Can't decide 10.5 vs 11.5 SBR upper

[taseal]

I'm having a very tough time deciding between a 11.5 or a 10.5 upper for my duty rifle. This is on me, so cost is a factor too. I've been eyeing adam's arms piston uppers, but PSA's 10.5 upper has really caught my attention for around 330 dollars. I already have a BCG, so it's really all I need (plus a handguard). Not a big fan of the front sight post though.

I have also looked at BCM's stuff and they supposedly from my research are top notch. their stuff come in around the same price, and you also get a BCG. The one I like is actually out of stock. (BCM Standard 11.5" Upper Receiver Group with Daniel Defense LITE RAIL II, 10" Handguard (NFA))

I've done all the research I possibly can, and just don't see the benefit (for me at least) of having that extra inch. probably 50-200 engagement distance, no suppressor, well maintained, deployment out of a vehicle all point to 10.5 uppers being sufficient for my purposes...

is there anything I've missed? perhaps the only thing drawing me back from purchase right now is that BCM seems to handle their customers better than PSA, and I could get a low profile gas block vs a front sight post gas block with psa. for 600 bucks, I'd get what I want, vs with PSA I will have to slightly modify it and that's not something I want to mess with on an SBR...

any suggestions that I might have missed guys?

PDW length has crossed my mind too, but I think I'd like slightly longer.

 

[jasonfaz]

Oh lordy, this should be a fun thread. First let me ask you a few things before making a recommendation. If you were to list the top 5 priorities related to aspects of this rifle what would they be? For example...

1. Overall length
2. Weight
3. Recoil impulse
4. Accuracy
5. Ergonomics (i.e. Handguard OD, accessory attachment mechanism preferences, etc)

Secondly, do you have any extensive, hands on experience shooting SBRs? If yes, what where the configs and what did you like or not like about them? What I'm trying to understand is why you feel conflicted with 11.5 vs 10.5. What specifically do you feel the advantages of one would be compared to the other as it stands right now?

 

[jasonfaz]

And what BCG do you currently have and plan to use? That could actually be very important depending on your prioritization of needs.

 

[VoxPatriam]

For coming out of a vehicle into who knows what kind of situation? I'd say get the PDW length. It'll be the easiest to get out the fastest and provide you with enough accuracy to deal with most threats. Add an ACOG or ELCAN, and you're set for close (point blank-50m) and longer (<200m ish) Just my $0.02.

 

[jasonfaz]

This is why I asked the above questions. I wouldn't even consider the 7.5" as an option. There are a lot of ways to achieve an overall length that you need to have enough maneuverability to expediently deal with a threat. The difference will be gas blowing back in your face, burning your eyes, ensuring you can't see shit through any optic. The next will be sound. If you've ever shot a 7.5" with full power 5.56 loads without earpro you know you'll be ringing for hours. If you're expected to be utilizing comms during this time you'd be shit out of luck. 10.5 and 11.5 are loud as hell too, but not to the extent a 7.5" will be.

People will tell you that 11.5 increases dwell time 40% over the 10.5, which is only important because more dwell time equals less gas blow back and mitigates recoil to an extent. There are also ways to do this same thing without extending OAL. You will instead increase weight to achieve the same result, but also reap the benefits of the heavier weight.

I would suggest 10.5". I would run a heavy carrier (PWS, or throw some weights from the Tubbs kit into your current carrier) and a UCIW stock, Slash's 5.5oz buffer and XP spring, get a medium contour 1-7" twist barrel with an SLR Sentry adj gas block and tune it to the heaviest load your dept has approved. I'd throw a 2MOA Aimpoint T1 and a 10" URX4, NSR or KMR on it and the muzzle device of your choice. That would give your weapon an overall length of 24".

That said, the 11.5" just makes life easier if a 25" OAL is something you can maneuver appropriately within the constraints of your vehicle's environment. I've had no issue running an 11.5 out of a vehicle under stress. There's simply less room for error. All functional aspects of the rifle will (or can be) be better though. You can reduce recoil impulse better, technically you have slightly better ballistic performance (exterior and terminal), and the muzzle is further from your face which could benefit you in a variety of ways.

So each have their advantages. What those translate into for you is based on what you feel most comfortable with. I like the 10.5 because it's not worth an inch to get hung up on something when swinging the rifle around. It's essentially the shortest you can go and have lethal capability out to at least the ranges you might encounter. Most of the downsides of the 10.5" can be mitigated and the ones that can't aren't worth that extra inch.

Just my 2¢...

 

[Evolution 9]

11.5 More reliability and a fuzz less concussion/muzzle blast.

I've used numerous 10.5s 12.5s and others on entries. You will never hang up because you had 11.5 instead of 10.5 inches (I currently run a 12.5).

For general patrol duties, you have even less need for the short barrel.

 

[taseal]

Oh lordy, this should be a fun thread. First let me ask you a few things before making a recommendation. If you were to list the top 5 priorities related to aspects of this rifle what would they be? For example...

1. Overall length
2. Weight
3. Recoil impulse
4. Accuracy
5. Ergonomics (i.e. Handguard OD, accessory attachment mechanism preferences, etc)

Secondly, do you have any extensive, hands on experience shooting SBRs? If yes, what where the configs and what did you like or not like about them? What I'm trying to understand is why you feel conflicted with 11.5 vs 10.5. What specifically do you feel the advantages of one would be compared to the other as it stands right now?

