Suppressors Cannot reach FFL regarding my suppressors.....

[jl3216]

I bought two suppressors about 18 months ago, submitted the paperwork (pictures, prints, money, etc.) through my dealer. The dealer has since sold the business and the new owners state that CANNOT help me, that I must work through the previous owner. The new owners claim my two suppressors are locked securely in their safe, which I have no reason to doubt. I've tried calling the original owner, texted him, sent facebook messages, etc., with no luck.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to get these out of jail?? I appreciate any help or suggestions!

 

[sea2summit]

Call the ATF first and see what the status of the stamps is?

 

[jl3216]

I've done that and was informed there were errors on both applications. They contacted the dealer, then issued a refund. I guess I'll call ATF again and hopefully get someone that can help.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Never i repeat never allow the FFL to submit paper work.
95% of all horror stories involve the dealer being a fuck-up.

 

[jl3216]

Yes sir, I have learned that the hard way! I bought two suppressors from this dealer a few years ago and had NO issues at all. I gained approval in about 10 months. Once I get these out of ATF jail, I'll certainly do things different in the future.

 

[Thereaper1313]

When he closed his shop he probably transferred them to another SOT or kept them upon closure. Either way they're gone, you will need to take a legal suit out against him. If you saved the receipts and serial number from the form4 you shouldn't have any trouble with a suit.

 

[BBVDD]

What do you know about the purchase of the dealer? If the purchasers bought the FFL (I don’t know if that’s possible) then I’d think they are responsible.

 

[jl3216]

The new owners have been very direct that they CANNOT help me. They insist my suppressors are in their safe, they can lay hands on them, but they cannot help. Per several conversations with the new owners, I must deal with the previous owner since he started the process.

 

[respiegel]

What do you know about the purchase of the dealer? If the purchasers bought the FFL (I don’t know if that’s possible) then I’d think they are responsible.

If the Form 4s were rejected those cans would be on Form 3s in inventory, when the business was sold they would be included in the sale. Without any encumbrance against them, i.e a pending Form 4, the new owners own those cans as part of the acquisition. The previous owner is the one who had the money and failed to contact the buyer and get is sorted properly prior to the sale.
I just don't think anybody can reasonably expect the new owners to hand over several hundred dollars in inventory as a gesture of goodwill when they have no liability.
One thing that might help in a civil case is a copy of the sales contract, the new owners might be willing to help you with that even if it is just to get you barking up the correct tree

 

[Thereaper1313]

The new owners are giving you the run around. If they purchased the company(LLC/Corp) then they have the legal responsibility to fulfil prior orders. Do you have receipts of sale? A receipt with a copy of your form 4(which will have the same llc as new owners) should be pretty persuasive. I would contact your local police department or attorney general for information.

 

[Thereaper1313]

The new owners are giving you the run around. If they purchased the company(LLC/Corp) then they have the legal responsibility to fulfil prior orders. Do you have receipts of sale? A receipt with a copy of your form 4(which will have the same llc as new owners) should be pretty persuasive. I would contact your local police department or attorney general for information.

Fyi Im not talking out of my ass. Im a FFL/sot as well

 

[respiegel]

The new owners are giving you the run around. If they purchased the company(LLC/Corp) then they have the legal responsibility to fulfil prior orders. Do you have receipts of sale? A receipt with a copy of your form 4(which will have the same llc as new owners) should be pretty persuasive. I would contact your local police department or attorney general for information.

I agree they have a responsibility to fulfill any prior orders on the books, i.e. pending Form 4s, but what is looks like happened is that order was canceled by the ATF and cash returned to the previous owner. Any and all outstanding liabilities would have to be documented on the sales contract, if the previous owner kept the cash and the suppressors in question were bought by the new entity as part of the sale, then the previous owner simply stole OPs cash and the new owners have nothing to do with that and would rightly direct OP to seek out the pervious owner.
Is it possible to take it to court and maybe get a favorable judgement? Yes. Would the cost greatly exceed the cost of buying new suppressors? Also yes.

 

[jl3216]

Thank you Gentlemen! I do have receipts and copies of checks, etc. I'll contact the new owners one more time and go from there. Hopefully we can find resolution without a suit.

