Can't determine which DBAL and/if Illuminator I need

[UsernameRequired]

Hi everyone, came across this site a couple weeks ago. Have read a number of threads on here, some of which were around my topic. If this post needs to be moved or attached onto another thread, just let me know.

Ok, I just want to state up front... I'm "keyboard" knowledgeable on all of this. I've read a lot of info over the years, but haven't had the chance to actually field any of it. So please ignore me if I ask some stupid questions.

In any case, been wanting a good nv setup for a long time. I have known people who regretted starting with a "cheaper" setup, in the end only having invested $$ and just being disappointed with it and wish they had just saved up for better. So I have waited... and waited... and just for a change of pace I waited some more. But I finally took the dive and ordered a PVS14 WP 3rd gen 1900 FOM from JRH Enterprises. Since then I've kept thinking about it, and since I'm already spending my savings... I figured I might as well get a full setup, for which I'm looking at a DBAL for the main. Specifically the A3 D2 & I2 I've read over their pro's and cons on a number of sites. But opinions and info seem to be all over the board.

My goal is to have as Low of visibility setup as possible - obviously any nv could see it.
I want to have a range of at least 50 to 200+ yards. Would like to be able to see and identify further, in rural farm land and wooded landscapes.

I'm probably only going to have iron sights for daytime usage, as I am often better/quicker with irons than I am with a scope. Just my eyes I guess... I do have an non-nv EOTECH on one which I do like. So a visible laser would be an interesting addition.

As per many people's recommendations, i have also been considering adding the Luna-ELIR3. From what I have seen, this should add a fair amount of visibility at longer ranges, but not convinced about close range though. Even if that would be needed or under what conditions. From some images I've seen, and from what I gather to be the general consensus, laser illuminators have a much lower visibility signature than LED illuminators. But I've also read some cons of the ELIR3, such things that its mount moves around a bit, its housing is now made of plastic instead of aluminum, and at least in one case that it "blacks out" for a second when firing, etc.

Further, I'm also considering adding the Unity TAPS DBAL switch setup. But I'm not clear on what all this is able to control or in what it can independently switch, or to control two seperate devices at the same time. I do like the possibility of easily/quickly switching between, or being able to turn on/off both IR and visible lasers... But I think if I had a choice I'd rather be able to switch on IR laser, and the ability to independently switch on an IR Illuminator. Or even better yet, to have the ability to switch on/off all 3 independently. But I don't know what options I have there. I know some have a setup where one switch apparently controls both their DBAL IR laser and a separate IR Illuminator simultaneously. But I don't know if I would want an IR Illuminator "always on" everytime I use the IR laser.

Anyway, don't mean to run on. Thats just my thoughts and what I would like to accomplish. not sure what would actually work best to achieve this though. Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Having a setup with even zero IR signature is not going to keep you from being spotted by anyone with thermal. If you are moving around, anyone with NV similar to your own will spot you. If you have even a weak IR source like the one built into the PVS-14 you make it easier on them. If you use any type of IR laser or illuminator you are effectively waving around a flare.

NV is fun, and practical for navigation at night, but it doesn't make people invisible.

Without a good understanding of what you are trying to accomplish, it is hard to give opinions.

My rifle setup is a thermal scope with IR laser and PVS-14 helmet mounted. The laser is mostly so I can point out things to NV hunters that I see in my thermal.

 

[Lowdown3]

As a rule I use very little IR, but I do have a Luna on most of my rifles in case I ever need to get some illumination way out there.

When you get the unit, back the screws out of the mount a bit, then add some loc tite and screw them back in.

Mine "live" on my rifles and when I didn't do the above, the Luna would eventually (couple thousand rounds) loosen on the mount.

 

[LawnMM]

If you want to ID people at 200yds you're going to need a heavy duty illuminator like a Mawl or Dbal D2.

If you want to keep your signature down so you aren't waiving the flare you need to invest in NV height mounts for your RDS so you can aim passively, which won't be possible with irons.

If you aren't setting up your gun to aim passively AND worried about two legged prey you're doing it wrong in today's world.

Everybody has NODs and if you light up an illuminator or laser it better be to ID something you're about to shoot because SOMEONE will see it.

If you can't engage targets passively you're going to get picked off early. Having enough laser to reach 200yds is easy, having enough illuminator to reach 200yds is harder.

You're probably looking at 1200ish for a Dbal D2 and double that for a Mawl.