I have not owned SBRs before. My department is getting (I'm getting them actually) GUU-5Ps and I have change the upper on them as we register them we ATF (I do the paperwork for my dept actually). For experience on rifles, let's just say a good amount, to include grunt military.

now that's out of the way. I'll prioritize for you.

1. Overall length
2. Weight
3. Recoil impulse
4. Accuracy
5. Ergonomics (i.e. Handguard OD, accessory attachment mechanism preferences, etc)

1. OAL
2.Weight
3. Recoil
4. Ergonomics
5. Accuracy (at these distances, I'm looking for accuracy that any of these things should provide, not a sniper platform. silhouette shots out to 200, which I have no issue with a regular sized AR or M4 with iron or CCO)

I feel conflicted because I'm really curious if that one extra inch (one less inch) is going to make that much of a difference for me. it doesn't feel like much, but small things can make a difference. I don't think that extra inch is going to articulate better reliability, further distance, more accuracy etc for what I do. but my options are alot more from BCM with the 11.5 vs only a few 10.5 uppers.

OAL is most important followed by balance and weight. everything is after that. Any of these things should run reliable.

and lastly, it will be either the BCM BCG if I get that, or a M16 full auto BCG (take off from the GUU-5P which is a Frankenstein M4/M16 created by the Air Force)

 

[taseal]

11.5 More reliability and a fuzz less concussion/muzzle blast.

I've used numerous 10.5s 12.5s and others on entries. You will never hang up because you had 11.5 instead of 10.5 inches (I currently run a 12.5).

For general patrol duties, you have even less need for the short barrel.

I wish I could try them and try them out entering etc.

I think a full length rifle for patrol duty is the most unnecessary thing on the planet. It works because we have them, but a shorter barrel will make things much easier. and honestly for the distances they would be utilized, 10.5/11.5 will do the job.

 

[taseal]

This is why I asked the above questions. I wouldn't even consider the 7.5" as an option. There are a lot of ways to achieve an overall length that you need to have enough maneuverability to expediently deal with a threat. The difference will be gas blowing back in your face, burning your eyes, ensuring you can't see shit through any optic. The next will be sound. If you've ever shot a 7.5" with full power 5.56 loads without earpro you know you'll be ringing for hours. If you're expected to be utilizing comms during this time you'd be shit out of luck. 10.5 and 11.5 are loud as hell too, but not to the extent a 7.5" will be.

People will tell you that 11.5 increases dwell time 40% over the 10.5, which is only important because more dwell time equals less gas blow back and mitigates recoil to an extent. There are also ways to do this same thing without extending OAL. You will instead increase weight to achieve the same result, but also reap the benefits of the heavier weight.

I would suggest 10.5". I would run a heavy carrier (PWS, or throw some weights from the Tubbs kit into your current carrier) and a UCIW stock, Slash's 5.5oz buffer and XP spring, get a medium contour 1-7" twist barrel with an SLR Sentry adj gas block and tune it to the heaviest load your dept has approved. I'd throw a 2MOA Aimpoint T1 and a 10" URX4, NSR or KMR on it and the muzzle device of your choice. That would give your weapon an overall length of 24".

That said, the 11.5" just makes life easier if a 25" OAL is something you can maneuver appropriately within the constraints of your vehicle's environment. I've had no issue running an 11.5 out of a vehicle under stress. There's simply less room for error. All functional aspects of the rifle will (or can be) be better though. You can reduce recoil impulse better, technically you have slightly better ballistic performance (exterior and terminal), and the muzzle is further from your face which could benefit you in a variety of ways.

So each have their advantages. What those translate into for you is based on what you feel most comfortable with. I like the 10.5 because it's not worth an inch to get hung up on something when swinging the rifle around. It's essentially the shortest you can go and have lethal capability out to at least the ranges you might encounter. Most of the downsides of the 10.5" can be mitigated and the ones that can't aren't worth that extra inch.

Just my 2¢...

Thanks Jason,

very helpful. I currently have a PWS Mk114mod1 and it's a great rifle. I wish I could get their 10.5 upper, but it's little too pricey for me unfortunately, and I'm not willing to sell my personal rifle to feed an upper into my work rifle.

 

[jasonfaz]

Sure, and just to clarify, I was referring to the PWS DI carrier that comes in a good 1/3lb heavier than a standard M16 profile carrier. That additional weight is extremely valuable in a 10.5" specifically just because is allows for a greater lock time and makes a 10.5 DI gun run like a 11.5 DI gun with a std M16 carrier. Like you said, little things like that make a difference.

While I completely agree that your recreational shooter will find 11.5 do be an ideal compromise, I would certainly disagree that you'll never hang up with that additional inch. To me, the 11.5 (which I currently use) seems a hell of a lot longer than the 10.5 I used to have. About 6 months ago I started a slew of testing with a 7.5" XLP, 8" Seekins, 9.25" POF, 10.3" Daniel Defense, 11.5" Noveske, 12.5" Noveske and a 14.5" midlength Noveske that I cut to 13" and rethreaded. The 12.5 proved to be useless with a 13" ML clearly outperforming it in nearly every category, and the lengths under 10.3" were so uncomfortable to shoot that you were left with the 10.3"/10.5" and 11.5" when looking for any maneuverability advantages. In my opinion, the 10.5 balanced better, and was as reliable as the 11.5 in every way. Had 1500 rounds through it before embarking on the next test. I'm actually selling the 11.5 as well just to get to the final chapter in this whole adventure which will be an 11" Noveske. Essentially the best of both worlds when it comes to 11.5" vs 10.5" 5.56s. But assuming you're going to have budget constraints to an extent, I'd rest with the 10.5" and make some small, relatively inexpensive upgrades to key components like the carrier, buffer & spring, adj gas block, etc. as you'll be able to do everything the 11.5 can do, but you'll be doing it with a rifle that's an inch shorter.