 

[respiegel]

Thank you Gentlemen! I do have receipts and copies of checks, etc. I'll contact the new owners one more time and go from there. Hopefully we can find resolution without a suit.

Have you contacted your state's unclaimed cash department? I know (at least in Alabama) debtors can send the money to the state if they have trouble contacting owner and the state will hang on to the money until claimed, that allows for easy closing of books without alot of legwork. Maybe the original owner cashed out and just wrote one last check before closing the books. Worth the online search at least.

 

[HansohnBrothers]

The new owners are giving you the run around. If they purchased the company(LLC/Corp) then they have the legal responsibility to fulfil prior orders. Do you have receipts of sale? A receipt with a copy of your form 4(which will have the same llc as new owners) should be pretty persuasive. I would contact your local police department or attorney general for information.

There could be issues if they let the license lapse and had to get a new one. But yeah, I'd demand a refund or have the form 4s submitted.

 

[HansohnBrothers]

Never i repeat never allow the FFL to submit paper work.
95% of all horror stories involve the dealer being a fuck-up.

LOL. We don't let the customers do their own paperwork anymore since all errors were attributed to a mistake they made. We also had customers that never submitted the form 4s... after 5+ years.

 

[PamunkeyHub]

LOL. We don't let the customers do their own paperwork anymore since all errors were attributed to a mistake they made. We also had customers that never submitted the form 4s... after 5+ years.

Y'all are a step above the average FFL/SOT, though.

 

[2ndamendfan]

LOL. We don't let the customers do their own paperwork anymore since all errors were attributed to a mistake they made. We also had customers that never submitted the form 4s... after 5+ years.

Like said above, you are not average.

All the one's I have done went without a hitch. The one Ephing time I let an FFL do it was almost a 3 year ordeal. 3 SBRs (go big or go home right). After almost 2 1/2 years I said FUCK YOU. Took possession of my parts, and a thumb drive of my Forms, when the first E-file system was up and running. They claimed they could never get the files to upload due to size .

With in 24hrs I had them resized and submitted. (which they said was in-ephing-possible) 6ish months later 2 approved, 1 denied. Reason for denial, the name of my trust was spelled wrong. Holy fuck I was pissed. The FFL claimed I did it and would not refund my $200. I talked to the examiner, explaining everything. He let me fix it, resubmit, pay the $200 again and he had me approved in less than 10 days.

Right then is when I figured out the ATF is used as a scape goat for FFL's fuck ups. Men and Women I have dealt with at ATF have been nothing but professional. (not that I am in love with the agency itself of course.)

 

[HansohnBrothers]

Like said above, you are not average.

All the one's I have done went without a hitch. The one Ephing time I let an FFL do it was almost a 3 year ordeal. 3 SBRs (go big or go home right). After almost 2 1/2 years I said FUCK YOU. Took possession of my parts, and a thumb drive of my Forms, when the first E-file system was up and running. They claimed they could never get the files to upload due to size .

With in 24hrs I had them resized and submitted. (which they said was in-ephing-possible) 6ish months later 2 approved, 1 denied. Reason for denial, the name of my trust was spelled wrong. Holy fuck I was pissed. The FFL claimed I did it and would not refund my $200. I talked to the examiner, explaining everything. He let me fix it, resubmit, pay the $200 again and he had me approved in less than 10 days.

Right then is when I figured out the ATF is used as a scape goat for FFL's fuck ups. Men and Women I have dealt with at ATF have been nothing but professional. (not that I am in love with the agency itself of course.)

You do make a very valid point and is why we made NFA our focus: because other dealers in the area were dropping the ball so to speak. You are absolutely correct, ATF is used as a scapegoat by dealers. Every interaction we have with NFA Division is professional and issues are resolved quickly. Not saying we don't fuck up, we have, but we owned our mistakes and did our best to make things right.

 

[chrome]

You do make a very valid point and is why we made NFA our focus: because other dealers in the area were dropping the ball so to speak. You are absolutely correct, ATF is used as a scapegoat by dealers. Every interaction we have with NFA Division is professional and issues are resolved quickly. Not saying we don't fuck up, we have, but we owned our mistakes and did our best to make things right.

