Range Report Cant Hold a Group!!!!

[Jackalope33B]

I can hold a constant .5-.75moa 3-5 shot group at 100 yards. But Fu*k me, when I extend it out to 200 yards, Im lucky to get a 2-4" grouping. Whats the issue here?

 

[jhelmuth]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

How about the conditions and optics (including your vision)?

Just suggestions to consider...

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Conditions are a clear and sunny day. Optics is a NF 5-22x56 scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jim helmuth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about the conditions and optics (including your vision)?

Just suggestions to consider... </div></div>

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

quit flinching??

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

If I was flinching, wouldnt it show up at 100yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">quit flinching?? </div></div>

 

[Augustus]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

What Rd are you shooting, load, projectile, twist rate.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

.308, 175SMK, Win Brass, Fed 210M, 44.2 Varget, seated .10 off the lands, Twist rate is either 10 or 10.25 (I get different measurements everytime I go to measure the twist rate), Barrel length is 22".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Rd are you shooting, load, projectile, twist rate. </div></div>

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

What kind of target are you shooting at 200 yards? If you shoot well at 100 then all things equal you should do well at 200 unless you are psyching yourself out at 200. I would add that your follow through maybe lacking at 200. Hard to tell without being there but maybe you can get someone to film you. That way you can diagnose your issues.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

1" orange circle targets. Same ones I use for 100 yards.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of target are you shooting at 200 yards? If you shoot well at 100 then all things equal you should do well at 200 unless you are psyching yourself out at 200. I would add that your follow through maybe lacking at 200. Hard to tell without being there but maybe you can get someone to film you. That way you can diagnose your issues. </div></div>

 

[GardDog]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

How many rounds do you launch at 100 yds prior to moving to 200 yds? Before I put a brake on my rifle, I'd shoot great until I got 50 or so rounds fired. I was unconsciously putting the rifle in a different spot on my shoulder & effing up my POI after shooting for awhile. The brake helped me greatly.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

It varied from time to time.. At no time was I tired of shooting, or getting fatigued.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many rounds do you launch at 100 yds prior to moving to 200 yds? Before I put a brake on my rifle, I'd shoot great until I got 50 or so rounds fired. I was unconsciously putting the rifle in a different spot on my shoulder & effing up my POI after shooting for awhile. The brake helped me greatly. </div></div>

 

[bastard5]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I can't think of any ballistics that would cause that. You have good fundamentals? Mine ALWAYS suffer when I get frustrated.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

In general, the further out you go, the more a group will "open up". Having said that, going from 0.5-0.75 MOA at 100 yd to 2-4" at 200 yd is a lot more than you'd expect, all else being equal. The most likely culprit would be the driver, although it's impossible to say it couldn't be an equipment-related issue just from reading what you wrote.

The easiest way to check is to have someone else you know shoots well try it and see how they do at 100 and 200 yd. If someone else can get groupings with your setup that are a lot closer at 200 yd (MOA) to what they print at 100 yd, there's your likely answer. If that turns out to be the case, you might consider trying Lowlight's Dot Drill (link below). I find it very helpful for practicing fundamentals.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435190&page=1

 

[BK7saum]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Is the group still round or more horizontal. Wind becomes more of a factor out further.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Its just all over the place. Have not noticed any one pattern

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BLK7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the group still round or more horizontal. Wind becomes more of a factor out further. </div></div>

 

[dlklamfo]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Do you always start at 100 and then move to 200? Does the same happen if you start at 200? Trying to use process of elimination to see if its fatigue.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I may shoot 10-15 at 100, then move it back to 200
After 5-10 rounds, im frustrated, then move back to 100 where im happy again lol

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1" orange circle targets. Same ones I use for 100 yards.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of target are you shooting at 200 yards? If you shoot well at 100 then all things equal you should do well at 200 unless you are psyching yourself out at 200. I would add that your follow through maybe lacking at 200. Hard to tell without being there but maybe you can get someone to film you. That way you can diagnose your issues. </div></div></div></div> Try a 2" orange circle target at 200

 

[HarryCallahan]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Have you adjusted the parallax for 200 when you move to that range? The reticle moving around from improperly adjusted parallax could give the symptoms you describe.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Care to post pics of said groups and targets? It would probably be a little easier to diagnose an issue and eliminate other possibilities.