Hell, that one extra inch won't be a problem until the one (or first) time that it is. What happens as a result is what that one inch is worth...

 

[Avonac]

Take this for what it's worth. If I had a job that absolutely required a SBR, then hands down the BCM 11.5. Longer dwell time and overall better running platform. Now my personal opinion is that if you are not planning on running suppressed SBR's aren't all they are cracked up to be. This is from a guy who has carried MP5s and AR's in 10.5,11.5.12.5 and finally settled on a lw 14.5. I'll trade a couple inches for a mid length gas system and the ability to run a longer forearm.

 

[Evolution 9]

Take this for what it's worth. If I had a job that absolutely required a SBR, then hands down the BCM 11.5. Longer dwell time and overall better running platform. Now my personal opinion is that if you are not planning on running suppressed SBR's aren't all they are cracked up to be. This is from a guy who has carried MP5s and AR's in 10.5,11.5.12.5 and finally settled on a lw 14.5. I'll trade a couple inches for a mid length gas system and the ability to run a longer forearm.

This ^

" I don't think that extra inch is going to articulate better reliability..." Take this as me being direct, not rude... What you "think" has nothing to do with it. 11.5 inch guns are more reliable, last longer, and are less sensitive to outside factors (ammo/crud buildup, etc.) than 10.5" guns. It's a fact, not a subjective feeling or opinion.

"I think a full length rifle for patrol duty is the most unnecessary thing on the planet. It works because we have them, but a shorter barrel will make things much easier." Maybe what you do on patrol is vastly different from what I do on patrol, but I can't imagine a whole lot of circumstances in which "a shorter barrel will make things much easier". What exactly do you do that will be much easier with a short barrel?

I use a 12.5 because I also do entries. I have never encountered a situation where a 16" gun would hinder me on patrol. In fact, the longer barrel gives better terminal performance and better natural swing.

Several of our guys even use 16" guns for entries, and this rarely cramps their style.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get SBRs. If you want them, get them. Just realize two things:

1. You don't need them for patrol work.
2. That extra inch from 10.5 to 11.5 will help you and will NEVER hinder you.

This is all coming from a guy who's buying a select fire HK416. I totally get the cool guy/fun toy aspect of these purchases, but I admit that is what it is. I don't need the HK, I want it. You don't need SBRs for patrol. You want them.

So get them 11.5 is far ahead in your poll for a good reason.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Honestly, there are advantages to the 11.5, but with some work you can easily get the 10.5 to be every bit as reliable and smooth it out a bit just as jasonfaz has already mentioned. As long as you set up a 10.5 properly there is nothing it can't do vs. a 11.5, but if you're just wanting to slap an upper on there and not have to worry about it I would go the 11.5 all day.

I've carried a 10.5 for patrol and I really liked having it as it was easier getting out of the car quickly, weighed a little less than the 16", and was a more maneuverable. While not needed for patrol, I miss being able to carry an SBR on duty. I changed agencies 2 years ago and not only are we not allowed to carry SBRs on patrol, everything has to be a Colt just as you can have any pistol so long as it's the department issued Glock 22... damn

 

[taseal]

This ^

" I don't think that extra inch is going to articulate better reliability..." Take this as me being direct, not rude... What you "think" has nothing to do with it. 11.5 inch guns are more reliable, last longer, and are less sensitive to outside factors (ammo/crud buildup, etc.) than 10.5" guns. It's a fact, not a subjective feeling or opinion.

"I think a full length rifle for patrol duty is the most unnecessary thing on the planet. It works because we have them, but a shorter barrel will make things much easier." Maybe what you do on patrol is vastly different from what I do on patrol, but I can't imagine a whole lot of circumstances in which "a shorter barrel will make things much easier". What exactly do you do that will be much easier with a short barrel?

I use a 12.5 because I also do entries. I have never encountered a situation where a 16" gun would hinder me on patrol. In fact, the longer barrel gives better terminal performance and better natural swing.

Several of our guys even use 16" guns for entries, and this rarely cramps their style.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get SBRs. If you want them, get them. Just realize two things:

1. You don't need them for patrol work.
2. That extra inch from 10.5 to 11.5 will help you and will NEVER hinder you.

This is all coming from a guy who's buying a select fire HK416. I totally get the cool guy/fun toy aspect of these purchases, but I admit that is what it is. I don't need the HK, I want it. You don't need SBRs for patrol. You want them.

So get them 11.5 is far ahead in your poll for a good reason.

Brother,

we can argue day and night here and this thread will derail so far from my main question that I'll forget what I had asked about. We have guys wielding UMP40s vs AR15s for entry we have, and that's their thing. It is what it is. In my opinion a shorter barrel works for patrol because we don't need the terminal velocity of a full length rifle at the distances I would engage at (a guy at 50-100 yards is going down with a 14.5 or a 10.5 inch barrel all else equal and right ammo) so I rather take a shorter barrel for ease of maneuverability, and weight savings. Does a full length hinder me? most certainly not, so does that mean SBR is a want vs a need? probably.... Will I personally benefit from it? I believe I will. Is the chief going to get everyone a SBR? probably not. (and I have to re-submit all the ATF Form 10s for each SBR rifle we got? lol)

for the reliability quote. Is a 11.5 more reliable vs a 10.5? I'm sure it is. is a 10.5 from a reputable manufacturer reliable? you betcha. If it's reliable, it'll do. I'm not looking for the more reliable. I'm looking for reliable. perhaps I mis-worded it.

