Anyone know the volume difference between new Remington 300 win mag brass and new Winchester 300 win mag brass?
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Re: Case volume
Are you looking for water weight?
I have some R-P I'll water weigh for you, but no Win.
Are you looking for water weight?
I have some R-P I'll water weigh for you, but no Win.
Re: Case volume
Water weight will measure the volume, a direct correlation.
Winchester has long had a somewhat harder bress than Remington. That means the WW walls can be thinner for a given pressure and that means a little more volume. But it's not a massive difference, just a tad.
Remington's softer brass means it usually lasts a bit longer for reloading.
Which is "better"? Your call!
Water weight will measure the volume, a direct correlation.
Winchester has long had a somewhat harder bress than Remington. That means the WW walls can be thinner for a given pressure and that means a little more volume. But it's not a massive difference, just a tad.
Remington's softer brass means it usually lasts a bit longer for reloading.
Which is "better"? Your call!
Re: Case volume
I thought volume and weight is different? You can have different volumes depending on what your filling the case with. If you use water for measuring the volume it would be in cc's, then you could measure the weight of the water if desired.....but I don't thing you need it. Even if solving for the unknown weight, you would still need the volume or what the case will hold, wouldn't you?
I thought volume and weight is different? You can have different volumes depending on what your filling the case with. If you use water for measuring the volume it would be in cc's, then you could measure the weight of the water if desired.....but I don't thing you need it. Even if solving for the unknown weight, you would still need the volume or what the case will hold, wouldn't you?
Re: Case volume
Yes, the correct units for measuring water 'volume' would be something like 'cubic centimeters', but how would you suggest the average home hobbyist go about measuring that to the levels we're working with? Most people don't have the equipment to measure liquid volume anywhere near that fine. The commonly accepted 'standard' of measurement is weighing the water that it takes to fill the case to the mouth, and reporting it as 'XX.X gn of water weight'. Even interior ballistic programs like QuickLoad use water weight.
Yes, the correct units for measuring water 'volume' would be something like 'cubic centimeters', but how would you suggest the average home hobbyist go about measuring that to the levels we're working with? Most people don't have the equipment to measure liquid volume anywhere near that fine. The commonly accepted 'standard' of measurement is weighing the water that it takes to fill the case to the mouth, and reporting it as 'XX.X gn of water weight'. Even interior ballistic programs like QuickLoad use water weight.
Re: Case volume
A question about water weight:
Would I be correct in assumeing you measure the volume after resizing?
I assume I'm supposed to do all the case prep then prime the brass with an old spent primer weigh before then zero the scale and weigh again with the case full of water.
A question about water weight:
Would I be correct in assumeing you measure the volume after resizing?
I assume I'm supposed to do all the case prep then prime the brass with an old spent primer weigh before then zero the scale and weigh again with the case full of water.
Re: Case volume
Ideally you would measure volume of a fired and unsized case - that way you get some indication of the volume of *your* particular chamber, which is what brass casing is going to expand to on firing anyways.
One way is to take a fired case with the primer still in it, weigh it, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Subtract the two and there is your water volume.
Add a drop of dish soap to the container of water you are drawing from to lower the surface tension - it reduces the chance of bubbles in the water on the inside of the case under the shoulder, and reduces the height of the meniscus at the case mouth.
The only problem with spent primers is that you have no way of knowing if they have a consistent volume themselves - some have tumbling media in them (if you cleaned your cases beforehand), some might have more 'gunk' left in them than others. The guy who sells QuickLoad recommended taking a bit of thick grease and filling the primer pocket - but not to extend through the flash hole, which I have not tried yet. Another person I know recommends sticking the case on the point of a wood golf tee - the unpainted ones work best for this. Little bit of a balancing act, though.
HTH,
Monte
Ideally you would measure volume of a fired and unsized case - that way you get some indication of the volume of *your* particular chamber, which is what brass casing is going to expand to on firing anyways.
One way is to take a fired case with the primer still in it, weigh it, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Subtract the two and there is your water volume.
Add a drop of dish soap to the container of water you are drawing from to lower the surface tension - it reduces the chance of bubbles in the water on the inside of the case under the shoulder, and reduces the height of the meniscus at the case mouth.
The only problem with spent primers is that you have no way of knowing if they have a consistent volume themselves - some have tumbling media in them (if you cleaned your cases beforehand), some might have more 'gunk' left in them than others. The guy who sells QuickLoad recommended taking a bit of thick grease and filling the primer pocket - but not to extend through the flash hole, which I have not tried yet. Another person I know recommends sticking the case on the point of a wood golf tee - the unpainted ones work best for this. Little bit of a balancing act, though.
HTH,
Monte
Re: Case volume
So if I got everyone corectly you would weigh once fired Remington & Winchester brass, then fill both with water and weight both again. If your just using a weight difference then I guess you could use find white sand......right?