I had no idea you guys were in VA. Wish I would have known that, because your sentiment above is 200% fucking correct about some of the mouth breathing FFL/SOTs here in NoVA

 

[W54/XM-388]

Problem my friend and I seem to have (after finally getting our suppressors after the FFL went bust) is nobody around here selling the suppressors we want (OSS/Rugged), seems all that interested in actually completing the sale, it's all about, we'll call you back... okay well sure...

It seems you have to catch them with the suppressors in hand on a day they feel good and buy them on the spot without asking questions or they couldn't be bothered to take your money.

 

[Carnifex]

I had no idea you guys were in VA. Wish I would have known that, because your sentiment above is 200% fucking correct about some of the mouth breathing FFL/SOTs here in NoVA

And thats why I'm doing my supressor purchases through Hansohn. They're a couple hour drive from me but I'd much rather deal with them than any of the NoVA dealers.

 

[Supersubes]

Thank you Gentlemen! I do have receipts and copies of checks, etc. I'll contact the new owners one more time and go from there. Hopefully we can find resolution without a suit.

What did the current owner say exactly? Seems like maybe you weren’t picking up on what was being conveyed.

When you paid for those cans, you became the owner of them. You can’t possess them yet, but they’re yours. If the form 4 is rejected, and the taxes were refunded, the previous owner owes you the taxes, but the cans are still yours. If the cans were sold to the new owners as inventory with the sale of the business, the real beef is between the new owner and the previous owner, because the previous owner can’t sell something that didn’t belong to him(he was just babysitting). Even if the new owners are operating under their own (new/different) FFL/SOT, that doesn’t change ownership, just possession. You still own them. I suppose it’s possible that the previous owners ffl/sot is still active for that premises, but if they’re in the new owners safe(possession by the new owner), that would indicate that the new owner is a “responsible person” on the previous owners license, and the “we cannot help you” is just complete bullshit.

 

[respiegel]

What did the current owner say exactly? Seems like maybe you weren’t picking up on what was being conveyed.

When you paid for those cans, you became the owner of them. You can’t possess them yet, but they’re yours. If the form 4 is rejected, and the taxes were refunded, the previous owner owes you the taxes, but the cans are still yours. If the cans were sold to the new owners as inventory with the sale of the business, the real beef is between the new owner and the previous owner, because the previous owner can’t sell something that didn’t belong to him(he was just babysitting). Even if the new owners are operating under their own (new/different) FFL/SOT, that doesn’t change ownership, just possession. You still own them. I suppose it’s possible that the previous owners ffl/sot is still active for that premises, but if they’re in the new owners safe(possession by the new owner), that would indicate that the new owner is a “responsible person” on the previous owners license, and the “we cannot help you” is just complete bullshit.

While that is true, the burden of proof is on the OP. While he can show that he paid for the cans he can't show conclusively that he wasn't refunded from the previous owner. OP would have to show there was a criminal act that defrauded him of his money/property, even then the new owners would claim that once the Form 4s were rejected (who cares why) OP was ineligible to receive the items paid for and was due a refund by the previous owner. Maybe the original owner posted notice for a month in the church bulletin, but OP only goes to the morning service... things like that happen, and getting the specifics of the sale/transfer of the assets in question between the new and the old owners is the only way OP is going to have any chance of getting the property he paid for or compensation back. The new owners have possession of the items in question and the latest paperwork that says they own them, trying to take them to court is going to be a very expensive legal battle given what lawyers charge per hour in the discovery phase, so keeping the new owners on OPs side is really an investment at this point.

 

[FCS]

There is a paper trail @ ATF-NFA for that brand & SN.
Get the info from NFA, explain what is going on and have them dig into status. ATF-NFA knows where can is or should be per paperwork.
Refunded $200 tax stamp fee? Possible but highly unlikely. Somebody is lying as that fee is paid by transferee so it would have gone back to OP / transferee.
ATF-NFA branch has always been pretty helpful when I’ve talked to them. Yes, it is going to take time and effort, being frustrating to track down.
Work through ATF-NFA, find out where they think can is, explain to them situation and they’ll work with you. “Work with you” might be a little optimistic. You can find out what FFL / SOT holds can, status of your form 4 and if a refund was issued.
ATF-NFA will be interested in if cans are not where supposed to be.
ATF-NFA has final say in if cans move or not. Best interest of new FFL / SOT to work with you as they might not like being in possession of a can they don’t have proper paper work for.
Play stupid games, win stupid prize.