It's nice you're getting a HK416. Doubt our chief will be getting those for us. We're lucky that we got he gov program to get us the rifles and the freedom to change the uppers on them to better suit us if the officers wants to.

I have an issued M14, and unfortunately it does not see any use. Maybe one day I can get chief to get me a sage stock for it and a nice scope.

 

[taseal]

Sure, and just to clarify, I was referring to the PWS DI carrier that comes in a good 1/3lb heavier than a standard M16 profile carrier. That additional weight is extremely valuable in a 10.5" specifically just because is allows for a greater lock time and makes a 10.5 DI gun run like a 11.5 DI gun with a std M16 carrier. Like you said, little things like that make a difference.

While I completely agree that your recreational shooter will find 11.5 do be an ideal compromise, I would certainly disagree that you'll never hang up with that additional inch. To me, the 11.5 (which I currently use) seems a hell of a lot longer than the 10.5 I used to have. About 6 months ago I started a slew of testing with a 7.5" XLP, 8" Seekins, 9.25" POF, 10.3" Daniel Defense, 11.5" Noveske, 12.5" Noveske and a 14.5" midlength Noveske that I cut to 13" and rethreaded. The 12.5 proved to be useless with a 13" ML clearly outperforming it in nearly every category, and the lengths under 10.3" were so uncomfortable to shoot that you were left with the 10.3"/10.5" and 11.5" when looking for any maneuverability advantages. In my opinion, the 10.5 balanced better, and was as reliable as the 11.5 in every way. Had 1500 rounds through it before embarking on the next test. I'm actually selling the 11.5 as well just to get to the final chapter in this whole adventure which will be an 11" Noveske. Essentially the best of both worlds when it comes to 11.5" vs 10.5" 5.56s. But assuming you're going to have budget constraints to an extent, I'd rest with the 10.5" and make some small, relatively inexpensive upgrades to key components like the carrier, buffer & spring, adj gas block, etc. as you'll be able to do everything the 11.5 can do, but you'll be doing it with a rifle that's an inch shorter.

Hell, that one extra inch won't be a problem until the one (or first) time that it is. What happens as a result is what that one inch is worth...

This is the part that really is throwing me off... I wish I could test them out. Perhaps I can go to our NFA shop here and try, but sometimes they aren't the friendliest people and charge a pretty penny. They also don't like dealing with you if you aren't buying from them. (like most gun shops) Does that inch really make that much of a difference on the characteristics of the rifle?

 

[taseal]

Honestly, there are advantages to the 11.5, but with some work you can easily get the 10.5 to be every bit as reliable and smooth it out a bit just as jasonfaz has already mentioned. As long as you set up a 10.5 properly there is nothing it can't do vs. a 11.5, but if you're just wanting to slap an upper on there and not have to worry about it I would go the 11.5 all day.

I've carried a 10.5 for patrol and I really liked having it as it was easier getting out of the car quickly, weighed a little less than the 16", and was a more maneuverable. While not needed for patrol, I miss being able to carry an SBR on duty. I changed agencies 2 years ago and not only are we not allowed to carry SBRs on patrol, everything has to be a Colt just as you can have any pistol so long as it's the department issued Glock 22... damn

Damn brother. My current issue is a Colt. I'll be giving that back, when I get the GUU-5P.

 

[jasonfaz]

This is the part that really is throwing me off... I wish I could test them out. Perhaps I can go to our NFA shop here and try, but sometimes they aren't the friendliest people and charge a pretty penny. They also don't like dealing with you if you aren't buying from them. (like most gun shops) Does that inch really make that much of a difference on the characteristics of the rifle?

What ZombieMonkey said is EXACTLY right. I never end up picking the brief, direct answer to a question. Well said Zombie.

taseal, that is what I struggled with too. Interesting how there is very little practical feedback on some things, yet for others - like the 10.3"-12.5" SBR topic - there's almost too much information with too little context that it becomes pretty difficult to make a call one way or the other. That's basically why I went through the rather expensive process of building one of each to compare using my own criteria to measure which fit my needs the best. It's odd to me that you could be left with opinions of that would put OAL in the middle or towards the bottom of that priority list but don't mention this. It's often just, 11.5" is superior regardless of whether it's the best fit for the task at hand and the operators' preferences. Huh? WTF? IMO, making a recommendation is only valuable if given in a relevant context, includes potential draw backs, but also cites the advantages that directly correlate to the priorities of the user - NOT one's own list of preferences.

After running through all of those rigs the 10.5 was and still is my favorite gun. I'm 6'3" about 220 and have no issue with hand position on a 10" handguard. It's likely the same length you get on an 11.5. I do recall picking up that 11.5 after the 10.5 and consciously thinking, "damn, that seems like more than just an inch." Especially so when moving and shooting. I don't know, just a feel thing. For what my uses are with a shorty 5.56 my priority list is similar to yours with weight being at the very bottom and accuracy in the middle as the only variations. I arrived at this conclusion by reversing my decision process and basing it on my highest priority. OAL. I tried proving that the 11.5, 12.5, etc could do something....anything, so much better than the 10.5" that it made OAL move down my list. In the end, I couldn't prove it and it actually solidified why OAL is #1. That to me is more valuable than looking at data in a spreadsheet telling me that dwell time is increased in an 11.5. So what? That fact by itself means nothing unless it's clearly stated why it's important RELATIVE TO MY REQUIREMENTS. If you said "reliability, that's why" then I would need to see some type of issue related to such otherwise I'm looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If no issues exist that "40% more dwell time" would have any effect on then it becomes a useless, arbitrary number. If it wasn't that way we'd all be running around with 28" rifles that are incapable of failing.....and we all know what that is....Kabookie with a side of nut juice.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

9.25" pof.