 

[bassani]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was flinching, wouldnt it show up at 100yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">quit flinching?? </div></div> </div></div>

the further the bullet has to travel, the more dramatic the effects of flinching

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Here are pics of todays range day. All are 3 shot groups at 200 yards. I did have my YHM Phantom Suppressor attached to the rifle during this test period.

175gr SMK seated to 2.245 +/- (.10 off the lands)
44.2gr Varget
Win Brass
Fed 210M
Barrel is 22" 1:10 twist
NF 5-22x56
Atlas Bipod & Rear Bag on Butt Stock

If anyone has that program that measure MOA, by all means use my pics.
The TOP targets are 3", the BOTTOM target is 2" The second target is by far the best group I have ever shot at 200 yards!!

 

[Mutt]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Close enough for govt work...
Based on 3" edge-edge BC pastie at 200. Didn't even attempt the blurry one.
Either wind or npa was effing with you on that one...it screwed with your camera shot too

 

[supersniper]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Try shooting a different target that isn't orange.

At times the orange bull gets a little squirrely in the scope - maybe a 2" black bull shoot-n-see center.

 

[HonkeyMcGee88]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I used to have the same problem and it was the paralax. I had always used it as a focus until someone explained to me that's not what it is meant for. Fixed it and shot a dime size group at 200 that day.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Notice how the 2 are triangle shaped? Thats what you want, except tighter. Have you tried different loads or powder? Gun seems to be accurate enough, you just need to work with your load imo.

I had the same problem, just wasnt getting them tight, but adjusted my powder

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

So Im shooting a .29MOA on the first Target?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Close enough for govt work...

</div></div>

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I have tried diff powders and loads. Varget "seemed" to be the best groupings. My FPS is around 2675 +/-.. I was talking to a guy at the Range and he said it was too fast for a 22" barrel with 175SMK's.. I needed to be about 2600, maybe a little under..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CleanMoostang</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Notice how the 2 are triangle shaped? Thats what you want, except tighter. Have you tried different loads or powder? Gun seems to be accurate enough, you just need to work with your load imo.

I had the same problem, just wasnt getting them tight, but adjusted my powder </div></div>

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

McGee,

What exactly did you do wrt parallax?

Where/what did u focus on instead?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was talking to a guy at the Range and he said it was too fast for a 22" barrel with 175SMK's.. I needed to be about 2600, maybe a little under..</div></div>

I don't know if this applies but I'll throw it in for shits and grins.

I use to dabble into international rifle shooting. The 308 was used back then as the primary 300 Meter Rifle. (Three position).

Don't remember where I read it, but in 300 M ISU shooting it was determined that 2200 fps was the most accurate speed for the 308 using 168 grn SMKs and Hornady Match.

I tried it on my M1A heavy match and it did seem to be more accurate then the standard 2550 fps load, except it wouldn't always work the action. Fine for slow fire, but sucked in rapid fire.

You might go to the CMP site and e-mail Gary Anderson. He was a wiz at 300 Meter ISU, certainly got enough gold metals in ISU, including setting the record for 300 Meter stand which still holds today.

I did ask him about his load, said it doesn't matter as long as he used 168 Hornady's. (All rifles are different, my M1A likes the SMK better then the Hornady's, but I'm not Gary Anderson).

Anyway, try reducing your velocity to 2200 fps and see what happens.

 

[Graham]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

That's interesting. Because Sierra did some accuracy testing a while back (meaning in the 80s and 90s) on the 168 SMK. The best accuracy was found to be far below 2500fps.

