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Gunsmithing Case exploded today !!!

#51
Re: Case exploded today !!!

That is the one. I have fired hundreds of rounds of Black Hills ammo both red and blue box with ZERO issues. 51 rounds with this ammo and look what happened.....

So I wouldn't think this was the rifle.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stratos286</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that is the rifle I built for you I would be happy to take a look free of charge shooter65.
James </div></div>
 
#52
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Not to hijack this thread, but per my previous post, I had the same thing happen as shooter65. Get this, same day, same ammo, same city, different range. I was even going to post a thread about this, then I saw this post.

I ended up a little bloody from the powder, but most importantly my eyeballs are fine. Thanks to the Oakley's I was wearing.

Here is the ammo I was shooting. I cannot remember when or where I bought it, since I have owned it for about 4 years.

d292e11a.jpg


I was shooting my new Remington 700 SPS tactical, I had less than 100 rounds through it (1 month old).

I started out shooting some shitty HSM ammo. Look at the primers on these.

96023566.jpg


I then switched to the 3D ammo / Hornady ammo. Again look at the primers

8c1dcdf5.jpg


Here is a picture of the case failure. I also shot 2 more test rounds after (I know, I know....) Looks like I have some extractor damage.

b92c3db9.jpg


I am not sure if I have a rifle problem, an ammo problem, or both. I will note that as the day went on, it became harder and harder to close the bolt. I really had to work to close it before the kB. The spent primers concern me and leads me to believe that the rifle is partially to blame (same problem, different ammo). I was also getting some light primer strikes on the HSM, I did not shoot enough of the 3D stuff to see if the same problem persisted.

The case failure is clearly an ammo problem.

Thoughts? BTW, Remington is sending me a prepaid call tag to ship my rifle back to them.
 
#53
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spoke with Hornady today and they are issuing a call tag for the ammo so they can inspect it.
</div></div>
That's good news. I'll send some of mine back for inspection in April.
It'd be great if they do a 1-1 swap on some safe match stuff.


CHRIS
 
#54
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Looking through some of the pictures I have on photobucket, I found this.
themajorsmatchammo.jpg

The left is the once-fired LC stuff. The right is the later new brass. That discoloration on LC is at styrofoam level.

I'm still searching for that ruptured case pic I have.

CHRIS
EDIT:
Here's what I sitting on as far as that ammo. The stuff center-right. Six cases there and at least one opened one on the shelf. I can't remember how much is LC.
Ammo.jpg
 
#55
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tony.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack this thread, but per my previous post, I had the same thing happen as shooter65. Get this, same day, same ammo, same city, different range. I was even going to post a thread about this, then I saw this post.

I ended up a little bloody from the powder, but most importantly my eyeballs are fine. Thanks to the Oakley's I was wearing.

Here is the ammo I was shooting. I cannot remember when or where I bought it, since I have owned it for about 4 years.

d292e11a.jpg


I was shooting my new Remington 700 SPS tactical, I had less than 100 rounds through it (1 month old).

I started out shooting some shitty HSM ammo. Look at the primers on these.

96023566.jpg


I then switched to the 3D ammo / Hornady ammo. Again look at the primers

8c1dcdf5.jpg


Here is a picture of the case failure. I also shot 2 more test rounds after (I know, I know....) Looks like I have some extractor damage.

b92c3db9.jpg


I am not sure if I have a rifle problem, an ammo problem, or both. I will note that as the day went on, it became harder and harder to close the bolt. I really had to work to close it before the kB. The spent primers concern me and leads me to believe that the rifle is partially to blame (same problem, different ammo). I was also getting some light primer strikes on the HSM, I did not shoot enough of the 3D stuff to see if the same problem persisted.

The case failure is clearly an ammo problem.

Thoughts? BTW, Remington is sending me a prepaid call tag to ship my rifle back to them. </div></div>

I say you need to to a look at the fit between the firing pin and the hole for the FP in the boltface. Looks to me like you may have an over-sized hole which can lead to cratering like you see in the pics. Are you getting any other pressure signs? If you are getting ignition problems or the like, you may want to think about getting your FP bushed.