But the 11.5" is the way I would go for a DI rifle

 

[taseal]

What ZombieMonkey said is EXACTLY right. I never end up picking the brief, direct answer to a question. Well said Zombie.

taseal, that is what I struggled with too. Interesting how there is very little practical feedback on some things, yet for others - like the 10.3"-12.5" SBR topic - there's almost too much information with too little context that it becomes pretty difficult to make a call one way or the other. That's basically why I went through the rather expensive process of building one of each to compare using my own criteria to measure which fit my needs the best. It's odd to me that you could be left with opinions of that would put OAL in the middle or towards the bottom of that priority list but don't mention this. It's often just, 11.5" is superior regardless of whether it's the best fit for the task at hand and the operators' preferences. Huh? WTF? IMO, making a recommendation is only valuable if given in a relevant context, includes potential draw backs, but also cites the advantages that directly correlate to the priorities of the user - NOT one's own list of preferences.

After running through all of those rigs the 10.5 was and still is my favorite gun. I'm 6'3" about 220 and have no issue with hand position on a 10" handguard. It's likely the same length you get on an 11.5. I do recall picking up that 11.5 after the 10.5 and consciously thinking, "damn, that seems like more than just an inch." Especially so when moving and shooting. I don't know, just a feel thing. For what my uses are with a shorty 5.56 my priority list is similar to yours with weight being at the very bottom and accuracy in the middle as the only variations. I arrived at this conclusion by reversing my decision process and basing it on my highest priority. OAL. I tried proving that the 11.5, 12.5, etc could do something....anything, so much better than the 10.5" that it made OAL move down my list. In the end, I couldn't prove it and it actually solidified why OAL is #1. That to me is more valuable than looking at data in a spreadsheet telling me that dwell time is increased in an 11.5. So what? That fact by itself means nothing unless it's clearly stated why it's important RELATIVE TO MY REQUIREMENTS. If you said "reliability, that's why" then I would need to see some type of issue related to such otherwise I'm looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If no issues exist that "40% more dwell time" would have any effect on then it becomes a useless, arbitrary number. If it wasn't that way we'd all be running around with 28" rifles that are incapable of failing.....and we all know what that is....Kabookie with a side of nut juice.

Thanks Jason, you've been very helpful.

I don't see too many 10.5s on sale. found some company called radical firearms from TX that is sold by primary arms... wonder what parts they use. barrel etc. I don't understand why they used pistol length gas tube on a 10.5 though

surprisingly many here voted for the 11.5.... I guess BCM really sold their idea with that 40% dwell time post they had made few years back.

 

[jasonfaz]

You bet brother. Good luck to you, and let us know what you end up deciding on and how it works out!

 

[corym468]

Taseal, as long as your shopping around you should contact Precision Firearms. I know they have some LE contracts. They'd be able to make the uppers to your specifications and Mark is great about answering ALL your questions and giving advice.

 

[Birddog6424]

Massive over complication of a simple decision.

You won't notice one inch difference. Just pick one.

 

[jasonfaz]

Fantastic, earth-shattering advice there. Thanks for the contribution.

 

[Birddog6424]

Fantastic, earth-shattering advice there. Thanks for the contribution.

Short, sweet, and most importantly,......accurate.

 

[taseal]

Short, sweet, and most importantly,......accurate.

if it was that unimportant, BCM would have probably gone with standard 10.5 length. obviously some see it different. but thanks for your opinion

Massive over complication of a simple decision.

You won't notice one inch difference. Just pick one.

Fantastic, earth-shattering advice there. Thanks for the contribution.

LOL...

 

[taseal]

11.5 (on F/A's) is what I run and they seem to be less finicky about digesting many different kinds of ammo. If the Gas port size is not to spec on the shorter versions, and the ammo mfgs are just a tad off that extra inch makes all the difference in the world. That said,... the 12.5 gas pulse (DI) is better yet but, like everything else in life to get something you have to give up something,...

OK, so here is what I did...

I went and got an inexpensive no frills 10.5 upper from radical firearms. (it was 270 shipped for a no bcg/ch upper). With this, I'll see how I like the length, and I'll be able to test out this new company and their rifles. Before they ship it, hopefully they do a good QC, because I'll probably do a review on it and post it up on forums and youtube as I haven't seen any.

now after I get this upper and play around with it, I'll get a 11.5 and play around with that.

after I figure out what I prefer more, I will sell the other one to one of the other guys at work, or put it on sale here. or just keep it to myself and put it on a pistol lower with a sig brace.

I'll let you guys know when this 10.5 comes and see how this new brand holds up to use.

I'm still very curious on the differences between a 11.5 and 10.5 for feel of weight and OAL.

Thanks to all for contributing to the thread, learned some good pointers and some good advice.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

if it was that unimportant, BCM would have probably gone with standard 10.5 length. obviously some see it different. but thanks for your opinion

I still think that people over complicate things about the decision between sizes. Other manufacturers don't see the 10.5 as an issue as BCM does and have made factory available weapons designed around that barrel. It all comes down to how things are spec'd out.