ETA the taps switch will allow you to fire two devices. You can set it up to fire a Dbal and a flashlight for example so if you prefer a Dbal that's laser only and you buy an aftermarket illuminator you can set up the taps to fire the laser and illuminator together with one button.

I have my NV rifle set up that way but the illuminator isn't going to reach 200yds. 50 sure, 100 maybe, beyond that forget it.

Consider how much detail you can see in daylight at 200yds and then think about doing it at night.

Even if you could light it up how much detail can you see without magnification? That's another whole rabbit hole.

 

[UsernameRequired]

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. Sorry I kinda disappeared, its been a long day....

I should have said before, I intend to have my nv helmet mounted... still have to figure out a decent helmet actually, but it does come with the head mount, probably not all that comfortable though... in any case, no i don't want to be sweeping my muzzle around just to look through a weapons mounted NODs.

Having a setup with even zero IR signature is not going to keep you from being spotted by anyone with thermal. If you are moving around, anyone with NV similar to your own will spot you. If you have even a weak IR source like the one built into the PVS-14 you make it easier on them. If you use any type of IR laser or illuminator you are effectively waving around a flare.

NV is fun, and practical for navigation at night, but it doesn't make people invisible.

Without a good understanding of what you are trying to accomplish, it is hard to give opinions.

My rifle setup is a thermal scope with IR laser and PVS-14 helmet mounted. The laser is mostly so I can point out things to NV hunters that I see in my thermal.

All good points, and yeah I understand that I can be spotted by other nods. I was mostly referring to being low vis to other entities which have no nods, not that I want to be waving a spot light around without need. I would only switch on laser/illuminator if I was targeting or needed to get a better view of something.

I bet a thermal scope is nice

As a rule I use very little IR, but I do have a Luna on most of my rifles in case I ever need to get some illumination way out there.

When you get the unit, back the screws out of the mount a bit, then add some loc tite and screw them back in.

Mine "live" on my rifles and when I didn't do the above, the Luna would eventually (couple thousand rounds) loosen on the mount.

Good to know its the screws on the mount. If I do get a Luna I'll make sure to take your advice.
I use loctite a lot in the shop. These days I prefer the loctite 290, more versatile for my uses. Its actually designed for adding after parts have already been assembled, and does really well in that application as it wicks right down the threads. But it also works really well across a wide range of applications, from normal thread lock down to sealing threads on fuel and air fittings. Does a much better job than using tape. Learned about it from a professional welder. Been using it ever since.

If you want to ID people at 200yds you're going to need a heavy duty illuminator like a Mawl or Dbal D2.

If you want to keep your signature down so you aren't waiving the flare you need to invest in NV height mounts for your RDS so you can aim passively, which won't be possible with irons.

If you aren't setting up your gun to aim passively AND worried about two legged prey you're doing it wrong in today's world.

Everybody has NODs and if you light up an illuminator or laser it better be to ID something you're about to shoot because SOMEONE will see it.

If you can't engage targets passively you're going to get picked off early. Having enough laser to reach 200yds is easy, having enough illuminator to reach 200yds is harder.

You're probably looking at 1200ish for a Dbal D2 and double that for a Mawl.

ETA the taps switch will allow you to fire two devices. You can set it up to fire a Dbal and a flashlight for example so if you prefer a Dbal that's laser only and you buy an aftermarket illuminator you can set up the taps to fire the laser and illuminator together with one button.

I have my NV rifle set up that way but the illuminator isn't going to reach 200yds. 50 sure, 100 maybe, beyond that forget it.

Consider how much detail you can see in daylight at 200yds and then think about doing it at night.

Even if you could light it up how much detail can you see without magnification? That's another whole rabbit hole.

When I said ID, what I meant was to be able to ID "what" it was. Like a person, bear, coyote/dog, etc. And that may be what you are meaning as well.
And yes a magnifier would be needed to see much detail at distance, and I'm sure that can entail entire threads on its own.

Good info on the riser mounts, something I hadn't considered. Will have to think about this more. One question I would have is I currently only have an Non-NV Eotech. Would it be of any use with NV at all? I'm guessing no.

On the taps, that is basically what I understood it to be, thanks for the clarification. Didn't know if it could be used in other arrangements besides just a "2 for 1" type setup.