Agreed that the failure is a separate problem.
 
#56
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Those little dimples that look like flow from excessive pressure in the primers can sometimes show pressure but not in this case. Look at the primer edges. They are nice and round and not flat so no excessive pressure. My .308 leaves marks like that on primers but no pressure signs. Just comes from a larger than normal firing pin hole.

Those cases were probably shot in large military machine gun chambers like a M249 and when sized back down left them weak in that area.
 
#58
Re: Case exploded today !!!

I have a handful of identical cases shot out of an AR. Very simply - too much powder in the case. That is where they let go. The actions are designed to vent the gas away from your face for exactly that type of failure. I've not experienced any damage to the firearm with mine; yours must have been way over.

It has also been a belief by some that roll sizing can make this occur. I know my failures occurred with Scharch roll sized brass, which could have contributed as well, but the loads were hot also. Right on the edge, so not every one failed. Also mine were loaded with ball powder. My suspicion is the pressure spike on the ball powder is more dramatic than with stick.

I would be pulling the bullets on some of these and doing some measurements of what is inside. I'm sure Hornady will be when they get the stuff back.
 
#59
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow look at them primers after i would have seen a few of them i would have called it quits!!!

They look like they are running on ragged edge!! What was the load?
</div></div>

Primers do look deeply cratered. Doesn't that suggest a Head space issue? Or an excessively large firing pin orifice? Both? Neither?

Edit,

Sorry, hadn't seen Rob's last post.
 
#60
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Probably as mentioned before, an overly large firing pin hole. The differing hardnesses of the cups can explain the last two pictures...FGMM primers are relatively soft...Black Hills may be using a harder primer cup, such as CCI. JMHO
 
#61
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably as mentioned before, an overly large firing pin hole. The differing hardnesses of the cups can explain the last two pictures...FGMM primers are relatively soft...Black Hills may be using a harder primer cup, such as CCI. JMHO </div></div>

Exactly.
 
#62
Re: Case exploded today !!!

If I may add, the priming composition/volume could be of issue as well.

As I've stated in another thread, I too had a rifle grenade on me at the chamber. First thing I did (the next day) was bring it in to my gunsmith instructor. He stated that it was too much priming comp. in there.

My chamber had split in 5 places. And this was only a .22 as well. He'd stated that even if the cartridge had been overcharged, to even a compressed load, there wouldn't be enough pressure to do that amount of damage. But, overprime it, and it can easily be reached.

The company responsible more than looked after me. Offered to pay all medical bills, replaced my rifle with one much better, replaced my Serengeti's, and gave me a block of ammo, to boot.

As shown on the previous page with another .22, I'm thinking that this is more likely a contributing factor than others may realize.

Or, I can be totally nuts, and on the wrong page altogether.

I don't shoot, and don't let anyone shoot with me, without eye AND ear protection. To do otherwise is just stupid. And WE are the responsible ones, aren't we?
 
#64
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Just a couple of other thoughts.

It looks like a classic case of reloaded ammo resized to minimum spec. so it will fit into any chamber, fired in a gun cut with a maximum size chamber so it will fire any ammo.

Bulk reloaders usually do this and Remington has a reputation for max. size chambers.

As mentioned, the primer doesn't really look like super high pressures, i.e. flat on the edges. It looks like the firing pin is knocking the round forward in the chamber to fire and then the primer is flowing back into the (probably oversize) firing pin hole (another Remington standard).

It's always a question with reloaded ammo, what gun fired it previously? The reason you don't fire higher pressure (i.e. .40 S&W or 9mm) reloads in a Glock is that Glocks leave a bigger area of the chamber over the feed ramp un-supported, resulting in a stressed area of the brass there. If the same stressed area ended up over the ramp again in a reload the brass could let go. Stories abound. You may have experienced something simular.

