Carbine Rifle - not AR platform

[BytorJr]

So for a long time I've considered a rifle I could put into a travel bag for road trips in case SHTF along the way (riots, gangs, whatever). As a size reference, something like a small suitcase, but not carry-on sized and packed with normal clothing.

Caveat is it cannot be a SBR.

So, I've been considering the following:
M1 Carbine (paratrooper)
CZ Scorpion
PS90
Nothing

My initial thoughts:

1) 30 Carbine -
a) Obviously the 30 carbine has the most power of anything on my list, and whilst maligned for "lack of stopping power" the ballistics at < 100 yards do not pan that out.
b) If I was comfortable with a "new" Inland or Auto-Ordnance I may be in; that said, I hear their reliability is awful. Then I could go the Fulton Armory route for major $$.
c) 30 round magazines may or may not be reliable.

2) CZ Scorpion (V3)
a) downside is it shoots 9mm, upside is they are available
b) have the looming "is it a SBR question hanging over them."
c) not much improvement over typical handgun

3) PS90
a) SHORT, very short with full length 16" barrel. (again, no SBR).
b) 50 rounds. But, 50 rounds of what more reliable 22 WMR?
c) Different manual of arms with the magazine.

4) Do nothing, buy more ammo.

 

[msgriff]

Although based on the AR platform, have you looked at the BRN-180 16"?

 

[tt123]

I'd go for the M1 Carbine, mind you I've got one myself, so I might be biased.

Another option may be the Ruger PC carbine? They seem to get good reviews, and can be taken down, so should fit in your suitcase no problem.

 

[BCP]

Well for one thing you want to make sure it's legal wherever you are going. My pick would be a pistol of some kind.

 

[BytorJr]

I'm partial to the 30 carbine myself. The Ruger PC seems underpowered. If I were to proceed it'd either have to have much more power than a 9mm handgun, or lot's more magazine capacity; otherwise, handgun accomplishes most of same thing. Folks seem to forget 30 carbine a little bit more powerful that 357 magnum and nobody says that's underpowered. Realizing of course this isn't a gun for > 150 yards at best.

The PS90 rings every box I like EXCEPT that it's diminutive Ammo. The bullets are fast and there's a lot of ammo to get you hopefully to a safe spot should something SHTF happen whist in your away from home.

I almost went in on the surplus M1's not too long ago, but they were such an unknown in quality. The "New Inland" is supposed to be pretty decent, yet, that's from gun rags. And I'd want to paratrooper it or maybe something like the Choat stock.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

For what its worth I think you would be served better by running a more substantial carry gun and simply carrying extra ammo/mags. In any situation like this you should be more focused on either waiting out the night or leaving town via some vehicle. If you are that concerned about the potential for an apocalyptic situation like this to arise in the area you should be factoring that into your planning in the first place. In an event you need to use deadly force anyway it is overwhelmingly more likely that you need the gun immediately and not in a "let me run to my suitcase first" situation.

That being said if I personally had to carry a non rifle caliber weapon (in a bag) into some sort of shit-uation, I would go with my APC9 or another similar braced quality PCC.

In a more practical form I would choose the Ruger PC9 with the glock mag well. Now I can worry about one type of ammo and mag between both systems, assuming I conceal a glock as well. A pistol may be on par with the SMG/PCC for power (kinda), but under stress an most people will be significantly more competent with the carbine, especially with a red dot. By the time you add a good self-defense ammo, you have a serious defensive weapon with 30 round mags, that you can probably shoot more accurately and faster than a handgun.

Other options I can think of might be a the KSG shotgun, assuming you are willing to train up with it.

 

[Lange Carabine]

I'm partial to the 30 carbine myself. The Ruger PC seems underpowered. If I were to proceed it'd either have to have much more power than a 9mm handgun, or lot's more magazine capacity; otherwise, handgun accomplishes most of same thing. Folks seem to forget 30 carbine a little bit more powerful that 357 magnum and nobody says that's underpowered. Realizing of course this isn't a gun for > 150 yards at best.

