Cannot hit steel at 300 yards...

[grego88]

Hello all.

I have a Remington 700 Varmint in .308 that I have been working a load up for. So far, the best load I have worked up is 45.5 gr of Varget and Hornady 168 gr match bullets in Winchester brass. Using this recipe, I can consistently achieve sub MOA groups at 100 yards.

Anyway, using this load I went to the range thinking I was going to be able to hammer steel at 300 and 500 yard lines all day long...think again. Every single shot I took at the 300 yard steel missed. Frustrated, I set a paper target up at 100 to see where I was. Four shot group about .75 MOA an inch below the center (windage spot on). I go up four clicks (1 click = .25" @ 100 yds). I shoot a round and hits dead center. Shoot another and keyholed the first. So 100 yds is good.

Using the MOAR reticle in my Nightforce NXS, I go up 3 MOA (using the reticle itself, not touching the turrets) on the 8 inch steel plate at 300. I shoot and nothing. Shoot again, and nothing. Not even an impact that I could see anywhere around the plate. I had someone else spot for me and they couldn't tell anything either.

What am I missing? I thought it was me, until I got my Garand out and hit the 300 yard plate first shot with iron sights. I feel like my load is about the best I can get without changing something drastic like bullet weight or powder type (not to mention this is the best combo I have tried so far). Anyone else experianced something like this? Was it you, the rifle, or your handloads? I just dont see how it would be that far off at 300 (8 inch steel plate!) unless I'm just not using my reticle correctly...

 

[Kbroad]

Any idea of what kind of velocity you are getting?

 

[Mblackmon4]

Just a thought but are you able to put up paper targets at intervals? I’d shooting 3 shots at 100,150,200,250,&300 don’t hold over on the reticle that way you can see if you might have been holding over wrong or something simple as well as get dope. Heck a big piece of cardboard with dot on it would work. Aim for the center (or dot) with the center of the reticle. That should give you an idea on how and where bullets are hitting. I had a Remington 223 that would that. Great .75-1” groups at 100 but come to find out the bullet would start tumbling somewhere around 160yds and you could see on paper how they were going in sideways

 

[Tnc]

Is the nightforce second focal plane? If so, did you have the magnification maxed out? If not maxed out on sfp your reticle is not accurate. Easy thing to do. If say max is 22x. If your on 11x, each moa on the reticle is actually 2 moa. You could be holding 6 moa instead of the 3 you intended

 

[ShtrRdy]

From my ballistic calculator it looks like I would need 4.25 moa

 

[Kbroad]

From my ballistic calculator it looks like I would need 4.25 moa

Same

 

[Blowby]

He said his hold over was 3 moa above which is not enough. If your at 2750 MV with a 140 gr A-max you will be around 4 moa. So with a 168 you might be 2670 MV or so. Hold over is more like 4.2-4 moa I would guess.

 

[Long Range 338]

It does sound like your scope is 2nd focal plane and you need to verify the magnification setting at which your reticle is accurate (should be 22x as stated above). Also you are going to need a good muzzle velocity to use a ballistic app, or you need to shoot on paper at distance to verify your drop and then extrapolate the velocity that way. I would recommend dialing the drop on your turrets and going that route to verify your drops and then you can use your reticle after you have gathered your dope.

 

[grego88]

Any idea of what kind of velocity you are getting?

No, I dont have a chronograph. It is on my list of things I need.

Just a thought but are you able to put up paper targets at intervals? I’d shooting 3 shots at 100,150,200,250,&300 don’t hold over on the reticle that way you can see if you might have been holding over wrong or something simple as well as get dope. Heck a big piece of cardboard with dot on it would work. Aim for the center (or dot) with the center of the reticle. That should give you an idea on how and where bullets are hitting. I had a Remington 223 that would that. Great .75-1” groups at 100 but come to find out the bullet would start tumbling somewhere around 160yds and you could see on paper how they were going in sideways

Yes, I will do that the next time I go out. I dont know why I didn't do that today...

Is the nightforce second focal plane? If so, did you have the magnification maxed out? If not maxed out on sfp your reticle is not accurate. Easy thing to do. If say max is 22x. If your on 11x, each moa on the reticle is actually 2 moa. You could be holding 6 moa instead of the 3 you intended

It is SFP, and no...after I read your post I checked the scope and I was at the wrong magnification the whole time...looks like you may have found the answer to my problems.

It does sound like your scope is 2nd focal plane and you need to verify the magnification setting at which your reticle is accurate (should be 22x as stated above). Also you are going to need a good muzzle velocity to use a ballistic app, or you need to shoot on paper at distance to verify your drop and then extrapolate the velocity that way. I would recommend dialing the drop on your turrets and going that route to verify your drops and then you can use your reticle after you have gathered your dope.