 

[FCS]

While that is true, the burden of proof is on the OP. While he can show that he paid for the cans he can't show conclusively that he wasn't refunded from the previous owner. OP would have to show there was a criminal act that defrauded him of his money/property, even then the new owners would claim that once the Form 4s were rejected (who cares why) OP was ineligible to receive the items paid for and was due a refund by the previous owner. Maybe the original owner posted notice for a month in the church bulletin, but OP only goes to the morning service... things like that happen, and getting the specifics of the sale/transfer of the assets in question between the new and the old owners is the only way OP is going to have any chance of getting the property he paid for or compensation back. The new owners have possession of the items in question and the latest paperwork that says they own them, trying to take them to court is going to be a very expensive legal battle given what lawyers charge per hour in the discovery phase, so keeping the new owners on OPs side is really an investment at this point.

In short, this is utter BS when dealing with an NFA item.
There is a very specific paper trail and ownership doesn’t just “change” unless ATF-NFA approves it.

 

[hlee]

I’m really surprised it took 24 replies for someone to say “talk to the atf...”

 

[respiegel]

In short, this is utter BS when dealing with an NFA item.
There is a very specific paper trail and ownership doesn’t just “change” unless ATF-NFA approves it.

Yes, there is a paper trail, it was Form 3'd to the original owner, OP attempted to Form 4 it, which was rejected. So it remains on the books of the original owner, until at some point, the new owners took possession of it whether they took over the business whole or it was Form 3'd to the new FFL/SOT. Either way the new owners have an NFA paper trail that says that the items in question are theirs and are suggesting OP take up his desire for a refund with the original owner.

 

[respiegel]

I’m really surprised it took 24 replies for someone to say “talk to the atf...”

Talk to the ATF about what? Where they mailed the refund check? OP doesn't have a tax stamp

 

[hlee]

Talk to the ATF about what? Where they mailed the refund check? OP doesn't have a tax stamp

But, as mentioned above, there is a paper trail, and it exists at the atf. Both of the FFLs in this story sound like fuck ups. I wouldn’t take their word for shit. Is the ffl licensee that currently holds the suppressor the correct licensee as per the form 3? If not, the atf would probably like to know about that. Either way, this is probably not the first time that this has happened. They atf may be slow, but everyone pretty much agrees that they are professional. If anyone other than the op has an interest in getting this resolved, it is the atf.

 

[FCS]

Yes, there is a paper trail, it was Form 3'd to the original owner, OP attempted to Form 4 it, which was rejected. So it remains on the books of the original owner, until at some point, the new owners took possession of it whether they took over the business whole or it was Form 3'd to the new FFL/SOT. Either way the new owners have an NFA paper trail that says that the items in question are theirs and are suggesting OP take up his desire for a refund with the original owner.

Where does it say "rejected"? OP states returned for errors. Not uncommon and usually as soon as errors are corrected the stamp is issued.
HUGE difference between "rejected" and "returned for errors".

 

[FCS]

Yes, there is a paper trail, it was Form 3'd to the original owner, OP attempted to Form 4 it, which was rejected. So it remains on the books of the original owner, until at some point, the new owners took possession of it whether they took over the business whole or it was Form 3'd to the new FFL/SOT. Either way the new owners have an NFA paper trail that says that the items in question are theirs and are suggesting OP take up his desire for a refund with the original owner.

Are you an FFL / SOT?

 

[HansohnBrothers]

Where does it say "rejected"? OP states returned for errors. Not uncommon and usually as soon as errors are corrected the stamp is issued.
HUGE difference between "rejected" and "returned for errors".

Third post in, "errors on both applications. They contacted the dealer, then issued a refund." The dealer never fixed or didn't fix the errors before the deadline and the form was then rejected.

