carbon fiber barrels

[Nukes]

Seeking informed/experienced opinions.

Is there currently a consensus on the value of carbon fiber barrels? Pros? Cons? Is there a mission for which carbon fiber barrels are incontrovertibly the best choice? Accuracy? Barrel life? High volume fire?

If so, what are the pros and cons of the various manufacturers?

 

[Clayman]

Lightweight (for profile) hunting guns or guns trying to retain as much accuracy as possible while shedding some weight that won't be subjected to a strenuous firing schedule.

Barrel life will be very similar - shorter depending on what you're doing but the greatest factor will remain firing schedule and load.

Some "High volume" is probably fine but again it will heat up faster and that comes with cons. High volume for which weapon system and purpose? If you're talking about mag dumping into trash or a 1000+ round class it's not going to be the best choice.

I have experience with proof research and Christensen. Experience with proof is phenomenal. Christensen rifle as a whole, not so much.

 

[Nukes]

Lightweight (for profile) hunting guns or guns trying to retain as much accuracy as possible while shedding some weight that won't be subjected to a strenuous firing schedule.

Barrel life will be very similar - shorter depending on what you're doing but the greatest factor will remain firing schedule and load.

Some "High volume" is probably fine but again it will heat up faster and that comes with cons. High volume for which weapon system and purpose? If you're talking about mag dumping into trash or a 1000+ round class it's not going to be the best choice.

I have experience with proof research and Christensen. Experience with proof is phenomenal. Christensen rifle as a whole, not so much.

Much appreciated. Very helpful.

I built a very nice Noveske Gen 3 lower with a Trigger Tech Diamond trigger. Been waffling among a variety of upper options. Though Gemtech claimed it was producing their Integra in .300BLK I sure can't find one, so gave some thought to building a Noveske upper ,223 Wylde 20" or another 6.5 Grendel upper. We've got a Proof on a Rem 700 that does well in PTR, but not sure how that translates into an AR15/M16 platform.

 

[brianf]

Most important info is who made the blank.

If the barrel is made by a junk company it’s still a junk barrel. If it’s made by a quality mfg then it’s a good barrel

If weight is not a concern 99% of the time carbon barrels are for the looks

They are “fat” and look really cool compared to a skinny barrel of the same weight.

If weight isnt a issue get a regular MTU /fatter contour and save money.

If carbon shot better as a whole BR and F-class would only have carbon wrapped. But they still shoot steel for accuracy over strings of fire.

 

[Obi-WanKannoli]

The non-negotiables are saved or same weight for a thicker, more rigid profile and improved harmonics compared to a steel barrel of similar weight (much thinner profile). This is plain old physics.

The rest in terms of carbon barrels accuracy, barrel life, heating, cooling, etc. tend to fall in the same realm of age old shooting community arguments such as barrel break in and cleaning.

I prefer them on hunting rigs as they allow me to run a lighter weight setup that is still rigid enough to support a suppressor. For anyone that doesn't understand this concept, go duct tape a brick to the end of a pool noodle and try to hold it out straight. For competition or target shooting a heavier, thick profile steel barrel takes the ticket in my opinion.

 

[WhoIsPat]

The biggest issue with carbon fiber barrels is the POI shift when it gets hot. Which is why its popular among hunters who want the weight savings and won't get it hot enough to make a difference.

However, it depends on the barrel to how many shots get it hot enough to show that POI shift. Some have said 10 rounds fairly quickly haven't shown any shift in this thread here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/carbon-fiber-barrel-poi-shift.6979052/

 

[Baron23]

Seeking informed/experienced opinions.

Is there currently a consensus on the value of carbon fiber barrels? Pros? Cons? Is there a mission for which carbon fiber barrels are incontrovertibly the best choice? Accuracy? Barrel life? High volume fire?

If so, what are the pros and cons of the various manufacturers?