My scope actually has an "R" (for "ranging") printed on the magnification dial. I was not lined up with the "R" and was zoomed much further out. Looks like I have some more shooting and math to do to figure out my drop. There are a lot of ballistics apps...which one do you recommend?

Thanks everyone for the quick replies. You guys are awesome.

 

[Long Range 338]

There are a lot of ballistics apps...which one do you recommend?

You are using Hornady bullets so you could start with the Hornady 4DOF app, and its free so nothing lost. If you want something different Trasol is great as well as BallisticsARC, Applied Ballistics, Ballistic AE, and others. Head over to the Ballistic Calculators part of the forums and get more advice there if you like.

 

[grego88]

You are using Hornady bullets so you could start with the Hornady 4DOF app, and its free so nothing lost. If you want something different Trasol is great as well as BallisticsARC, Applied Ballistics, Ballistic AE, and others. Head over to the Ballistic Calculators part of the forums and get more advice there if you like.

Thank you.

 

[jljr23]

Try shooting on large piece of paper at that distance to see POA. Have you chronographed your load? Doing that alone and have that data is invaluable.

 

[grego88]

Try shooting on large piece of paper at that distance to see POA. Have you chronographed your load? Doing that alone and have that data is invaluable.

No, I do not have a chronograph. I have been putting off buying one (too many expensive hobbies, trying to cut back and save a little) but after this I'm definately going to buy one so that I can start calculating bullet drop easier (and more accurately). Looking at the Magnetospeed Sporter.

 

[TheGerman]

No, I dont have a chronograph. It is on my list of things I need.

It's your velocity plain and simple.

Borrow someone's chrono; anything else at this point will be guesswork that you will repeat every time you change target distance.

 

[XLR308]

No, I dont have a chronograph. It is on my list of things I need.

It's your velocity plain and simple.

Borrow someone's chrono; anything else at this point will be guesswork that you will repeat every time you change target distance.

Best advise, the first time I shot my 308 at 600 yards I was within a few inches and making first round hits on a 6" plate based on velocity data obtained from load development input into Ballistic AE program and refined from there.

 

[Long Range 338]

I see you are in SoCal. There are lots of guys on here from your area I believe. Go to the new member section and see if you can shoot with somebody with LR experience, it will jumpstart the whole process.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Sounds like you have found the problem or at least have a solution in checking your magnification. As stated above, an SFP scope reticle/graduations are only accurate/correct at one magnification.

You need about 4.2 MOA and you might try dialing it in and holding dead on. I had the same problem you are having my first couple times out pushing the range and solved my issue by calculating bullet drop with Strelok and factory ammunition velocities and dialing it in....I was within 1/2" at 300 yards.

VooDoo

 

[jljr23]

No, I do not have a chronograph. I have been putting off buying one (too many expensive hobbies, trying to cut back and save a little) but after this I'm definately going to buy one so that I can start calculating bullet drop easier (and more accurately). Looking at the Magnetospeed Sporter.

I had the magnetospeed chrono and it works great. Portable setup and very accurate. You won't be disappointed by it. In the meantime, not sure if you shoot at a gun club but you might find someone who will let you do a quick chrono.

I've got a lab radar now and have chrono'd for a few people when they were having issues with shooting at distance and dialing. You'd be surprised how much people are willing to help if you talk to them for a bit.

 

[Covertnoob5]

@grego88

Where in SoCal are you? I shoot at Angeles for the most part. Your problem is definitely that you’re trying hold overs on a SFP scope when you’re not on the required mag. Other than that I’m happy to help with my magneto and shooting in general.

 

[grego88]

I see you are in SoCal. There are lots of guys on here from your area I believe. Go to the new member section and see if you can shoot with somebody with LR experience, it will jumpstart the whole process.

@grego88

Where in SoCal are you? I shoot at Angeles for the most part. Your problem is definitely that you’re trying hold overs on a SFP scope when you’re not on the required mag. Other than that I’m happy to help with my magneto and shooting in general.

I'm no longer in SoCal. Left there in 2014 and am now in North Carolina. I was living in SoCal back when I created my account here.

 

[plidenbrock]

Is the nightforce second focal plane? If so, did you have the magnification maxed out? If not maxed out on sfp your reticle is not accurate. Easy thing to do. If say max is 22x. If your on 11x, each moa on the reticle is actually 2 moa. You could be holding 6 moa instead of the 3 you intended

Very nice catch!