The PS90 rings every box I like EXCEPT that it's diminutive Ammo. The bullets are fast and there's a lot of ammo to get you hopefully to a safe spot should something SHTF happen whist in your away from home.

I almost went in on the surplus M1's not too long ago, but they were such an unknown in quality. The "New Inland" is supposed to be pretty decent, yet, that's from gun rags. And I'd want to paratrooper it or maybe something like the Choat stock.

In mil spec form the 30 carbine round is sorely lacking in the terminal ballistic department.
The 110gr fmj rn bullet is slow and remains very stable in soft tissue so primary and secondary wound channels are small.
Given a good expanding bullet, the 30 carbine is a whole nuther ball game.
I've killed piles of deer, hogs and some things that are best left nameless over the last 35 years with one.
It has nearly double the muzzle energy of a 357 fired from a 6" barrel, but from an equal length barrel the 357 has a fair edge.
Other than a blue sky import I'd take a usgi carbine any day over a new inland, or a universal. My 77yo Winchester still runs like a top.
They may be ok now, but the early new inlands had lots of problems.
Universals always were junk.
The iver johnson I had was every bit as good as its usgi counterpart.
IJ also made a pistol version called the enforcer, iirc.

 

[308pirate]

@BytorJr IWI Tavor and done.

A proven rifle, in a real rifle caliber, not an SBR, super compact.

And put a red dot sight on it. It's the 21st century.

 

[...]

other potential options:

• Grand Power Stribog
• AK pistol variant
• Mossberg Shockwave
• 16" AR with the upper removed from the lower
• Glock in a RONI chassis

honestly, i might look at the Mossberg Shockwave with a folding brace or the GP Stribog

 

[sam4886]

Mag fed 870 or 500 would clear some room.

Primary arms has zpap m92 on sale right now.

Bull pup like the tavor that 308pirate mentioned was the first thing that came to mind after I read the OP.

Full size pistol with a few full size mags.

 

[hafejd30]

I’ll vote Tavor

I’m a 556 platform guy myself. The ability to share mags with basically any LE agency is part of the reason. Also component availability’s etc etc

That said I carry a scorpion as well. But don’t consider it a great idea as a primary gun due to the ability of body armor and even the lack of penetration in heavy clothing during winter months. Also limits range from the get go

Recently acquired a shockwave. With buckshot this thing would be devastating to take a hit from. But your limited to 5-6 rounds in the gun

My preference goes to a 556 platform that uses common AR mags. Also prefer a a 16” barrel for increased velocity for the round. I do have a 556 SBR I carry often as well. Just for reference the 556 rounds are between 2400-2500 FPS from the muzzle on the 10.5” barrel

So standard 556 for me. Until I get a Tavor

 

[308pirate]

Why not a DD 300BO PDW?

DDM4® PDW (300 Blackout)

Compact and easy to transport, the DDM4 PDW is the kind of AR15 style pistol you can rely on for home and personal defense...plus it's a ton of fun to shoot. The 7 inch 300 Blackout Cold Hammer Forged barrel keeps subsonic loads subsonic and provides great ballistics for a shorter barrel. The...

danieldefense.com

What part of "no AR platform" did you miss?

 

[BytorJr]

Mag fed 870 or 500 would clear some room.

Primary arms has zpap m92 on sale right now.

Bull pup like the tavor that 308pirate mentioned was the first thing that came to mind after I read the OP.

Full size pistol with a few full size mags.

That Tavor does look interesting. Like that it's STANAG magazine and 223. Granted, I could also do an AUG . The full size pistol is my regular travel friend, so that's covered.

 

[Aftermath]

CNCGUNSMITHING - www.cncguns.com - AR45

It's an AR platform, sorta. I built 2. Both have worked flawlessly. I sold one about 3 months ago for WAAAAAY more than I had into it.