Weight...weight....and weight.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

CF barrels are not generally lightweight. They are just lighter weight than the same profile all steel barrel. The primary downside to modern CF wrapped barrels (Proof) is cost and mirage.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Although I cut a ton of CF barrels, I personally am not a fan. Chuck them up in your lathe and pull on the muzzle end of the barrel, then do the same contour steel barrel. You can also let it go and watch/feel how much longer the vibration goes on with the CF barrel. Also, lately I've had a few barrels the carbon pulled away from the steel or the mat wasn't saturated with epoxy and pulled away from itself with weenie strength blue masking tape.

First advantage I see is barrel weight/profile while still being able to run industry standard muzzle threads and attachments.

Second advantage I see is filling out the stocks barrel channel in popular non-sporter lightweight hunting stocks. Ever see rifles with Manners EH1A or McM Game Warden and sporter contour barrel......GROSS.

Third advantage......it just looks cool.

Ern

 

[Clayman]

Said experience

Radian, proof cf .223 wylde 18", jp fmos, Geissele hi-speed NM, factory ADI 69 SMK

20 rounds loaded into a pmag, atlas front bipod, weibad range cube (8x6)

Fired a round roughly every 10-15 seconds, probably 30 seconds between shot 5 and shot 1 on a new group, ambient temp was roughly 80⁰f.

I am far from the best shooter and this was my first time shooting paper in a while. Bottom right was the last group. Very well could have been me. This rifle can do .3-.5 moa with some good hand loads for 5 shot groups.

The numbers do not indicate actual firing order. I didn't keep track of that.

I've done range days with about 14 pieces of steel from 200-800 yards and fired a pretty good amount of ammo. It handled it absolutely fine but it did heat up more than a steel barrel of a similar profile would have. You need to treat the cf barrels roughly the same way you would a lightweight profile.

So if it fits your use case and finances I'd say go for it.

6.5 grendel I wouldn't imagine you doing an insane firing schedule that would significantly negatively impact a cf barrel.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Much appreciated. Very helpful.

I built a very nice Noveske Gen 3 lower with a Trigger Tech Diamond trigger. Been waffling among a variety of upper options. Though Gemtech claimed it was producing their Integra in .300BLK I sure can't find one, so gave some thought to building a Noveske upper ,223 Wylde 20" or another 6.5 Grendel upper. We've got a Proof on a Rem 700 that does well in PTR, but not sure how that translates into an AR15/M16 platform.

Since you have a Noveske lower, have you considered just going with a Noveske barrel? I have a 14.5” Noveske chrome-lined barrel that shoots better than me. Here is five shots of BH 77 gr TMK at 100 yards and one at about 235 yard:

BTW - I think you could get an AR barrel from Compass Lake Engineering, based on a Bartlein or Krieger blank, for less money than a Proof CF.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

CF’s advantage is a thick stiff heavy barrel, that’s it. It won’t give better barrel life and I wouldn’t pick an expensive CF barrel for a rifle that’s a volume shooter.

Not all CF barrels are created equal either. Proofs are excellent, I’ve had 7-8 now an all but one have allowed 10 shot strings without opening up or stringing. I’ve had a few Christensens and exactly one was a decent barrel and still no proof, the others were trash. Based on feedback I’ve seen I would buy a Bartlein too, but Bartlein and Proof are the only ones I’d buy.

If you don’t need light weight then just save your $$.

 

[rlsmith1]

I’ve got nothing to add except my experience and agree with the above. I did not go carbon on my AR because the weight savings was only a couple ounces when compared to steel. Quality steel barrels have less issues with heat and manufactures have made a ton of them so they have a good process.

I did go carbon on my bolt gun for yotes. Carbon makes sense the longer the barrel is and the lower the firing schedule. I’m very happy with my 22” 6 CM from Proof. I run MTU steel for the barrels I shoot more (running everything off a Terminus Zeus QC)

 

[Ape_Factory]

I went for carbon as the 20" barrel is about the same weight as the original 16" steel barrel on my bolt gun. Not all CF is created equal and depending on the construction method can either act as an insulator or a conductor based on how the carbon chains are "grown" and aligned to one and other. Woven carbon is an insulator. Forged carbon can be both but is likely an insulator. Long chain forged carbon fiber, when aligned parallel, is a very good at thermal management. I have brake rotors which use this process and outperform the OEM carbon ceramic rotors found on various cars (produced by Brembo) as the latter is using short chain chopped carbon fiber that's compressed in a mold. My rotors have 3X the thermal management capacity at the same weight and can withstand far greater operational temperatures without degradation.

