Carring Firearms to Calls

[Dusty_61B]

Ok, here’s a question to you good folks, just your opinion.
Situation: you are an EMT/Paramedic/Firefighter with a state issued CCW license. You don’t carry all the time, but you receive a call for a Assault/battery/domestic call, and being in a Rural Fire Company you know LE is minimum 15 mins out. Do you carry on the call or leave it at home? We are trying to change our Company By-laws to this affect that if you have the right to carry, and you feel it is prudent you may carry. we put a stop to this about 8 years ago when one of our members kept carrying on calls and his pistol fell out of his fire gear in a house fire and was burned up. the FD replaced the pistol but it involved a boat load of paper work. I can see where carrying at a Fire call is a dumb idea, but Med calls are a little different.

What are your thoughts? I’m looking for a few good ideas to throw at the Board or Dictators (directors) meeting.

Thanks

 

[Lindy]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

FWIW, I have a sister who is an EMT and works in a rural area. In her organization, some of the EMTs have permits and do carry. I'm not sure there is a policy explicitly allowing that, or they just do so.

A primary rule of emergency medicine is "Don't become a victim yourself."

I'd wait for the cops, and let them do the job they are trained to do.

Domestic violence calls are often explosive and unpredictable situations where even the police experience casualties. I don't believe that the introduction of a weapon being carried by a person who probably has relatively low level of weapon training is a prudent thing to do.

I'd expect that injuries in such an incident are not often life-threatening, and delays in treatment are not going to be serious enough to risk the safety of medical personnel.

From an organizational perspective, imagine the legal costs associated with a medic actually using a firearm.

Non-L.E. personnel carry a firearm to defend themselves. If you feel like you're going into a situation where you might have to defend yourselves, my advice is to back off and wait until the incident scene is safe to enter.

 

[BobM]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

In my area the FD generally won't enter the scene until it's "secured" by LE first.

 

[Jayhawker]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

The company I used to work for back in Michigan had a "don't even think of it" policy, actually fired one of the best medics they ever had for having his handgun in his locker at the station.

Most often, when responding to scenes that had a potential for violence, LEO's secured the scene prior to us going in.

That being said...working in the inner city, and with Mr. Murphy's constant presence I carried regularly and no one, not even my partner, knew about it... figured I'd give myself and my partner a fighting chance when things went south ... and I might be alive for the company to fire...

 

[Dusty_61B]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

it would be great if we had our secne's secured. the problem is we dont, the county's attudiute is "do what you must".
i perosnaly could give a horse's ass about some friggin lawyer and "liabilaity" In my mind the only time having an handgun at a call is a problem is if said person went psyco and shot and killed everyone. i trust my Medics and Firefighters. i could care less about some dopehead who beat the tar out of his girlfriend for the 8th time that week, i care about the shotgun he is going to shoot my people with. these wack jobs have all sorts of weaponry, but you dont want us to carry to protect ourselvs? im not implying that we act like a police officer, but that we can and should protect oursselvs. we are here to provide a public service, we save lives, either with medical care, or fighting a fire. now your going to throw some deranged nut at us too?
i have seen a retard shoot at a fire chief once, one of the guys on the pump pannel turned the Deck gun on him and let him have a straight stream at about 350 PSI. it was kinda funny

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

I don't know what the policy of your dept is. I can rely on my experience with the Anchorage Police Dept. I retired before they (Alaska) had CC permits or the "everyone" can carry laws.

I know for a fact that some of our FD Paramedics carried. I never heard of a (APD) officer who would even consider confronting or having a problem with them.

I cannot fantom a cop having a problem with that. Paramedics are like Combat Medics, you don't screw with them and do everything posible to protect them.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dusty61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it would be great if we had our secne's secured. the problem is we dont, the county's attudiute is "do what you must".
i perosnaly could give a horse's ass about some friggin lawyer and "liabilaity" In my mind the only time having an handgun at a call is a problem is if said person went psyco and shot and killed everyone. i trust my Medics and Firefighters. i could care less about some dopehead who beat the tar out of his girlfriend for the 8th time that week, i care about the shotgun he is going to shoot my people with. these wack jobs have all sorts of weaponry, but you dont want us to carry to protect ourselvs? im not implying that we act like a police officer, but that we can and should protect oursselvs. we are here to provide a public service, we save lives, either with medical care, or fighting a fire. now your going to throw some deranged nut at us too?
i have seen a retard shoot at a fire chief once, one of the guys on the pump pannel turned the Deck gun on him and let him have a straight stream at about 350 PSI. it was kinda funny </div></div>

Some of your statements lead me to believe that you have very little experience doing what you do and that you have a dangerous sense of idealism that is going to get yourself or some other innocent hurt.