 

[BytorJr]

I could just stick with my 14.5+flash hider and call it wonderful. . Was just seeing if I have missed the obvious. Too bad the 805 Bren isn't still available. That looks like it collapses quite a bit (stock at least0.

 

[Jackalope]

I know we’re in semi-auto rifles but a Winchester 1892 in .357 might fit the bill. Slim, light and legal everywhere. The trapper takedown is a cool little package but spendy.

 

[BullGear]

If you don't want an AR style firearm, I'd recommend something like an MKE (Zenith) MP5 pistol knockoff. I believe it's a Z-5RS. They usually run really well, mags are still available and I think it makes for a great trunk gun.

 

[thehun]

This gun is so well made and I love it...easy to transport...great accuracy and ergos...if you want something in 5.56/.300BO

However to me an all-around great rifle is a M1A with standard profile barrel, 18"...USGI Walnut or Fiberglass stock...a 2-10ish optic...and go...its one of the quickest rifles I have to go 0-400M believe it or not...

APTUS

We set a new standard for covert, concealable, accurate firearms; building each handcrafted rifle one at a time. DRD Tactical. Discreet. Reliable. Precise.

drdtactical.com

 

[Son of Dorn]

Of your list, M1 Carbine.

How 'bout a Mini-14?

 

[GUNNER10]

So for a long time I've considered a rifle I could put into a travel bag for road trips in case SHTF along the way (riots, gangs, whatever). As a size reference, something like a small suitcase, but not carry-on sized and packed with normal clothing.

Caveat is it cannot be a SBR.

So, I've been considering the following:
M1 Carbine (paratrooper)
CZ Scorpion
PS90
Nothing

My initial thoughts:

1) 30 Carbine -
a) Obviously the 30 carbine has the most power of anything on my list, and whilst maligned for "lack of stopping power" the ballistics at < 100 yards do not pan that out.
b) If I was comfortable with a "new" Inland or Auto-Ordnance I may be in; that said, I hear their reliability is awful. Then I could go the Fulton Armory route for major $$.
c) 30 round magazines may or may not be reliable.

2) CZ Scorpion (V3)
a) downside is it shoots 9mm, upside is they are available
b) have the looming "is it a SBR question hanging over them."
c) not much improvement over typical handgun

3) PS90
a) SHORT, very short with full length 16" barrel. (again, no SBR).
b) 50 rounds. But, 50 rounds of what more reliable 22 WMR?
c) Different manual of arms with the magazine.

4) Do nothing, buy more ammo.

I can only offer two things.

One, that I have a Scorpion Carbine and really like it. Very fun, reliable, and accurate.

Two, 9mm has probably taken more urban game than the other two calibers by a country mile.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Have you thought about a Tavor?
Those are pretty short comparatively.

Also there is the SIG MCX which folds the stock and packs down small.

There is also something like the Ruger Takedown AR that comes apart and goes back together quickly.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I'd go for the M1 Carbine, mind you I've got one myself, so I might be biased.

Another option may be the Ruger PC carbine? They seem to get good reviews, and can be taken down, so should fit in your suitcase no problem.

The M1 Carbine is getting to be old tech and the collector values are starting to skyrocket.

The Ruger PC Carbine would be my choice. A 125 +P out of a 16" barrel would be nothing to sneeze at.

 

[BytorJr]

I can only offer two things.

One, that I have a Scorpion Carbine and really like it. Very fun, reliable, and accurate.

Two, 9mm has probably taken more urban game than the other two calibers by a country mile.

I like the scorpion carbine (assuming we're talking the 223). Not thrilled with the $$ though. The Evo still looks like a front runner even though I know I said I didn't want a "braced" pistol. That said, the Sig MCX Virtrus fits a lot of the bills (300 or 5.56) and has the folder brace which is probably the most critical thing.