I've really not had any issue with mirage off of my carbon barrel but I also shoot suppressed 100% of the time and do see mirage off of the suppressor. It's a CarbonSix barrel and uses forged carbon. When I do test loads, I usually eject the case, leave the bolt open, check the magneto speed readout, write down the number, load the next round and fire. That's usually done within 30-45 seconds. I've also shot sub-MOA 10 shot groups, one right after the other and didn't notice any walking.

It'd be interesting to measure the frequency of a metal vs. carbon barrel at a predetermined amount of deflection and return to normal along with the amount of force to cause various angles of deflection.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

I have had excellent luck with Carbon6 barrels. Did a batch of custom bullpups, and across 20 guns they averaged .25moa at 100 yards with factory ammo. Was really impressed and have done plenty of other builds with them.

 

[surgeon260]

It's been mentioned, but being able to use larger diameter muzzle thread patterns like 3/4" without a super heavy barrel is an advantage of CF barrels.

 

[DangerRanger]

The non-negotiables are saved or same weight for a thicker, more rigid profile and improved harmonics compared to a steel barrel of similar weight (much thinner profile). This is plain old physics.

The rest in terms of carbon barrels accuracy, barrel life, heating, cooling, etc. tend to fall in the same realm of age old shooting community arguments such as barrel break in and cleaning.

I prefer them on hunting rigs as they allow me to run a lighter weight setup that is still rigid enough to support a suppressor. For anyone that doesn't understand this concept, go duct tape a brick to the end of a pool noodle and try to hold it out straight. For competition or target shooting a heavier, thick profile steel barrel takes the ticket in my opinion.

i don’t still have the note but years ago Alex wheeler posted a quick measurement of barrel deflection with a weight tied to the end of multiple barrels. The proof carbons all deflected pretty much equal to steel blanks that weighed the same as them, irrespective of contour.

Which means for suppressed use what you’re getting is longer blanks that can easily have adequate threads and shoulders, but not any more rigid for flex prevention than the respective skinner barrels.

There are obviously more extensive rigidity measurements than simply deviation from weight on the end, but I was surprised the carbons seemed to be no better at that.

 

[Nukes]

Since you have a Noveske lower, have you considered just going with a Noveske barrel? I have a 14.5” Noveske chrome-lined barrel that shoots better than me. Here is five shots of BH 77 gr TMK at 100 yards and one at about 235 yard:

View attachment 8083520
View attachment 8083528

BTW - I think you could get an AR barrel from Compass Lake Engineering, based on a Bartlein or Krieger blank, for less money than a Proof CF.

Yes, we have a 12.5" Noveske hammer-forged barrel upper on a transferable 'teen (kept the original upper NIB). Very happy with it.

I saw some marketing that claimed (counter-intuitively) that the carbon fiber Proof barrels handle heat better and are more rigid than steel barrels. Though counter-intuitive, the marketing intrigued me. Judging from the much-appreciated feedback from the folks here, I'm glad I didn't fall for the marketing.

Coming back from a COVID coma and quadriplegia, weight is still an issue for me, but not for the rest of the family.

You'll laugh. Temporarily I put my old (retired) competition iron-sights Bushmaster Dissipator on the Noveske lower. I think I'll go with something close to the original Gemtech Integra .300BLK home defense plan— short barrel, reflex AB Raptor can, QD thermal (maybe even the newly announced Holosun, though I hate to risk being an early adopter).

Always interested and very appreciative of helpful opinions like all those above. Thank you all!

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

i don’t still have the note but years ago Alex wheeler posted a quick measurement of barrel deflection with a weight tied to the end of multiple barrels. The proof carbons all deflected pretty much equal to steel blanks that weighed the same as them, irrespective of contour.