It's pretty much the standard across the nation for EMS providers and firefighters that if the scene isn't safe you do not approach it until it is rendered safe. You're suggesting adding a whole new dynamic to what can possibly be an already volatile situation.

 

[The_end]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's pretty much the standard across the nation for EMS providers and firefighters that if the scene isn't safe you do not approach it until it is rendered safe. You're suggesting adding a whole new dynamic to what can possibly be an already volatile situation.</div></div>

Well said. EMS responders are there for clean up, not addressing violent or volatile situations. If the victim dies because EMS waited for LE, it's better than a medic being harmed or killed.

 

[socalsheepdog]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

Not to mention, nobody will fault you if you, the EMS provider does not feel comfortable entering a dangerous scene and backs out and waits for LE. I don't think you will be any safer on scene with a gun, your attention will be on patient care, not threats coming at you. IMHO you can't give good patient care if you really think your in a bad situation. Let the Cops make is safe so you guys can do the best job you can. My .02

 

[MEDICGORDO]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

The perks of being a swat medic

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

In the 60s i lived in Arlington,VA And use to hang around Potomic arms alot, anyways alot of DC fire personal would come in and talk abt fighting a fire and some a--hole would be taking shots at them once in a while. The cops would be around but it still would happen. One of the guys told me that even going thru a building trying to get people out shots were fired thru doors and they were mostley drug apts.. He said every one at his station carried at least one handgun on all calls. Don't know what it's like today. MM

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

I have been a professional FF/Paramedic for 15 years. I served as a SWAT medic for four of that. I am now a Captain. The first part of my answer that follows applies if you are asking this seriously.

The simple fact is you can't possibly know which calls will go south and which calls will be fine, which means you need to have the weapon with you at all times. So now you have a weapon on scene that you cannot devote the proper attention to from a weapons retention standpoint. Don't tell me you can because if you are truly a rural service you don't have the manpower available for you to just cool your heels and be mr. scene safety. Outside of medical calls where will you secure the weapon for fire calls? One very elemental and simple reason to not carry.

For the second part of my answer...my bullshit meter is pegged and my vote is that Slapchop nailed it in his description of your experience and skills.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

The company that contracted for the county EMS when I worked there forbid ANYONE (except uniformed officers) from carrying on their property or in their ambulances. I had a CCW permit. But I was told that I would be fired if I carried. After being shot at twice, they also laughed at me when I bought a kevlar vest. Shortly there after I decided 6 years was enough blood to watch when I didn't have to. I quit. My regular job paid the bills anyway.

 

[samuraiwarrior23]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dusty61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it would be great if we had our secne's secured. the problem is we dont, the county's attudiute is "do what you must".
i perosnaly could give a horse's ass about some friggin lawyer and "liabilaity" In my mind the only time having an handgun at a call is a problem is if said person went psyco and shot and killed everyone. i trust my Medics and Firefighters. i could care less about some dopehead who beat the tar out of his girlfriend for the 8th time that week, i care about the shotgun he is going to shoot my people with. these wack jobs have all sorts of weaponry, but you dont want us to carry to protect ourselvs? im not implying that we act like a police officer, but that we can and should protect oursselvs. we are here to provide a public service, we save lives, either with medical care, or fighting a fire. now your going to throw some deranged nut at us too?
i have seen a retard shoot at a fire chief once, one of the guys on the pump pannel turned the Deck gun on him and let him have a straight stream at about 350 PSI. it was kinda funny </div></div>

What county do you provide service for in NYS?