 

[JMGlasgow]

I bought a Nikon scope a few years ago that was good at 50 and 100 yards but when I zoomed up to 9 power, it wouldn't hit anything. Sent it back to Nikon and they said there was a problem with the glass alignment inside. I won't even try to recall the techno garble they labeled it with, but ya, the scope was changing zero as I zoomed in.

All SFP scopes will change zero slightly when changing the magnification from minimum to maximum. How much it changes should be verified, and is also dependent on how much care was taken during assembly to center the reticle.

 

[JMGlasgow]

By changing slightly I meant less than 1/4" at 100yds.

Your scope clearly had a problem.

FFP scopes don't change zero when changing magnification because the reticle is in front of the erector lenses and is magnified with the image.

 

[JA Thacker]

I'm no longer in SoCal. Left there in 2014 and am now in North Carolina. I was living in SoCal back when I created my account here.

Where are you shooting at in NC?

 

[grego88]

Where are you shooting at in NC?

Eastern NC. Jacksonville (Flatwoods) and sometimes Havelock (SureShot).

 

[JA Thacker]

Eastern NC. Jacksonville (Flatwoods) and sometimes Havelock (SureShot).

Ah! I have family in Hubert and Swansboro. I need to find someplace local to shoot now that I don't have access to Stone Bay.

 

[grego88]

Ah! I have family in Hubert and Swansboro. I need to find someplace local to shoot now that I don't have access to Stone Bay.

By Stone Bay I'm assuming you mean Camp Lejeune. Do/did they allow the public to use their ranges? I know Quantico and Camp Pendleton open up their ranges on the weekends to the public...just gotta be a member. That would be awesome if Lejeune did the same.

Yesterday was my first day shooting at the range in Havelock. It's a drive but worth it. The rifle side goes out to 500 yards which is awesome. I'll probably never go to Flatwoods again.

 

[JA Thacker]

By Stone Bay I'm assuming you mean Camp Lejeune. Do/did they allow the public to use their ranges? I know Quantico and Camp Pendleton open up their ranges on the weekends to the public...just gotta be a member. That would be awesome if Lejeune did the same.

Yesterday was my first day shooting at the range in Havelock. It's a drive but worth it. The rifle side goes out to 500 yards which is awesome. I'll probably never go to Flatwoods again.

I'm not sure if they allow public's access or not. I had access to it for training while I was at Bragg. I'm down in that area a few times per year to visit my Mom but haven't brought my rifles because I wasn't sure of what ranges were accessable near Hubert.

 

[grego88]

I'm not sure if they allow public's access or not. I had access to it for training while I was at Bragg. I'm down in that area a few times per year to visit my Mom but haven't brought my rifles because I wasn't sure of what ranges were accessable near Hubert.

Flatwoods, SureShot and B&R Guns are the three rifle ranges that I know of. There are some indoor ranges as well.

 

[JA Thacker]

Flatwoods, SureShot and B&R Guns are the three rifle ranges that I know of. There are some indoor ranges as well.

Just looked at SureShot. It doesn't look too bad for just a $15 fee.

 

[supercorndogs]

He said his hold over was 3 moa above which is not enough. If your at 2750 MV with a 140 gr A-max you will be around 4 moa. So with a 168 you might be 2670 MV or so. Hold over is more like 4.2-4 moa I would guess.

45.5 of varget in win brass with a 168 I would guess close to 2800. I want to say 46 was 2830 or 2850 in mine. Sorry its been a long time since I shot out my 700 varmint .308 or used win brass.

 

[RTH1800]

I did not read all the post. From the first post the problem is clearly your data. You are likely getting a great group just not on the target.

No idea why this is. You are also likely shooting over. Under and you would see impacts. Do you hear the bullet sailing off or impacting?

If you find no other option, walk the bullet out. Set up a target at 150 yards, get on it. Check data, move and repeat.

Also, for the most unpopular thought on the site, "banging steel" is a complete waste of time. Shoot targets. If you need large ones, get large ones, make notes on them and take them home with you to study. If you get some markers and color your bullets they will leave colored holes so you can determine your impacts without seeing them each shot. Say shoot red ones, make changes if need and shoot black ones etc. Make notes as to what you are doing. Take target home and study it and make more notes on the actual target.

 

[Olen_4504]

I did not read all the post. From the first post the problem is clearly your data. You are likely getting a great group just not on the target.

No idea why this is. You are also likely shooting over. Under and you would see impacts. Do you hear the bullet sailing off or impacting?

If you find no other option, walk the bullet out. Set up a target at 150 yards, get on it. Check data, move and repeat.