Tavor. Too heavy. Apparently weighted heavily in rear too. Never held one. I have held the little pup PS90 and they actually are quite ergonomic. Looking at ballistics last night and coming out of the 16" barrel it's about like a 9mm in energy, with a shit ton more velocity. Big negative is ammo too expensive and not sold on any stopping power (granted at 25 yards it's still packing a lot of energy); though it definitely is a PDW by definition. Not to mention different manual of arms.

Thanks for all the input fellas. More food for thought.

 

[hypno02]

Definitely nothing from your list. Limiting yourself to rifles is very hindering. Galil ace/Cz Bren/scar and get a bigger backpack?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Krink.

But you will have to buy an an Adidas track suit.

Sirhr

 

[hlee]

Of the three, I own a Korean War vintage M1 carbine. The South Korean 30 round magazines have been reliable, though the one pro mag 30 that I have is shit. Mil Surplus 15 rounders are great. The “paratrooper” stock I bought for it doesn’t fit- the barrel channels seems mis-aligned- but a real vintage paratroooer stock with folding butt stock would put the M1 at the top of my list…

 

[Thorbeast]

Aug or tavor... Rifle caliber, 16" barrel with a OAL similar to a SBR AR. Easy to mount optics and lights. You probably already have mags and ammo.

CZ bren 2 has really impressed me from a weight and ergonomic perspective, but it won't be as compact (unfolded) as the Aug or tavor.

I'm not sure why someone would choose a pistol caliber weapon when modern, compact, rifle caliber carbines are available.

 

[Jcmar15]

Have you though about a lever gun? Not as easy to hide as some of the others that have been mentioned, but if you’re using it for travel I’m pretty sure a 30-30 lever gun is 50 state legal and with a 16 inch barrel pretty handy.

 

[srt-4_uk]

How 'bout a Mini-14?

I know he didn't list it, but I'm sure one of his requirements is actually being able to hit something with it.

 

[BytorJr]

Yikes, those MPX are pricey. If I went that route, I'd likely go 300 BLK, though I have none of that. Makes more sense in that pistol setup.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Robinson XCR pistol with 7" barrel.

Tavor X95

 

[308pirate]

Get a pistol version of this.

What part of no AR platforms did you miss?

 

[308pirate]

Krink.

But you will have to buy an an Adidas track suit.

Sirhr

@THEIS can supply both

 

[308pirate]

This gun is so well made and I love it...easy to transport...great accuracy and ergos...if you want something in 5.56/.300BO

However to me an all-around great rifle is a M1A with standard profile barrel, 18"...USGI Walnut or Fiberglass stock...a 2-10ish optic...and go...its one of the quickest rifles I have to go 0-400M believe it or not...

APTUS

We set a new standard for covert, concealable, accurate firearms; building each handcrafted rifle one at a time. DRD Tactical. Discreet. Reliable. Precise.

drdtactical.com

The OP doesn't want an AR platform

 

[308pirate]

I'm not sure why someone would choose a pistol caliber weapon when modern, compact, rifle caliber carbines are available.

+1,000,000

 

[Shooter McGavin]

This one looks awesome

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Someone flash the 3 stripe signal for help...

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Big_Kumar]

I have an AK with an underfolding stock that I take with me sometimes. The underfolding stock is nice because it doesn’t add any width to the profile when collapsed unlike the side folders. When it is extended it handles like a normal AK, but the cheek weld isn’t great. Mags and ammo are generally pretty easy to find, and it is ballistically better than a pistol round.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I have an AK with an underfolding stock that I take with me sometimes. The underfolding stock is nice because it doesn’t add any width to the profile when collapsed unlike the side folders. When it is extended it handles like a normal AK, but the cheek weld isn’t great. Mags and ammo are generally pretty easy to find, and it is ballistically better than a pistol round.

View attachment 7691292

 

[BullGear]

MP5 style weapon would be the best. Compact, can get the pistol with a folding stock. Mags are small enough you can carry a lot of ammo. You can actually carry these with the gun and 5-6 mags in something about the size of a laptop bag. As long as you buy an HK rip off, the parts are plentiful. Can buy a can and really have the ultimate urban weapon.