 

[Javelin]

I like both the 10.5" and 11.5" variants. But the whole rationale for me using an sbr is suppressed work. I personally own a 10.5" noveske as it's 100% reliable right out of the box. Once you add a AAC or surefire muzzle break the 10.5" starts approaching 12' (13" on a 11.5"). Add a suppressor and your 10.5" will be 16" OAL and that 11.5" carbine just hit 17" OAL. 10.5" is the shortest 5.56 length you can really go without sacrificing bullet stability and baffle wear on the suppressor.

Sure my 8" Noveske 300BLK is better for portability, my 16" noveske better for distance shots, but in 5.56 SBR I still believe 10.5" is king after all factors considered.

Hope this helps.

 

[jasonfaz]

OK, so here is what I did...

I went and got an inexpensive no frills 10.5 upper from radical firearms. (it was 270 shipped for a no bcg/ch upper). With this, I'll see how I like the length, and I'll be able to test out this new company and their rifles. Before they ship it, hopefully they do a good QC, because I'll probably do a review on it and post it up on forums and youtube as I haven't seen any.

now after I get this upper and play around with it, I'll get a 11.5 and play around with that.

after I figure out what I prefer more, I will sell the other one to one of the other guys at work, or put it on sale here. or just keep it to myself and put it on a pistol lower with a sig brace.

I'll let you guys know when this 10.5 comes and see how this new brand holds up to use.

I'm still very curious on the differences between a 11.5 and 10.5 for feel of weight and OAL.

Thanks to all for contributing to the thread, learned some good pointers and some good advice.

hmmm.......All right then fellas. Shit's gettin real!

Taseal, I'll make you a deal. IF you think it will help, I'd be happy to send you my 11.5" upper so you dont have to drop extra $$ dough on the comparison. The only issue i foresee would be that the 11.5 you'd be testing against is a highly tuned, very light, all out custom build, and about the best (IMO) an 11.5" will get. In exhange, if you're good sending me your 10.5", ill do the same to it and return it within a week, with identical tuning, equivelant weight per length, etc. so you can compare what would literally be a difference in barrel length and OAL with all other factors held constant. Considering I have some extra parts that I've used during the same type of comparisons, you can just keep the finished up 10.5" (carrier, handguard, gas block/gas tube, etc) and do whatever you'd like with it at the end of your testing. All i need is the upper and your 5.56 bolt. I would need my 11.5" back though after you're through . maybe 6 weeks or so if you think you can get decent testing in within that time frame? You'll only need 3 weeks or so before its a slam dunk though brother!

 

[hypno02]

I have no experience with SBR Ar's, but have always wanted one...I've learned a lot from this thread and will say that's a hell of an offer from jasonfaz. Stand up offer sir.

 

[Evolution 9]

Yep, take Jason up on this. You'll never get such a generous learning opportunity again.

 

[redirt78]

That's a hell of an offer from JFaz

 

[Birddog6424]

if it was that unimportant, BCM would have probably gone with standard 10.5 length. obviously some see it different. but thanks for your opinion .

I suppose that rebuttal would have some validity if BCM were the only authority on SBR barrel length, but they aren't. Plenty of reputable manufacturers make a 10.5" barrel. Including Noveske, Daniel Defense, Odin Works, and Primary Weapons System, off the top of my head.

I have an Odin Works 10.5" right here on the shelf behind me. I've sold tons of PWS barrels for SBR's or pistol carbines. I've shot both lengths in .223 and 300Blk on multiple platforms. There are more factors involved in how the rifle "feels" than just barrel length. But to date I have never noticed a difference between a measly one inch on a barrel. My co-worker has a Daniel Defense 10.5" that we have shot out to 550 yards on a 24" gong. It shot no better or worse than the Noveske Crusader we had there in 12.5". We shot them with cans on and off. One Gemtech G5-T and one Yankee Hill. Both were 1/7's running 62gr rounds. We were trying to walk both of those in on the 720 yard gong, but never quite got them there. They ran out of steam.

I've also shot different lengths in pistol carbine configurations, with and without the Sig brace. The new PWS Modern Musket is a great little shooter with a 10.75" barrel. No noticeable difference on barrel lengths. We've built and sold more pistol carbines with a Sig brace with all sorts of barrel lengths than you can beat with a stick since the ATF gave us the green light. The difference between the 10.5" and 11.5" is hair splitting. Not that splitting hairs is a bad thing. Lord knows we all do it. But at the end of the day, the liklihood that one inch of barrel length will make a noticeable difference is extremely slim.

So there is my more in depth contribution. My apologies for the thesis. I work in a gun shop where we specialize in AR's and the competitive shooter is pretty much our niche. So just basing my humble opinion on what I've experienced instead of what I've read on the interwebz. Take it or not for what it's worth. Never intended to ruffle feathers.

 

[benchmstr]

I'm having a very tough time deciding between a 11.5 or a 10.5 upper for my duty rifle. This is on me, so cost is a factor too. I've been eyeing adam's arms piston uppers, but PSA's 10.5 upper has really caught my attention for around 330 dollars. I already have a BCG, so it's really all I need (plus a handguard). Not a big fan of the front sight post though.

