with 5-10 mph winds that day. Never tried any targets further.

nice set up, thanks for the info and pic, I have all this in the case, I think I will pull the trigger. The wind will always blow in Chicago. lol

 

[aggiez28]

what do you mean by long distance shooting?

 

[offeringplate]

500-800 yards

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I will shoot to 600yd confidently with a 223, 1:8" twist, 24".

Would still shoot it at 800, but without the solid confidence, The problem is me and the wind, not the rifle and the bullet.

For 1000yd my current rifle is a 24", 1:10" twist 308 Savage bolt gun.

For 1000yd and further, my LR/ELR rifle is a 28", 1:8" twist 260, Savage bolt gun.

But honestly, my interest in LR, and maybe in a hefty rifle collection, could be waning. I have already parted with a couple of non-competitive rifles.

The problem is politics, not ballistics.

Greg

 

[sheepdog697]

Absolutely, some of the comps by me are only 600yds.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

One factor folks may not be considering is altitude.

I reside at 4350ft altitude, and that does some significant things to Effective BC. Air density up here is only 85% of sea level. That can push the transsonic distance quite a bit further out, and reduce drop and drift noticeably.

The difference is in the Time of Flight.

Higher up, due to less air resistance, the bullet arrives sooner; having therefore less time to drop and drift, while retaining velocity better as the distances extend. For my purposes, it allows me to use a lighter/shorter bullet, and drive it a bit faster than the heavier one, while still keeping above 1300fps a bit further out. IMHO, I choose to consider the entry velocity into transsonic velocity zone as being 1300fps.

NRA rules I've competed under call LR 1000yd, and MR 600yd. My AR's for MR are factory Stag 24" guns; I have an identical pair of these for informal private competition, and am extremely pleased with their accuracy.

At my altitude, my 75gr HDY HPBT Match load may be worth a try at 1000yd. While BC is factory listed at .395; reliably verified data may put it at nearer to .350.

That's another altitude issue, since any BC value BC is only valid at a specified altitude, and Effective BC will vary with altitude as it changes, BC data without a corresponding altitude is incomplete data.

My load is Starline Brass, HDY 75gr, CCI BR-4, and 23.5gr of Varget, loaded to an arbitrary magazine length of 2.250". I consider this as a generic load for the 75, using is in 24" Bolt (1:9") and AR 1:8"), as well as 16" 1:7" AR.

Greg

 

[offeringplate]

One factor folks may not be considering is altitude.

I reside at 4350ft altitude, and that does some significant things to Effective BC. Air density up here is only 85% of sea level. That can push the transsonic distance quite a bit further out, and reduce drop and drift noticeably.

The difference is in the Time of Flight.

Higher up, due to less air resistance, the bullet arrives sooner; having therefore less time to drop and drift, while retaining velocity better as the distances extend. For my purposes, it allows me to use a lighter/shorter bullet, and drive it a bit faster than the heavier one, while still keeping above 1300fps a bit further out. IMHO, I choose to consider the entry velocity into transsonic velocity zone as being 1300fps.

NRA rules I've competed under call LR 1000yd, and MR 600yd. My AR's for MR are factory Stag 24" guns; I have an identical pair of these for informal private competition, and am extremely pleased with their accuracy.

At my altitude, my 75gr HDY HPBT Match load may be worth a try at 1000yd. While BC is factory listed at .395; reliably verified data may put it at nearer to .350.

That's another altitude issue, since any BC value BC is only valid at a specified altitude, and Effective BC will vary with altitude as it changes, BC data without a corresponding altitude is incomplete data.

My load is Starline Brass, HDY 75gr, CCI BR-4, and 23.5gr of Varget, loaded to an arbitrary magazine length of 2.250". I consider this as a generic load for the 75, using is in 24" Bolt (1:9") and AR 1:8"), as well as 16" 1:7" AR.

Greg

Greg,
thanks for some clarification and confidence here, I appreciate it. My altitude is a mere 710ft, so thats a huge difference adding another 3600ft in air density. 600--1000 yard shot would take some calculation, little to know wind and some steady hands. Do we see many guys using these at any type of long distance competition?

-OP

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When I was shooting 1000yd back in NY/PA, I never gave a thought to altitude. I would SWAG estimate the altitude I was shooting at as 800ft. I used my 28", 260 Rem for that exclusively. It was capable of shooting some strings of consecutive X's (but never ten in a row...),. My MV was right around 2850 with the 140/142's (this was before the ELD's). I did not have a 308 set up for LR before I moved here to AZ. I have a PSA-10 308 20" and a Savage 11VT 24", and nearly never get to shoot them that far these days. Oh, well...

The answer to your question is to get out there and do it. Find your peak performance, then you decide whether more gun is needed. My own 223/75g load is pretty much an average of what the experienced shooters were loading, no real secrets here. If you do this, I think you're going to have much fun, especially as the velocities out there start approaching subsonic. You're going to need to learn about wind and extremes, and I think you'll learn plenty doing this.

IMHO, it's not a question of low altitude hampering your performance, but of higher altitudes helping. I think of higher altitude as Red Bull for Bullets... When I was going slowly nuts trying to figure out how to afford an AR in 260, I stopped and realized that at 4350ft, the 6.5 Grendel was actually a respectable 6.5 cartridge. I know own two 6.5 Grendels; a factory 20", and a home built 24".

Fare well.

Greg

 

[Big Moose]

If you run a 6.5 Grendel, or even better something like a 6mm Turbo 40 Improved you can be quite competitive passed 1000 yds with an AR15. I sometimes run a 6.5 Grendel 22 inch barreled JP rifle in PRS matches. I used to fair quite well in matches in PA out to 1100 yds.