 

[HonkeyMcGee88]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Flyboy when I would switch from say 100 to 200 I would use the paralax to just get the target as clear as possible. Someone then explained to me that is not its purpose and with a little adjustment I still had a clear target but without any moving crosshairs. Looked online later and it seems quite a few people make this same mistake when starting out.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was talking to a guy at the Range and he said it was too fast for a 22" barrel with 175SMK's.. I needed to be about 2600, maybe a little under..</div></div>

I don't know if this applies but I'll throw it in for shits and grins.

I use to dabble into international rifle shooting. The 308 was used back then as the primary 300 Meter Rifle. (Three position).

Don't remember where I read it, but in 300 M ISU shooting it was determined that 2200 fps was the most accurate speed for the 308 using 168 grn SMKs and Hornady Match.

I tried it on my M1A heavy match and it did seem to be more accurate then the standard 2550 fps load, except it wouldn't always work the action. Fine for slow fire, but sucked in rapid fire.

You might go to the CMP site and e-mail Gary Anderson. He was a wiz at 300 Meter ISU, certainly got enough gold metals in ISU, including setting the record for 300 Meter stand which still holds today.

I did ask him about his load, said it doesn't matter as long as he used 168 Hornady's. (All rifles are different, my M1A likes the SMK better then the Hornady's, but I'm not Gary Anderson).

Anyway, try reducing your velocity to 2200 fps and see what happens.
</div></div> I agree:even if I'm not a former 3P, my bigger shooting smiles comes often after "not-full-throttle" reloadings_ Beside that, I think reasonable to place at 200 a black disk of the preferred diam.,triyng to REDUCE the time wasted to focus-and-refocus your eye on a properly focused reticle_I say that because,if your effort to see better-and-better is too much,you forgive that your eyesight REAL clarity after 5 or 6 seconds is gone,and after those 5 sec.you squeeze the trigger following only the last image impressed on the retina and perceived by the brain,but this it's the picture of seconds ago,and in this time you can have moved,expired,inspired,or anything:your position can be slightly changed,but your brain is still on few seconds ago...In this case,STOP_relax,close your eyes,see the grass around you,and try again,not for more than 5sec._ this works for me,and works even more dramatically with anschuetz or L1A1 peep sights_ The black disk on white paper is because if you work for testing the rifle,your mind must be focused on the fundamentals,not on the previous hole:if your rifle/scope/reloads/ are ok and the fundamentals are respected,a tighter group will be the logical consequence_ (I hope, but,like the real WileCoyote, I never stop to try)_Forgive my bad grammar,please_

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

...I hope be clear that all my rap was addressed to Jackalope, not to mr.Stuart,of course_ best regards

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

McGee,

Where/what do you focus on then if not on the target?

It's gotten better, but i still have unexplained fliers...i can go back to 100yards and have all bullets touching without fliers, but its no longer a challenge.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Today was probably the worst day ever EVER!!
I loaded up some 178 Hornady AMAX with 42.0 & 42.5gr of Varget. Out of 20 rounds, I didnt hit a 1" circle at 100 yards! My best MOA was prob 1.0.. My velocity varied from 2540-2600fps. I had a few sticky bolts, and several what seemed to be ejector marks on the brass along with some brass that looks like brass on the case head was sheared off. Here are the pics of the brass. Let me know what you think..
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

and more pics............

 

[1791PrecisionArmory]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I never had luck with FC brass. Also, FC brass has less case capacity so watch pressures. Ejector marks would be sign of too much pressure to me.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Today was probably the worst day ever EVER!!
I loaded up some 178 Hornady AMAX with 42.0 & 42.5gr of Varget. Out of 20 rounds, I didnt hit a 1" circle at 100 yards! My best MOA was prob 1.0.. My velocity varied from 2540-2600fps. I had a few sticky bolts, and several what seemed to be ejector marks on the brass along with some brass that looks like brass on the case head was sheared off. Here are the pics of the brass. Let me know what you think..
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!
</div></div>

42gr of Varget is pretty light. The primer cup looks fine and alitle flow into the firing pin hole is nothing to be alarmed about. Nore is a few light ejector marks on soft Rem brass. Nuttin alarming there. I don't think pressure is your issue.