I have also looked at BCM's stuff and they supposedly from my research are top notch. their stuff come in around the same price, and you also get a BCG. The one I like is actually out of stock. (BCM Standard 11.5" Upper Receiver Group with Daniel Defense LITE RAIL II, 10" Handguard (NFA))

I've done all the research I possibly can, and just don't see the benefit (for me at least) of having that extra inch. probably 50-200 engagement distance, no suppressor, well maintained, deployment out of a vehicle all point to 10.5 uppers being sufficient for my purposes...

is there anything I've missed? perhaps the only thing drawing me back from purchase right now is that BCM seems to handle their customers better than PSA, and I could get a low profile gas block vs a front sight post gas block with psa. for 600 bucks, I'd get what I want, vs with PSA I will have to slightly modify it and that's not something I want to mess with on an SBR...

any suggestions that I might have missed guys?

PDW length has crossed my mind too, but I think I'd like slightly longer.

i run a 10.5....but for you i recommend the 11.5

i never, and i mean ever take my suppressor off...if i was just going to run a non suppressed sbr it would be 11.5, or 12.5 all day..

bench

 

[taseal]

hmmm.......All right then fellas. Shit's gettin real!

Taseal, I'll make you a deal. IF you think it will help, I'd be happy to send you my 11.5" upper so you dont have to drop extra $$ dough on the comparison. The only issue i foresee would be that the 11.5 you'd be testing against is a highly tuned, very light, all out custom build, and about the best (IMO) an 11.5" will get. In exhange, if you're good sending me your 10.5", ill do the same to it and return it within a week, with identical tuning, equivelant weight per length, etc. so you can compare what would literally be a difference in barrel length and OAL with all other factors held constant. Considering I have some extra parts that I've used during the same type of comparisons, you can just keep the finished up 10.5" (carrier, handguard, gas block/gas tube, etc) and do whatever you'd like with it at the end of your testing. All i need is the upper and your 5.56 bolt. I would need my 11.5" back though after you're through . maybe 6 weeks or so if you think you can get decent testing in within that time frame? You'll only need 3 weeks or so before its a slam dunk though brother!

That might work brother. I'll shoot you my phone number. me and the lead firearms guy were talking and we're gonna try to get everyone SBRs. I also just found out the agencies around us (few SO to the north, and couple PDs) are actually doing this right now. no wonder why a TON of these surplus rifles came in and now depts are just doing shorter barrels.

There might be few 11.5s around me, so I might be able to compare them to each other.

oh and apparently my upper already has been shipped! we have active shooter training next thu, and I have my fingers crossed my upper will be here by then. if it does, I can put it on the simunitions upper (not sure if it'l work with that BCG) and see how it is going through the buildings (we're doing it in a school and a church) with the shorter barrel.

I'm very happy with this army surplus stuff. they're decent rifles, and for very little money, you can modernize them and equip road patrol with rifles. even w/o modernization it's a GUU-5P which is the USAF M4 pretty much

 

[ZombieMonkey]

oh and apparently my upper already has been shipped! we have active shooter training next thu, and I have my fingers crossed my upper will be here by then. if it does, I can put it on the simunitions upper (not sure if it'l work with that BCG) and see how it is going through the buildings (we're doing it in a school and a church) with the shorter barrel.

You shouldn't run into any issues running simunitions through a 10.5 SBR, I've had no issues with it during trainings. Just throw the simulations bolt in and rock on.

 

[Rprecision]

12.5 anything that can be done to pick up as much FPS out of a 5.56 sbr translates into a more effective platform.

Having owned shorter I dont miss them

 

[LRRPF52]

11.5" have always worked really well for me. I can't recall ever having a malf with one, and I've owned several of them, used them in high volume, to include extreme cold weather/arctic conditions. You get ~2800fps with 55gr from 11.5" pipes, so performance loss is exaggerated by gun rag writers who have made that claim.

SOCOM is re-learning the XM177E1 lessons from the mid-1960's with the CQBR 10.3", where the gas port has to be larger to run reliably, but erosion and port pressure wreak havoc on the bolt and extractor. The solution back then was to go 11.5" with a 4.5" moderator, and thus was born the XM177E2. That set-up was ditched in favor of the 14.5" pencil barrel Model 653 Commando in the 1970's, the last of the early design Commando series. The 11.5" with 4.5" moderator already had a longer overall length, so the 14.5" barrel made sense for SOF units.

 

[taseal]

Thanks guys. The upper came in. It feels good and I'll present it to the firearms sgt mon and the chief when I get the chance. We had active shooter scenario today and unfortunately the upper got here after training was over... I'm gonna go shoot through the upper to make sure it's good to go and I'll report here. We'll also see how this new radical firearms company is. Everything looks good on it. The 10.5 doesn't feel too short so I think it's the right length.

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[steve-oh]

Nice. I never had issues with the many 10.5"s I've used. I think the problems lie with people using crappy uppers or crappy ammo. The mk18s I've shot were all DI and my personal SBRs are DI and 10.5", no issues suppressed or not.

 

[jasonfaz]

Thanks guys. The upper came in. It feels good and I'll present it to the firearms sgt mon and the chief when I get the chance. We had active shooter scenario today and unfortunately the upper got here after training was over... I'm gonna go shoot through the upper to make sure it's good to go and I'll report here. We'll also see how this new radical firearms company is. Everything looks good on it. The 10.5 doesn't feel too short so I think it's the right length.

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Good to hear brother. Looks good too. The 10" handguard is a perfect length for me too. The things that I found to improve overall feel of the 10.5" (muzzle rise, gas blowback, weight balance, etc) were 1. Switching the carrier to a heavier PWS Enhanced DI carrier, 2. Adjustable gas block, 3. Slash's UCIW buffer spring (has the perfect amount of tension), and 4. an H2 or H3 weight buffer. That 10.5 will be the only 5.56 you'll ever want to run after that.