 

[Wading]

Maybe he got the WuHu virus, Just saying.

 

[Supersubes]

Where does it say "rejected"? OP states returned for errors. Not uncommon and usually as soon as errors are corrected the stamp is issued.
HUGE difference between "rejected" and "returned for errors".

He also said the taxes were refunded (per ATF), which seemed to me to mean those errors were never addressed, so game over for that submission.

 

[respiegel]

Where does it say "rejected"? OP states returned for errors. Not uncommon and usually as soon as errors are corrected the stamp is issued.
HUGE difference between "rejected" and "returned for errors".

Fair point, but without a tax stamp in hand OP cannot show that the transfer to the new dealer was unlawful.

The legal question here is who assumes the liability, OP or the new owners. Without having the a copy of the pervious owners financials to audit the money trail (which honestly may not exist anymore) it is a hard case to prove.

OP has a not-approved Form 4 and a receipt showing payment of funds, the new owners also have a receipt showing payment of funds and an approved Form 3. That means a civil case against a most likely now defunct LLC for the amount paid, so without evidence of the original owner acting in bad faith OP has no way of going after the original owner himself.

I hope OP gets made whole but I don't see how the new owners are obligated to hand over inventory they paid for because of a mistake of the previous owner. Enlisting the help of the new owners is the cheapest way OP is going to find out what options he has available. OP can sue the new owners, but the cost to have the lawyers do all the legwork will most likely exceed the cost of the items, and if the courts find in favor of the new owners his expenses just doubled.

Arguing over what should have happened isn't productive or helpful, we know what did happen and OP wants to know what, if anything, he can do about it. Seems the only way OP is going to get relief from the new owners is if they acquired the operation whole and the debt owed would have been assumed with it. Those details should be easy for OP to get by asking nicely

 

[respiegel]

Maybe he got the WuHu virus, Just saying.

Really that would be the worst thing for OP as the original owners estate trustee would have liquidated everything and he would have missed his opportunity in probate to file a claim. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

 

[FCS]

Again, this is why you contact ATF-NFA to get confirmation that a refund was sent and where is the can per ATF-NFA records. OP would get the refund, not the FFL / SOT.

OP still owns the can unless the original FFL / SOT refunded him the money and there is a paperwork trail.

Original FFL / SOT can't hang onto can once the FFL / SOT is expired. New FFL / SOT is gonna have to help out at some point in some capacity.

 

[hlee]

So, follow me here. It sounds like the new ffl is taking the stance that they ant do anything because they are now the owners of the can in question- the op has to go through the original ffl to get a refund. Well, the original ffl has not issued a refund for the can. Then it was transferred to another ffl. The can was not that ffl’s to sell, and the op has a receipt to prove it. is The new ffl in possession of stolen property?

 

[FCS]

Fair point, but without a tax stamp in hand OP cannot show that the transfer to the new dealer was unlawful.

The legal question here is who assumes the liability, OP or the new owners. Without having the a copy of the pervious owners financials to audit the money trail (which honestly may not exist anymore) it is a hard case to prove.

OP has a not-approved Form 4 and a receipt showing payment of funds, the new owners also have a receipt showing payment of funds and an approved Form 3. That means a civil case against a most likely now defunct LLC for the amount paid, so without evidence of the original owner acting in bad faith OP has no way of going after the original owner himself.

I hope OP gets made whole but I don't see how the new owners are obligated to hand over inventory they paid for because of a mistake of the previous owner. Enlisting the help of the new owners is the cheapest way OP is going to find out what options he has available. OP can sue the new owners, but the cost to have the lawyers do all the legwork will most likely exceed the cost of the items, and if the courts find in favor of the new owners his expenses just doubled.

Arguing over what should have happened isn't productive or helpful, we know what did happen and OP wants to know what, if anything, he can do about it. Seems the only way OP is going to get relief from the new owners is if they acquired the operation whole and the debt owed would have been assumed with it. Those details should be easy for OP to get by asking nicely

Whole lotta undefined variables, that is only given in this shit show.
New FFL / SOT saying they can't help because cans are now their cans or saying can't help because they don't have a form 3 saying it can transfer from them?