I (and many, many others) have loaded 1000's of .308 in Rem brass with great results if you ignore it's short lifetime. I would not initially suspect the brass.

Are all your loads FL resized? Have you loaded any once-fired in that rifle w/o any sizing prep?
Any issues on closing the bolt, (vs. opening)?
What was the COAL?
New chamber? Rifle? Any history to help?
What is your comfort level with the Chrono's output?
Have you run any FGMM or simular factory loads at same time or recently?

Just trying to narrow it down a bit for everyone's feedback.

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I hate listening to people complain about accuracy with 3 shot groups...

Now I'm just kinda skimming this thread, but your groups that you posted on the 3" orange circle at 200 yards are not that bad at all. Not sure where the pictures of the 2-4" groups are, but the ones posted are fine.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

The 42gr is light. I wanted to get my velocity down to around 2550-2575. I was using 44.2 on a 175 SMK with velocity around 2675. Got a "few" ejector marks, but nothing like today.
The brass Im using is Winchester. NOT remington. Closing the bolt is the same as opening it. Except the ones with the sticky bolt.
The "manufacturer" did botch my rifle. I had to send it to another smith to get it fixed. The headspace was way off, the chamber was "rough", there was paint or epoxy on the barrel recoil lug, and there was .005 of runout on the front of the receiver. I did run some FGMM, Hornady through it. Wasnt real happy with the outcome. COAL is 2.812, Ogive length was 2.188 (.010 off the lands). These rounds were fired with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boomholzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

42gr of Varget is pretty light. The primer cup looks fine and alitle flow into the firing pin hole is nothing to be alarmed about. Nore is a few light ejector marks on soft Rem brass. Nuttin alarming there. I don't think pressure is your issue.

I (and many, many others) have loaded 1000's of .308 in Rem brass with great results if you ignore it's short lifetime. I would not initially suspect the brass.

Are all your loads FL resized? Have you loaded any once-fired in that rifle w/o any sizing prep?
Any issues on closing the bolt, (vs. opening)?
What was the COAL?
New chamber? Rifle? Any history to help?
What is your comfort level with the Chrono's output?
Have you run any FGMM or simular factory loads at same time or recently?

Just trying to narrow it down a bit for everyone's feedback. </div></div>

 

[HarryBallz2029]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

what kind of rifle, stock etc... is it bedded...

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

AX chassis, not bedded.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Brain fart. I meant Federal in both aspects. I had read the thread on Winchester brass and looked through the F-C headstamp photos. Had my own .260 brass issues on the brain.

If decent factory loads ill, that rules out reloading. So it goes back to basics or there is still a chamber or fit-to-stock issue present as another poster suggested.

 

[D_TROS]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

I wouldn't be switching loads in middle of a shooting error diagnostic session. you are introducing too many variables. also the smk's are a little more shooter/repoader friendly I think. stick with those.

having said that, and knowing night force parralax knob is just marked with dash lines, I will reiterate what others have said that you have not responded to, the parralax knob is not a focus knob. vastly understating its use, it is used to keep your rect from bouncing around when you don't have a perfect cheek weld.

search how to properly adjust it, that and proper mechanics. horizontal stringing is always shooter induced.

regard,
DT

 

[Mutt]

Re: Cant Hold a Group!!!!

Anyone with QuickLoad want to run these numbers and post your findings here? (if it's "legal" to do so) I ran Jackalope's numbers through QL and have some funky outputs that don't seem to jive with the pressures he encountered. I'm curious to see what you all come up with.

22" barrel
178 Amax
COAL 2.812
VARGET 42 gn and 42.5 gn
.308 WIN (SAAMI)

175 SMK
COAL 2.830
VARGET 44.2 gn
.308 WIN (SAAMI)

At default values (burn rate, start pressure, bullet dims., h20 capacity, weighting factor, etc)



(***I'd think it would be alright to post it here in this case as I have the program and I'm simply looking to compare the output to mine.***)