Which means for suppressed use what you’re getting is longer blanks that can easily have adequate threads and shoulders, but not any more rigid for flex prevention than the respective skinner barrels.

There are obviously more extensive rigidity measurements than simply deviation from weight on the end, but I was surprised the carbons seemed to be no better at that.

I see your point, but I think people shop barrel contour mostly by what fits (or looks good) in their stock choice.......so I think CF vs Steel rigidity should be compared by contour not weight.

I also understand there are some serious hunters as well as competitors who need to adhere to weight regulations too.

Either way, you can't go "wrong" with a top quality barrel in CF or Steel.

Ern

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I saw some marketing that claimed (counter-intuitively) that the carbon fiber Proof barrels handle heat better and are more rigid than steel barrels. Though counter-intuitive, the marketing intrigued me. Judging from the much-appreciated feedback from the folks here, I'm glad I didn't fall for the marketing.

It is true though. Proof CF barrels are more rigid than steel barrels of the same weight. They are less rigid than steel barrels of the same diameter. Proof CF barrels have mirage problems because they are more conductive than just steel of the same diameter.

 

[DangerRanger]

I see your point, but I think people shop barrel contour mostly by what fits (or looks good) in their stock choice.......so I think CF vs Steel rigidity should be compared by contour not weight.

I also understand there are some serious hunters as well as competitors who need to adhere to weight regulations too.

Either way, you can't go "wrong" with a top quality barrel in CF or Steel.

Ern

Gotcha, yeah obviously if you’re comparing like contours. I’ve never thought about people picking based on what looks good in their stock, I was always thinking it was weight based.

To me the benefit has always been easy threaded muzzle per weight

 

[Nukes]

I went for carbon as the 20" barrel is about the same weight as the original 16" steel barrel on my bolt gun. Not all CF is created equal and depending on the construction method can either act as an insulator or a conductor based on how the carbon chains are "grown" and aligned to one and other. Woven carbon is an insulator. Forged carbon can be both but is likely an insulator. Long chain forged carbon fiber, when aligned parallel, is a very good at thermal management. …

I have not noticed manufacturers describing which process they use. Which manufacturers use the long-chain, forged, parallel process?

If I decide to go with a short barrel, it seems there is little, if any, point in getting a carbon fiber barrel.

 

[Nukes]

It is true though. Proof CF barrels are more rigid than steel barrels of the same weight. They are less rigid than steel barrels of the same diameter. Proof CF barrels have mirage problems because they are more conductive than just steel of the same diameter.

Ahhh… I see. Key distinction that penetrates the naked marketing.

 

[toader]

Benchmark carbon barrels are supposed to be pretty damn good.....trying one on my next build.

 

[jbuck88]

My totally non-scientific reason was to get a large enough diameter at 24" to thread for a suppressor the standard 5/8x24 and still have a decent shoulder to work with. It was a hunting rifle so weight was a priority.

My next few proof barrels ( 4 or 5 now) were because of the positive experience with my first.

 

[jmw]

Benchmark carbon barrels are supposed to be pretty damn good.....trying one on my next build.

I have a few, they are awesome

 

[Clayman]

I saw some marketing that claimed (counter-intuitively) that the carbon fiber Proof barrels handle heat better and are more rigid than steel barrels. Though counter-intuitive, the marketing intrigued me. Judging from the much-appreciated feedback from the folks here, I'm glad I didn't fall for the marketing.

Well while slightly disingenuous it is true. Weight for weight the cf will be better. More rigid and handle heat better. It's when you match profile for profile that steel has a significant advantage. But that advantage comes with a substantial weight penalty.

So really regardless of what you go with there is a use case for a lightweight steel, carbon or thicc steel barrel.

If you aren't building a specific prs/benchrest rifle but want to retain as much accuracy as possible the cf barrels are a fantastic choice.

Lightweight hunting rifle is another great choice. You get the rigidity and accuracy consistency without the weight. You can actually get lighter weight steel barrels than you can a cf but going thin profile has it's disadvantages as well.

 

[Nukes]

…You can actually get lighter weight steel barrels than you can a cf but going thin profile has it's disadvantages as well.