Reloads back into the same gun is best, resized for that gun.
 
#65
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Well, this got me to order some oakley glasses for shooting. I hated the cheapo safety glasses I've been wearing, and more lately not wearing because they were never comfortable.

Once again, although people have had bad experiences, we all learn from one another, and thank you for your posts and sharing. It certainly is making our community much better.
 
#66
Re: Case exploded today !!!

This thread is getting me to reconsider eye protection. Although I wear glasses on a regular basis, more often tham not, I can't get a comfortable sight picture through my scope in prone position because of the glasses and start pushing them towards the tip of my nose to get them out of the way. This obviously provides little protection.

Has anyone found a set of glasses that don't interfere when shooting prone?

--Rootshot
 
#67
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Let me throw something out there that may or may not have been addressed. (I didn't read every response thoroughly). The brass in question is Lake City Brass. Right? Pretty thick stuff as I remember... BUT... Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to mess with the primer cup on that brass to get it to take a new primer? From what I remember you need to remove a little brass from around the edge of the cup to get it to accept another primer because of the way they are originally manufactured. Could be that too much brass was removed on that one... or even that batch. Just my $0.02.

 
#68
Re: Case exploded today !!!

OneShot,

From Tony's post above:

Look at the primers on these.

96023566.jpg


To refer to your question,
Looking at these case heads suggests aggressive crimp reaming, but no other primer problems. It is possible that swaging the crimp out of the primer pockets could cause a problem but I can't say how likely it is to be the cause of Shooters excitement.
 
#70
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Agreed, Those do look pretty aggressively reamed. Maybe the pitch of the tool used was different and dug deeper instead of wider. I don't know... I just thought I'd throw that out there as a possible cause. Good illustration! I hadn't looked that closely at that picture. Thanks!
 
#73
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Can you take some of that unfired 3-D ammo and check it in a case gauge and mic. the base to see if it was sized in a "small base" type sizing die.
How does it "read" next the fed. that works for you?
Have you checked the headspace in your rifle?
Glad YOU have ALL of YOUR parts!
Respectfully,
LG
 
#74
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's what I refer to as cratering but I'm prepared for additional edumication! </div></div>

Take a look at the primers pictured above which show the over aggressive crimp reaming. Notice the pronounced raised ridge around the round indentation of the firing pin. That ridge is higher than the surrounding primer thereby resembling a crater from a meteor or the like.

The reason for that "crater" is often that the hole in the bolt face through which the firing pin passes is alot larger that the pin which permits primer cup material to flow back into the extra space around the pin.
 
#77
Re: Case exploded today !!!

The last public range I went to it was mandatory to wear both eye and ear protection. When on my own I tend to be 50/50 at wearing glasses, maybe I'll start wearing them more.

 
#79
Re: Case exploded today !!!

If you punch out one of those primers you'll probably see a small ridge around the primer head...sort of like a rivet. That will be the result of the over reaming of the pocket prior to reloading. Since the primer didn't flatten out completely, I feel overpressure is out. The rimfire case that blew could have been due to excessive priming compound...but I don't see how triple or more priming compound could be inserted and contained inside a standard rifle primer. No room. The rimfire case could hold a lot more of the compound without spilling over. I'd bet on a fault in the brass, probably due to mistreatment by the machinegun firing as mentioned earlier. JMHO
 
#80
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Is it just me, in those pictures the primer looks like it backed out a bunch? Take a before and after case check and measure the dia. of the case head and H/S the case too. Could that ammo have been under sized(what I mean is to small)for the chamber?
Respectfully,
LG
 
#81
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Blew my 1911 up shooting the 94 Montana State Championships. Picked pieces of slide out of my face and arms but my new shooting glasses saved my eyes. The glasses had several large gouges in them. Do yourself a favor Wear Your Glasses
 
#82
Re: Case exploded today !!!

The biggest lesson to be learned here as stated before is WEAR EYE PROTECTION.