BTW, I have spares of each component above if you want to give it a go with the ammo you're using. You've got my contact info, so just let me know. Either way though, good to see you got the hook up at such a good price. Best of luck my friend!

 

[taseal]

Good to hear brother. Looks good too. The 10" handguard is a perfect length for me too. The things that I found to improve overall feel of the 10.5" (muzzle rise, gas blowback, weight balance, etc) were 1. Switching the carrier to a heavier PWS Enhanced DI carrier, 2. Adjustable gas block, 3. Slash's UCIW buffer spring (has the perfect amount of tension), and 4. an H2 or H3 weight buffer. That 10.5 will be the only 5.56 you'll ever want to run after that.

BTW, I have spares of each component above if you want to give it a go with the ammo you're using. You've got my contact info, so just let me know. Either way though, good to see you got the hook up at such a good price. Best of luck my friend!

You're awesome man. I'm gonna see how it runs with a regular m16 BIG and the current buffer and spring. After that I'm going to start changing things one by one. Most likely get a pws fsc or triad on it too.

The 10 inch hand guard feels long. And little thick. It doesn't feel as nice as my pws keymod rail. Might need a hand stop at the bottom too.

I also realized how badly I need a flashlight from yesterday's training. Even during daylight (going from a very bright outside to a darker inside) it's needed....

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[ZombieMonkey]

You don't have a flashlight on your patrol rifle? Definitely make that priority number #1, I can't count how many times I've used that thing clearing big buildings. Very helpful.

 

[taseal]

You're 100% right. It's a huge necessity. I will be getting the streamlight tlr1 with the larger light dish. Also need a hand stop. Micro t1 would be awesome as well, but I was issued that eotech and don't want to spend that much money on a duty rifle that isn't mine. Need BUIS as well. Probably the magpul as I like those.

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[jasonfaz]

I hear you on that handguard. The quad rail design feels like you're holding a 2x4 compared to the newer, slimmer keymod tubes. Strike Industries makes a 9" and 10" 7-sided keymod for around $125 and SLR Rifleworks makes a 9" and 10" keymod handguard for around $155-160 with MIL/LE discount. Not sure if Strike has an LE discount, if they do that might get you down under $100. They're both really light though and are well over $100 cheaper than a KMR or URX4.

If you end up going keymod, I really like the handstop from Naroh Arms for around $35, or the simple KAC ones for $25.

 

[taseal]

I hear you on that handguard. The quad rail design feels like you're holding a 2x4 compared to the newer, slimmer keymod tubes. Strike Industries makes a 9" and 10" 7-sided keymod for around $125 and SLR Rifleworks makes a 9" and 10" keymod handguard for around $155-160 with MIL/LE discount. Not sure if Strike has an LE discount, if they do that might get you down under $100. They're both really light though and are well over $100 cheaper than a KMR or URX4.

If you end up going keymod, I really like the handstop from Naroh Arms for around $35, or the simple KAC ones for $25.

Both of those handguards look good. I like the SLR one, but the Strike ind is only 100 dollars. that's a good deal.

I mean nothing is wrong with the slightly thick (like my regular army M4 and Colt AR15) regular handguards, but I really like the smaller OD of the keymod. besides it'll shave off some weight too I'm sure.

edit: ah crap, that SI mega fin for 125 bucks is great, but I gotta take the gas block off to install it because of the barrel nut? Not sure if I want to mess with that stuff on the duty gun.

 

[LVMED]

My vote is for the 11.5" upper, and for what it's worth, I think you are better off using an Eotech for your line of work. I had a T1 and while the weight and finish were excellent, you will find that the dot "flares" and has a "red glare" around the dot caused by the mechanism that projects the dot if you are ever using it in sunlight or clearing a house that has it's lights on. With the Eotech the Circle and Dot set up allows quicker shots and makes adjusting your shot for distance much easier. What I mean is that the bottom of the 65moa circle will be dead on at 7 yards assuming you zeroed at 50.

*Disclaimer* I am neither an operator or someone paid to pull a trigger.

 

[taseal]

My vote is for the 11.5" upper, and for what it's worth, I think you are better off using an Eotech for your line of work. I had a T1 and while the weight and finish were excellent, you will find that the dot "flares" and has a "red glare" around the dot caused by the mechanism that projects the dot if you are ever using it in sunlight or clearing a house that has it's lights on. With the Eotech the Circle and Dot set up allows quicker shots and makes adjusting your shot for distance much easier. What I mean is that the bottom of the 65moa circle will be dead on at 7 yards assuming you zeroed at 50.

*Disclaimer* I am neither an operator or someone paid to pull a trigger.

I wish it had an auto feature like the Burris red dots with a light sensor, because these things are full bright outside, then you go inside and it's way too bright and starts to flare like you said. maybe I'll look at a Burris one. I have one on my saiga and I love it.

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[taseal]

Little update. Got our M16 lowers. All paperwork is done (they actually were registered as sbr/machine gun since they were 14.5 inch barrels) some are in better shape then some. We will be shooting them Wednesday to see how they shoot. About a mag through each rifle. Hopefully we won't have to replace too many parts.

Here is mine almost setup. Needs magpul BUIS one of those k2 grips and some type of hand stop. An opmod eotech would be nice too, but I'm not spending my dime for an eotech.

 

[Kamkaze]

any feedback from the upper?