"...we know what did happen.."
We don't know shit about what happened. We have a partial, at best, one side of story and NONE of the actual paperwork on assets moved / sold as part of the business transfer.
Huge assumption that cans were transferred on form 3 and now are part of new FFL / SOTs inventory unencumbered. Unless there is a clear paper trail to that effect, I think new FFL / SOT has a problem. Especially if there isn't a form3 transfer to them, which is probably why they don't want to touch this.
ATF - NFA can help by clearly defining WHO is currently the FFL / SOT of record on last form 3.

Been there, done this in a very similar situation before adding SOT to my FFL. Took a good 3 months to get resolved, lotta calls to ATF-NFA, lotta conversations with the new FFL / SOT. I had paperwork, showed the paper trail and issue got resolved. Frustrating as heck and time consuming.

OP needs to get information from ATF-NFA on where can is supposed to be, what FFL / SOT is supposed to be in possession of the cans.
OP needs to take information to new FFL / SOT showing he has receipt for cans. IF new FFL / SOT doesn't want to help, find new FFL / SOT and have cans transferred via form 3. IF new FFL / SOT refuses to transfer on a form 3, then that is a different problem.

 

[FCS]

He also said the taxes were refunded (per ATF), which seemed to me to mean those errors were never addressed, so game over for that submission.

I deal with this a lot.
People say "It was refunded" but upon closer inspection it was "returned".
Semantics / nomenclature and what was actually said makes a HUGE difference.

ATF would return fees to OP, possibly via FFL / SOT but more likely to OP since they have his address per for form 4.

Not adding up.

 

[Supersubes]

I deal with this a lot.
People say "It was refunded" but upon closer inspection it was "returned".
Semantics / nomenclature and what was actually said makes a HUGE difference.

ATF would return fees to OP, possibly via FFL / SOT but more likely to OP since they have his address per for form 4.

Not adding up.

I agree it’s not adding up. So many questions of all the parties. The timeline would be interesting too.

 

[FCS]

I've done that and was informed there were errors on both applications. They contacted the dealer, then issued a refund. I guess I'll call ATF again and hopefully get someone that can help.

When you call ATF-NFA branch you need to determine if they returned form 4 for correction of if they issued a "refund of $200".

ATF-NFA will only tell you if can is still at original FFL / SOT. You'll need to be patient and explain the situation to the person you are talking to. Most you'll get is what FFL / SOT the can is still offically at.
You also need to clarify if the new FFL / SOT is claiming they own the can or if they are saying they can't help, you must finish transfer via the original FFL / SOT because they don't have can on their FFL / SOT, A&D book. Two very different situations.

Best interest of the new FFL / SOT to work with you but make it easy for them.
Determine if new FFL / SOT is claiming they own the cans.
If new FFL / SOT is claiming they own the cans, gonna be different suggestion.
However, if new FFL / SOT agrees the cans are yours but you must finish transfer with the old FFL / SOT then that is a different suggestion.
Define the variables, then a reasonable path forward can be suggested.

 

[HansohnBrothers]

ATF would return fees to OP, possibly via FFL / SOT but more likely to OP since they have his address per for form 4.

Not adding up.

The returned/refunded NFA Tax goes to whomever made the payment. If the OP cut a check to ATF, then he would get the $200. If the dealer cut the check to ATF, they would get the $200.

For me, I would go to the new dealer and request to complete the form 4 or refund payment. If they can't do either, the OP needs to know why.

 

[FCS]

The returned/refunded NFA Tax goes to whomever made the payment. If the OP cut a check to ATF, then he would get the $200. If the dealer cut the check to ATF, they would get the $200.

For me, I would go to the new dealer and request to complete the form 4 or refund payment. If they can't do either, the OP needs to know why.

C note says new FFL / SOT is holding the cans waiting on paperwork to clear but on original FFL / SOT form3. Reason they can't help is they don't have a form 3 with their FFL / SOT #, they are just holding in secure location and were praying the approved form 4 would come in so it would clear books.