When our children were smaller than me, I used a short Faxon pencil barrel, the best brake for flash and recoil reduction, and a polymer lower to build a 5½# AR. It has well served its purpose.

 

[Ape_Factory]

I have not noticed manufacturers describing which process they use. Which manufacturers use the long-chain, forged, parallel process?

If I decide to go with a short barrel, it seems there is little, if any, point in getting a carbon fiber barrel.

I don't know anyone in the carbon barrel industry who's licensed the technology. The way the carbon chains are aligned is proprietary and are essentially organically "grown" vs. what most use which molded/compressed pre-existing carbon weave or forged carbon which was developed by Lamborghini and a university out West (Washington State?). The long chain CRFC was developed in England.

The mirage thing is intriguing. I'll have to try that next time I go to my indoor range. I find the mirage far greater indoors than out but that's coming off my suppressor. Might be different on a gas gun where a lot of rounds are fired more quickly.

 

[Nukes]

…
The mirage thing is intriguing. I'll have to try that next time I go to my indoor range. I find the mirage far greater indoors than out but that's coming off my suppressor. Might be different on a gas gun where a lot of rounds are fired more quickly.

I'd postulate that indoors you have a space with either no significant airflow or laminar airflow, so that the perturbation from the suppressor/barrel heat are more noticeable than outdoors where there are more random disruptions of air flow.

 

[Ape_Factory]

I'd postulate that indoors you have a space with either no significant airflow or laminar airflow, so that the perturbation from the suppressor/barrel heat are more noticeable than outdoors where there are more random disruptions of air flow.

They do have a fan blowing back to front but it's clearly not enough. I might actually bring it up with them or bring a fan with me next time! I was quite surprised at how bad it became. I had the Magnetospeed on the suppressor so I wasn't using a cover to help mitigate the mirage.

 

[smoooth1]

OP:
Besides (and because of) the weight savings, the balance of the rifle is significantly improved. This is especially handy in a hunting rifle or specific use rig.

Having both Bartlein and Proof CF barrel’s, I will say the Bartlein is comparatively heavier in the same contour.

The biggest CON to most carbon barrels is not being able to cut them down, save for the Pederson Precision barrels and possibly another mfg.

 

[Jerrydaniels]

All I can say is (are you kidding me) a late friend of mine God rest his soul. Put together a ar 15 in 556 carbonfibber barrel and suppressed it. It was like shooting a pellet gun . No muzzle jump at all . So sweet!

 

[wind gypsy]

It is true though. Proof CF barrels are more rigid than steel barrels of the same weight. They are less rigid than steel barrels of the same diameter. Proof CF barrels have mirage problems because they are more conductive than just steel of the same diameter.

Have you performed a test on this or have a link to someone who has? All I’ve found is Alex wheeler tested deflection and at best a carbon barrel of the same weight as a steel one had roughly the same amount of deflection. Obviously there are a lot of ways to hit a weight with different tapers but the gist of it is the claim is bogus in at least some cases.

I tend to believe we’ve been hoodwinked into buying something stupid because they “look cool”. I’ve seen enough smiths I trust say the odds of getting a dud are much higher with a carbon barrel. How could they not be more likely to be subject to inconsistent stresses when tapered down to a thin little liner than wrapped with carbon? We trust that they wrap consistently around the liner?

the only single reason I believe makes sense to buy a carbon is to have a larger muzzle diameter for threads for a given barrel weight. I’d rather have a steel sporter contour of my desired weight with the contour flared for muzzle threads even at the same price.

I’m open to being convinced otherwise but for now I believe carbon barrels are a dumb compromise for looks over function.

 

[Nukes]

Since you have a Noveske lower, have you considered just going with a Noveske barrel? I have a 14.5” Noveske chrome-lined barrel that shoots better than me. …

Yes, but, even with Noveske's assistance, getting Noveske parts is no mean feat. I finally decided to buy a Faxon Gunner profile in .223 Wylde. Now I am looking for a Gen 3 9.15" handguard and the project will be finito.