From what I've read, the overall consensus is the Mawl is the top of the line. But it is also quite a bit more $ too. At the same time have to consider its abilities v/s the price of a Dbal + attachments to do similar ability, but even then probably not as good. Kind of comes back to the 'buy all at once', or 'build it as I go'. My problem is that I still need to understand what I need to meet my 'purpose', in order to make a decision on what hardware would be required to meet that purpose.

Basically what I am looking to accomplish is to have a setup that I can see movement of possible threats at distance. And be able to follow that if it continues to get closer, and then be able to identify specifics at closer ranges of say 100 yards down to 50 yards. I am leaning more so to be less visible to naked eye/non-nv. But I also don't want to be lighting up a flare when i don't need too.

I live in a rural farm area with multiple farmers who own large acreage of open fields/pastures, as well as hundreds of acres of woods in the area with about 15 acres of woods on my property. And this is besides the national forest that is nearby. We have bears, mountain lions, bobcats and packs of coyotes, which I do want to ID at a distance mostly to stay away from and/or to keep them away from house and my few livestock. But yes, the two legged varmints is my main concern, as we've already had multiple issues. And that is likely to just continue to increase, especially with what is going to happen in the days/months ahead.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Everyone likes the Luna-ELIR3 because they take the filter off, making it far more powerful and dangerous than the civilian strength units. Understand that the civilian level units are weak and the unfiltered/ Military grade stuff can cause permanent eye damage if you point it at eyes from too close with the beam too narrow.

I like my ELIR-3, it dims so you don't wash out everything, you can focus beam width, so it doubles as a laser marker and you can aim the beam. It moves around on picatinny, so mine is setup for a rifle, but often lives on my helmet.

Get any decent IR AND visable laser aiming device. The visable is important so you can sight in the IR, by sighting in the visable to your iron sights.

If people wander onto your property with NV, marking them with an IR laser will probably convince them to move on to other areas. If you don't want to be pointing a weapon at them you can use the LUNA dimmed down.

 

[GreenMushroom]

If your referring to the faint red glow put out by the led ir illuminators I don't think it's an issue. There's some video out there showing it from different angles and distances. I don't have a d2 but have a tlr 850mw led and the red glow is only noticeable from straight ahead at very short ranges. Imo if your practicing proper ir discipline it won't be noticed in the brief amount of time it's on.

 

[UsernameRequired]

Everyone likes the Luna-ELIR3 because they take the filter off, making it far more powerful and dangerous than the civilian strength units. Understand that the civilian level units are weak and the unfiltered/ Military grade stuff can cause permanent eye damage if you point it at eyes from too close with the beam too narrow.

I like my ELIR-3, it dims so you don't wash out everything, you can focus beam width, so it doubles as a laser marker and you can aim the beam. It moves around on picatinny, so mine is setup for a rifle, but often lives on my helmet.

Get any decent IR AND visable laser aiming device. The visable is important so you can sight in the IR, by sighting in the visable to your iron sights.

If people wander onto your property with NV, marking them with an IR laser will probably convince them to move on to other areas. If you don't want to be pointing a weapon at them you can use the LUNA dimmed down.

Yeah, I have seen people talking about taking off the filter. But like you said, it does make it more dangerous.

Since your ELIR3 is helmet mounted, do you just use its "regular" switch?

Yes, I have thought about the advantages to using a unit that has the visible laser slaved to the IR laser. It would make for sighting in much easier and faster. Especially if you had to move it to a different weapon for some reason.

I had thought about using the visible laser to mark non-nv to quickly convince them to move on. For some reason I hadn't given much thought to using IR to mark possible nv as a deterrent. Marking with IR first could also get them to react which would show if they have nv to begin with.

If your referring to the faint red glow put out by the led ir illuminators I don't think it's an issue. There's some video out there showing it from different angles and distances. I don't have a d2 but have a tlr 850mw led and the red glow is only noticeable from straight ahead at very short ranges. Imo if your practicing proper ir discipline it won't be noticed in the brief amount of time it's on.

After thinking about it, you are correct. if a threat is at close enough range to see the red glow, well either you should have already engaged the threat, or have marked them much earlier as a deterrent.
I do have security cameras and game camera with nv leds. Of course they are far inferior and only short distance. But my security cameras do have a red glow, but even with them, if I didn't know where they were I would be unlikely to see them. Or at least not until I was very close to them.

And of course none of this matters if potential target has nv, and yes that is especially where ir discipline comes in.


Thanks for the replies guys. Got to get to work, going to be another long day.