Errors on forms, original FFL / SOT has disappeared and new FFL / SOT is in possession of a can they have no Form 3 to show they should have it. Unless they have a letter from ATF-NFA on holding assests while waiting for forms to come back. I've never taken over another FFL / SOTs inventory but doubt that is even a possibility. New FFL / SOT is in uncharted waters for their skill set (best guess from data I have) and are just deflecting as they don't want to risk getting in trouble. New FFL / SOT needs paperwork showing can was transferred from old FFL / SOT to a different a valid FFL / SOT on form 3 or an approved form 4 to clear out the original FFL / SOT books.

Easiest is going to be give way for new FFL / SOT to move can to somebody who can help. Form 4 prevented a transfer via form 3 to new FFL / SOT until it got returned / rejected which probably happened post business assets transfer.
New FFL / SOT is in not great spot, doesn't know how to get outta bind short of deflecting / diverting OP back to old FFL / SOT.
OP needs details (hope he has a copy of form 4 he submitted) so that he can find a way to get cans form 3'ed to a different FFL / SOT or form 3'ed to current FFL / SOT who claims to have cans in possession.

First thing that I need to know is if new FFL / SOT claims to own the cans or not. Until that is known, no way to make suggestions.
IF new FFL / SOT states the cans are owned by the OP but they can't help with paper work then they are holding the cans on original FFL / SOTs form 3 w/o knowing how to resubmitt the form 4 using the expired / lapsed / turned in FFL / SOT that can is currently form 3'ed on.

Gonna be a major PITA for OP and will eat up tons of time.

1) Does new FFL / SOT claim to own the cans?
2) What FFL / SOT is on current form 3 with can in safe?
Need to know both these details to move forward.

 

[FCS]

IF can is on original FFL / SOT form 3, new FFL / SOT was just holding for it to clear books but then form 4 was rejected....
time line of events matters a bunch.
Best of my knowledge, can't have a form 3 and a form 4 for same can happening at the same time. Well DUH.

Need the original FFL / SOT signature for new form 4 / he has to amend the original form 4 or needs a new signature on a form 3 to transfer to the new FFL / SOT. Regardless, the original FFL / SOT needs to be involved.
Personally, I'd not close out my FFL / SOT until everything cleared books.

OP needs to have a very candid discussion with the new FFL / SOT on what is on the current form 3 and how this came to be. OP can not help the new FFL / SOT unless he has needed details on what is on the current form 3. Make it a win win, things will move faster.

Only way the new FFL / SOT can't help is if they need the original FFL / SOT signature for a new form 4 to clear out those books or to get a transfer to them on form 3. Would appear to me that a couple people are in luke warm water that could get real warm, real quick but all that depends on the details that have yet to be provided.

 

[HansohnBrothers]

Need the original FFL / SOT signature for new form 4 ...

They don't even need an SOT to do the form 4. We have taken over a dealer and ATF was kind enough to expedite the form 3 of the entire inventory to us so they could close out their book. Customers did have to submit new form 4s though. Dealer needed out fast, I forget the exact details.

Scenario 1: The new dealer doesn't have the previous owners' FFL and didn't Form 3 inventory to the new FFL
Scenario 2: The new dealer doesn't know how to handle NFA items
Scenario 3: ???

 

[FCS]

They don't even need an SOT to do the form 4. We have taken over a dealer and ATF was kind enough to expedite the form 3 of the entire inventory to us so they could close out their book. Customers did have to submit new form 4s though. Dealer needed out fast, I forget the exact details.

Scenario 1: The new dealer doesn't have the previous owners' FFL and didn't Form 3 inventory to the new FFL
Scenario 2: The new dealer doesn't know how to handle NFA items
Scenario 3: ???

One of the above for sure, I’m guessing #3.

OP needs to nail down some details and then cans will get out of jail.
No details, all this free advice and guessing is for naught.

 

[FuSchnicken]

Never i repeat never allow the FFL to submit paper work.
95% of all horror stories involve the dealer being a fuck-up.

What you have just said horrifies me. This whole thread is terrible.

 

[HansohnBrothers]

What you have just said horrifies me. This whole thread is terrible.

It's important to research dealers just as much as the products.