Zenith makes a very reliable firearm.

 

[Ledzep]

Have you ever held the paratrooper M1 carbine stocks? Might do that before you get sold on that idea. If you think the Glock grip feels like a 2x4...

.30 carbine with appropriate bullets is no slouch in close(r) quarters and can make hits out to ~300yd but.... I can't really say I'd recommend it.

A mini-14 or mini-30 with a folding stock makes more sense, IMO. Probably cheaper, too. BRN-180 is also not a bad suggestion, with folding MCX stock.

 

[THEIS]

View attachment 7691385

 

[AZgeek]

The plastic answer to all your problems. I can't believe I'm publicly acknowledging I own this!

 

[BytorJr]

Have you ever held the paratrooper M1 carbine stocks? Might do that before you get sold on that idea. If you think the Glock grip feels like a 2x4...

.30 carbine with appropriate bullets is no slouch in close(r) quarters and can make hits out to ~300yd but.... I can't really say I'd recommend it.

A mini-14 or mini-30 with a folding stock makes more sense, IMO. Probably cheaper, too. BRN-180 is also not a bad suggestion, with folding MCX stock.

Was toying with the Choate stock more so than the true Paratrooper. I'd have to have an optic to do 300 on a 30 carbine...at least the ones I've shot.

I'm thinking of heading to Academy and getting an Adidas track suit though. .

 

[Rem2429]

I’ve got several of the above, but I keep going back to a 6.5 Grendel folder pistol. I know, no ARs , but it wins the most capable for the least form factor contest.
I like scorpions and tavors and lever guns too.

 

[drew_eckhardt]

I like the Tavor X95 at 27” long in Title 1 form apart from the eight pound weight.

 

[BullGear]

Have you ever held the paratrooper M1 carbine stocks? Might do that before you get sold on that idea. If you think the Glock grip feels like a 2x4...

.30 carbine with appropriate bullets is no slouch in close(r) quarters and can make hits out to ~300yd but.... I can't really say I'd recommend it.

A mini-14 or mini-30 with a folding stock makes more sense, IMO. Probably cheaper, too. BRN-180 is also not a bad suggestion, with folding MCX stock.

My Dad didn't think so. As a mortarman, he was assigned an M1 Carbine. Once over in France (WWII), he found himself a Garand and carried that. He said at camp he was unimpressed with the accuracy or the punch the Carbine had. He said he wasn't going to carry a pea shooter when he could have a real rifle with the Garand.

 

[BytorJr]

I have to say, the Sig MCX Pistol 300BLK 9" is looking like the front runner. STANAG magazines, AR style but without the spring/buffer and an actual folder "brace"

@BullGear...I agree the accuracy of the M1 is far from perfect; but the newer Critical Defense is a good load...IF they feed. No experience here mind you on the Critical Defense load, maybe they feed fine; but another unknown in the equation.

 

[Ledzep]

My Dad didn't think so. As a mortarman, he was assigned an M1 Carbine. Once over in France (WWII), he found himself a Garand and carried that. He said at camp he was unimpressed with the accuracy or the punch the Carbine had. He said he wasn't going to carry a pea shooter when he could have a real rifle with the Garand.

Appropriate bullets....

FMJ is FMJ. With some expanding bullets it's roughly equivalent to .357 magnum. Again, not my first choice but it'll certainly sting...

 

[liminalState]

So this is not the cheapest option, but I picked up an APC10 for exactly the same reason. I'm not going to say anyone else here is wrong but if you're in the car, worrying about anything further away than 30ft much less 100 yards is probably not a realistic scenario. Reducing range also reduces liability from over penetration. A single point, Magpul sling might be even better/faster than a pistol brace with a little practice and you don't have to sweat ATF man trying to put his balls on your chin.

With a small "pistol" that easily maneuvers within the confines of a car but, can also be backed up with a G20 in reserve, it's a pretty good option. Oh and I hear 10mm is good for bears, too.