Last year I made the mistake I didin't, had a pierced primer on a 223, made a trip to the ER and then a trip to an opthamologist so she could pick bits of primer shit out of my eye with a needle. It wasn't fun. Don't try it.

Glad you had your glasses on.
 
#84
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Question on conditions and ammo storage the day of the match.
Was it hot and was the ammo in the sun or in your vehicle?
I was wondering is ammo temp came into play.
 
#85
Re: Case exploded today !!!

No, we started the match at 9 am when it was cool and we shot under a shaded roof the entire match. Ammo was not exposed to sunlight at all.
 
#86
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a handful of identical cases shot out of an AR. Very simply - too much powder in the case. That is where they let go. The actions are designed to vent the gas away from your face for exactly that type of failure. I've not experienced any damage to the firearm with mine; yours must have been way over.

It has also been a belief by some that roll sizing can make this occur. I know my failures occurred with Scharch roll sized brass, which could have contributed as well, but the loads were hot also. Right on the edge, so not every one failed. Also mine were loaded with ball powder. My suspicion is the pressure spike on the ball powder is more dramatic than with stick.

I would be pulling the bullets on some of these and doing some measurements of what is inside. I'm sure Hornady will be when they get the stuff back. </div></div>

9H;
School me on roll-sizing. Never heard that, though the backyard machinist in me has an idea.
Sounds like a "factory" thing, maybe?
 
#87
Re: Case exploded today !!!

reminds me of the time I fired a .270 from my buddies 7mm RM. same sort of case failure and the brass and powder in the face treatment. i knew i should ahve checked the rifle before just chambering a round and firing it. at least it was his rifle.
 
#88
Re: Case exploded today !!!

WOW! Looking at that case, I would offer the OPINION that the remanufacturer had a couple of grains of powder hang up in the throw. Glad to hear you are OK
Pardon anniversary- Flattened primers are a sign of too much pressure and you need to back off your powder charge. look in your reloading manual, and you should see this under "pressure problems"
 
#89
Re: Case exploded today !!!


That looks familiar.

I got ~8,000 pieces of mixed .223 brass at the gun show for $65.
I processed some of it while watching TV.
Probably some of it was stretched by an AR15, and I did not notice.

On a rodent shooting trip, my friend, Den, could not reach the prairie dogs with his 17HRM, so the Indian guide loans him his .223.
I give him some .223 ammo that I loaded.
He never gives the rest of the ammo back.

Later Den goes out and buys a new Rem700 .223.
Den goes to a prairie dog town, a case fails that I loaded, and Den has to stop hunting and find a doctor.
Now I am the bad guy.
So Den wears safety glasses with my ammo and handloads his own with new brass.

link to the picture of the failed case

Since then, in an unrelated problem, that Rem700 has started piercing primers. The firing pin to firing pin hole fit is not good.

What does it all mean?
Scrap the rem700 and get a Ruger #1V in .223.
The #1 has the hammer inside the block, so failed case gas cannot hit the shooter.
 
#91
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Response from Hornady...


I looked into this and it looks like a defective case. I thought it
looked like some high pressure as first but where the case failed, the
split went into the primer pocket which caused the primer pocket to get
larger. This caused the primer to come out. This is a defect in the case
when it was made. This is one reason to do not manufacture reman ammo
any longer because there is no way to guarantee the quality of the
brass. It is kind of like buying a used tire.
This is reman ammo and we normally can not replace this round for round
with 75gr match ammo. I usually offer the customer the opportunity to
choose ether from Item number 9760EL, round for round, which is a
lacquered case with a 75 gr. BTHP w/c. or equal dollar amount of a ammo
of there choice.
I tried to call you and explain this but there was no answer. If you
would like to talk about this feel free to call me and let me know what
you would like to do.
 
#93
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Wow. That must be a really SCARY experience. I hope everything works out. Just out of curiosity though how did the shrapnel get to your face if the bolt was completely closed?
 
#95
Re: Case exploded today !!!