 

[Dusty_61B]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

Changeao County.

as for my experience, I have been in the NYS fire service for over 10 years, i went to NYC on 9-14-01 with one of many group's going down to assist. I have seen and done a lot in my career, I currently am an Asst. Chief, and this whole argument started when one of my Medics who is an active duty state trooper, was threated, but per dept SOG, cannot carry on a call.
Your BS meter needs to be recalibrated.
As for weapon retention, I haven’t a clue. I do fire and EMS as a Volunteer, my day job is a shop supervisor and truck driver, so this whole this is probably a piss poor idea, as I stated back on my first post, I was looking for opinions, hopefully from folk who would give me there opinion on the idea. Ya could have said “stupid idea” or “great idea” I wasn’t expecting a personal attack on my professionalism or my experience.
so, thanks for the help.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dusty61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Changeao County.

as for my experience, I have been in the NYS fire service for over 10 years, i went to NYC on 9-14-01 with one of many group's going down to assist. I have seen and done a lot in my career, I currently am an Asst. Chief, and this whole argument started when one of my Medics who is an active duty state trooper, was threated, but per dept SOG, cannot carry on a call.
Your BS meter needs to be recalibrated.
As for weapon retention, I haven’t a clue. I do fire and EMS as a Volunteer, my day job is a shop supervisor and truck driver, so this whole this is probably a piss poor idea, as I stated back on my first post, I was looking for opinions, hopefully from folk who would give me there opinion on the idea. Ya could have said “stupid idea” or “great idea” I wasn’t expecting a personal attack on my professionalism or my experience.
so, thanks for the help. </div></div>

Ok so lets do it your way. Bad idea, stick to your day job.

 

[Dusty_61B]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

ok, will do. back to grinding gears and shoving snow around the roads.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my area the FD generally won't enter the scene until it's "secured" by LE first. </div></div>

That's the answer right there. You're a FF/EMT, not a SWAT cop. Let LE do their job. I am sitting in my rig until LE says the scene is safe. If it takes 15-20 minutes then so be it. I am going home at the end of my shift.

 

[chris223]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

Wait for the cops thats what they are paid to do .
you are not law enforcement and should you act like you are
you will find yourself in a court room.
The road to Hell is paved with good intention.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

Our policy in a situation where a crime, or the possibility that a crime was commited was the EMTs had to wait at a safe distance until the scene was safe.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dusty61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Changeao County.

as for my experience, I have been in the NYS fire service for over 10 years, i went to NYC on 9-14-01 with one of many group's going down to assist. I have seen and done a lot in my career, I currently am an Asst. Chief, and this whole argument started when one of my Medics who is an active duty state trooper, was threated, but per dept SOG, cannot carry on a call.
Your BS meter needs to be recalibrated.
As for weapon retention, I haven’t a clue. I do fire and EMS as a Volunteer, my day job is a shop supervisor and truck driver, so this whole this is probably a piss poor idea, as I stated back on my first post, I was looking for opinions, hopefully from folk who would give me there opinion on the idea. Ya could have said “stupid idea” or “great idea” I wasn’t expecting a personal attack on my professionalism or my experience.
so, thanks for the help. </div></div>

My bullshit meter seems to "Dead Balls Accurate". I respect that you put some time in at a volunteer service, sorry you took offense.

As one with your stated years of experience you should be far beyond knowing that this is "stupid idea". However, as an Assistant Chief you "haven't a clue", this is hardly the first time LE and scene safety issues has been addressed in the fire service.

 

[UKDslayer]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

IMHO you better be trained with that PD unit in every way, shape, form, and be an official "PD tactical SWAT medic" - I know DFW has two ER docs that are certified TAC/SWAT medics; an officer's life 2 years ago was saved by a trach. within one minute after being shot in the neck. They were there, I bet they carry as Lindy said to prevent being a victim, but they sure aren't the first one through the door, and they do wear body armor. But their job is to save the SWAT team and limit collateral damage, not to be the primary intervention. I don't think your malpractice would ever go there...

 

[canman]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_end</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's pretty much the standard across the nation for EMS providers and firefighters that if the scene isn't safe you do not approach it until it is rendered safe. You're suggesting adding a whole new dynamic to what can possibly be an already volatile situation.</div></div>

Well said. EMS responders are there for clean up, not addressing violent or volatile situations. If the victim dies because EMS waited for LE, it's better than a medic being harmed or killed. </div></div> That just about says it.

 

[kstraughen]

Re: Carring Firearms to Calls

I have to agree I would like to carry but and my personal safety is first above all. but we will not go into a scene without it being cleared by PD.