Also, for the most unpopular thought on the site, "banging steel" is a complete waste of time. Shoot targets. If you need large ones, get large ones, make notes on them and take them home with you to study. If you get some markers and color your bullets they will leave colored holes so you can determine your impacts without seeing them each shot. Say shoot red ones, make changes if need and shoot black ones etc. Make notes as to what you are doing. Take target home and study it and make more notes on the actual target.

LOLOLOL maybe you should have read the post and the rest of the thread. because they pin pointed the issue

 

[RTH1800]

LOLOLOL maybe you should have read the post and the rest of the thread. because they pin pointed the issue

Of course it was data or improper utilization of it, just as I stated. I gave him some good advice for a guy who does not own a spotter or chrono. Hope he finds it helpful.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Go back to your 100yd scope adjustment, verify it's dead-on target at 100yd, and then fire it with that dope at 300yd.

Your impacts should be centered somewhere around 8" to 10" low. If not, the velocity is questionable; but with that load, your should be doing pretty much the same trajectory as my M-14 in Parris Island back n 1966.

We were taught to adjust our sights up one MOA going from 100yd to 200yd, and up two more MOA going from 200 to 300, for a total of 3MOA up from 100yd to 300yd adjustment; BTW, same for the Garand.

Greg

 

[JA Thacker]

Of course it was data or improper utilization of it, just as I stated. I gave him some good advice for a guy who does not own a spotter or chrono. Hope he finds it helpful.

Naw it was the improper use of a SFP scope. Wasn't at the proper magnification for using the reticle for holdovers.

 

[Blowby]

45.5 of varget in win brass with a 168 I would guess close to 2800. I want to say 46 was 2830 or 2850 in mine. Sorry its been a long time since I shot out my 700 varmint .308 or used win brass.

Sorry I missed it. Thats a lot of Varget!!!!

 

[shooter98]

I have had the pss for roughly 5 years and have never been able to get the rifle to shoot accurately, period. I’ve loaded hundreds of loads and bought hundreds of factory loads and still cannot get it to shoot. That gun hasn’t left the shelf now in almost two years.

 

[RTH1800]

Naw it was the improper use of a SFP scope. Wasn't at the proper magnification for using the reticle for holdovers.

That falls under bad data or improper use of data. If you have trouble understanding that it translates to holding in the wrong fucking place. You can dial the wrong data, you can hold the wrong data, or just aim at the wrong place. It all works the same.

 

[supercorndogs]

Sorry I missed it. Thats a lot of Varget!!!!

In Lapua or LC brass it is. Win has a little more capacity. Still a pretty hot load in Win though.

 

[grego88]

I did not read all the post. From the first post the problem is clearly your data. You are likely getting a great group just not on the target.

No idea why this is. You are also likely shooting over. Under and you would see impacts. Do you hear the bullet sailing off or impacting?

If you find no other option, walk the bullet out. Set up a target at 150 yards, get on it. Check data, move and repeat.

Also, for the most unpopular thought on the site, "banging steel" is a complete waste of time. Shoot targets. If you need large ones, get large ones, make notes on them and take them home with you to study. If you get some markers and color your bullets they will leave colored holes so you can determine your impacts without seeing them each shot. Say shoot red ones, make changes if need and shoot black ones etc. Make notes as to what you are doing. Take target home and study it and make more notes on the actual target.

Rounds were definately over... no sight of an impact and bullets were definately sailing off. Which makes sense...since I was at a lower magnification setting than I should have been, my 3 MOA holds would have been far above what I was intending.

As for shooting steel, to each his own. I've shot more paper than anything else. I use nothing but paper when developing loads (Takes me multiple range outings). After I think I have a load developed I'll mix it up a bit from time to time with regards to what I shoot.

Thinking about going back to the drawing board to test 175 gr Hornadys (not because of this incident, been planning on it for a while now). Thanks for your tip about the markers...I'll use that when developing my new load.

Sorry I missed it. Thats a lot of Varget!!!!

In Lapua or LC brass it is. Win has a little more capacity. Still a pretty hot load in Win though.

It is definately one of the more hotter loads I shoot, but over pressure signs seem to be negligable. Dont intend to load it any hotter though...

 

[ubettcha]

SFP will change point of impact from low to high power. It is a fixed distance as the lenses move in and out. My nightforce moves 1moa up and 1/2 moa left from bottom to top. Doesn't matter who makes the optic it will change. If your going to shoot @ different powers often make sure you put that in your dope. If you go to a match and decide to shoot with the reticle and your at 1/2 the power so your hash marks are double you have to account for the zero shift in a sfp scope. The higher the zoom ratio the more the shift. Less expensive optics tend to shift more even with lower zoom ratios