Maybe just me, but I would expect more from Hornady......the guy blows a case, damages his rifle and himself due to defective ammo and Hornady wants to give him steel cased lacquered ammo in trade for the defective ammo they sold???

I'd expect them to be begging me to let them fix or replace my rifle, give me a few cases of their best ammo and hope I didn't sue them for negligence!
 
#96
Re: Case exploded today !!!

I vote bad brass. Its history most likely either has bad heat exposure which annealed the casehead, or exposure to too much ammonia somehow. Third and last possibility would be an inclusion or other forming defect which held for the previous firing(s) but finally let go.

For a great discussion about how bad steel held up for hundreds of firing cycles, see: http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb/762r.html.

It is my understanding that ammonia embrittlement will show on either or both microscopic and chemical analysis.

I do not know if the failure dynamics would work-harden the casehead and cover up an annealing defect. The tell-tale surface discoloration would have been polished away when making those USGI cases so shiny. Notice that the anneal does not show on the casenecks.

I would expect that a void or inclusion defect in the ammo would show on microscopic inspection. The metallurgists here can chime in and tell us whether chemical etching would help determine/locate the point of defect.

I'm confident that the reason can be found.

Hey, there are 3 pages to this thread!
 
#97
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GonHuntin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe just me, but I would expect more from Hornady......the guy blows a case, damages his rifle and himself due to defective ammo and Hornady wants to give him steel cased lacquered ammo in trade for the defective ammo they sold???

I'd expect them to be begging me to let them fix or replace my rifle, give me a few cases of their best ammo and hope I didn't sue them for negligence! </div></div>

I'm with GonHuttin. When I buy factory ammo, I do not expect it to explode in your face. When I reload, I understand the risks involved and roll the dice.

So they are gonna offer some steel cased laquered stuff 1 for 1 after their product damaged your rifle and possibly hurt you ? You guys are way too kind.
 
#98
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a handful of identical cases shot out of an AR. Very simply - too much powder in the case. That is where they let go. The actions are designed to vent the gas away from your face for exactly that type of failure. I've not experienced any damage to the firearm with mine; yours must have been way over.

It has also been a belief by some that roll sizing can make this occur. I know my failures occurred with Scharch roll sized brass, which could have contributed as well, but the loads were hot also. Right on the edge, so not every one failed. Also mine were loaded with ball powder. My suspicion is the pressure spike on the ball powder is more dramatic than with stick.

I would be pulling the bullets on some of these and doing some measurements of what is inside. I'm sure Hornady will be when they get the stuff back. </div></div>

9H;
School me on roll-sizing. Never heard that, though the backyard machinist in me has an idea.
Sounds like a "factory" thing, maybe? </div></div>

Roll sizing is where they roll the case between two sizing plates and size the cases down that way. The two plates are profiled for the case and have the added benefit of dressing the extractor groove and, some say, potentially tightening the primer pocket some (I think the primer pocket point is b.s. myself). Some say it may work harden the case head and cause cracks there. There is a company named Case Pro that makes one for pistol cartridges. http://www.casepro100.com/
 
#100
Re: Case exploded today !!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So they are gonna offer some steel cased laquered stuff 1 for 1 after their product damaged your rifle and possibly hurt you ? You guys are way too kind. </div></div>

There was some discussion as to who loaded the ammo, if it was reman'd via Hornady or reman'd via 3-D via Hornady. Now that 3-D is owned by Hornaday it's very difficult to push anything from 3-D since they don't exist and Hornady since they didn't directly load it.

I still think the 1:1 laquered ammo trade is BS. They should be offering him 1:1 on match ammo and fixing any damage to the rifle IMO if for no other reason than to protect their company reputation.

The customer support is very disappointing. Makes me question how they'd stand behind a bullet failure during a tropy hunt. Prove to them that they're InterBond bullets failed to perform with good shot placement so you lost the trophy and wounded an animal needlessly they'd probably tell you "we'll give you 1:1 trade on a new bullet, you pay shipping"
 
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