So if I got everyone corectly you would weigh once fired Remington & Winchester brass, then fill both with water and weight both again. If your just using a weight difference then I guess you could use find white sand......right?
Re: Case volume
Sure... use whatever you like. Some people use rubbing alcohol, others use a very fine powder like Ramshot TAC. The de facto standard though, is H20. That way you have some measure of reference to the numbers other people might use - if you care. As an example... my Lapua cases have about 55.7-55.8gr water capacity, and my Winchester cases have around 57.10gr water cap. The former weigh ~173gr, the later ~157gr (average case weight).
Sure... use whatever you like. Some people use rubbing alcohol, others use a very fine powder like Ramshot TAC. The de facto standard though, is H20. That way you have some measure of reference to the numbers other people might use - if you care. As an example... my Lapua cases have about 55.7-55.8gr water capacity, and my Winchester cases have around 57.10gr water cap. The former weigh ~173gr, the later ~157gr (average case weight).
Re: Case volume
dj,
Uh, actually the reason folks use water is the direct correlation between the weight of the water and the volume in ccs. 1.0 gram of water equals 1 cc. in volume. Sand has a different density, so you have to divide the weight of the sand by the density of the sand to get the volume. Since sand isn't a fluid, you can get varying amounts of sand in a particular case. Most of the time the differences won't amount to much, but the measurement won't be as accurate.
memilanuk,
The correct way to measure volume with water is with the meniscus reaching a natural curve above the rim of the mouth. You shouldn't use anything to break the surface tension.
HTH,
DocB
dj,
Uh, actually the reason folks use water is the direct correlation between the weight of the water and the volume in ccs. 1.0 gram of water equals 1 cc. in volume. Sand has a different density, so you have to divide the weight of the sand by the density of the sand to get the volume. Since sand isn't a fluid, you can get varying amounts of sand in a particular case. Most of the time the differences won't amount to much, but the measurement won't be as accurate.
memilanuk,
The correct way to measure volume with water is with the meniscus reaching a natural curve above the rim of the mouth. You shouldn't use anything to break the surface tension.
HTH,
DocB
Re: Case volume
Doc,
Perhaps so... but I (and apparently others) find it easier to get a consistent reading of the meniscus when it is relatively flat. I don't really care about water sticking up above the case mouth - thats false weight that isn't really in the case, IMHO.
Thanks,
Monte
Doc,
Perhaps so... but I (and apparently others) find it easier to get a consistent reading of the meniscus when it is relatively flat. I don't really care about water sticking up above the case mouth - thats false weight that isn't really in the case, IMHO.
Thanks,
Monte
Re: Case volume
So if you use water, are you measuring the water as you fill the case or fill the case then weight the water? It seems to me that if you just put water in a case then try and weight it by dumping it out, there will probably residual water left in the case. But then again if everyone is using water........
So if you use water, are you measuring the water as you fill the case or fill the case then weight the water? It seems to me that if you just put water in a case then try and weight it by dumping it out, there will probably residual water left in the case. But then again if everyone is using water........
Re: Case volume
Sigh... One more time...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One way is to take a fired case with the primer still in it, weigh it, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Subtract the two and there is your water volume.</div></div>
Sigh... One more time...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One way is to take a fired case with the primer still in it, weigh it, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Subtract the two and there is your water volume.</div></div>
Re: Case volume
If you want to know how much powder of a specific type it will hold, pour in a case full, dump and weigh it. ?
If you want the actual volume, weigh the cmpty case, fill with water and weigh again. Convert to grams/CC and then to cubic inches and, voila!, you have it!
Of course you understand that you will have the precise volume to the limits of the case neck, not what it will be with a seated bullet, right?
Actually, you are fanning at smoke. Compairing case volumes really has no value except in comparisons of cartridges, usually of the same caliber. Otherwise, we just develop a load and shoot it. The volume is not changeable anyway so it makes no difference, IF we load correctly.
Come to think of it, it makes even less difference if we load incorrectly!
If you want to know how much powder of a specific type it will hold, pour in a case full, dump and weigh it. ?
If you want the actual volume, weigh the cmpty case, fill with water and weigh again. Convert to grams/CC and then to cubic inches and, voila!, you have it!
Of course you understand that you will have the precise volume to the limits of the case neck, not what it will be with a seated bullet, right?
Actually, you are fanning at smoke. Compairing case volumes really has no value except in comparisons of cartridges, usually of the same caliber. Otherwise, we just develop a load and shoot it. The volume is not changeable anyway so it makes no difference, IF we load correctly.
Come to think of it, it makes even less difference if we load incorrectly!
Re: Case volume
The volume *does* make somewhat of a difference, inside the same cartridge. Try sticking a maximum load developed Winchester brass in a Lapua case. If you're lucky, all it'll do is ruin the primer pockets. If you're not lucky, you may be in for a trip to the gunsmith for some minor repairs. Of course, the usual mantra about backing down and working back up after any major component change applies here as always.
Actually, if you dig around, there may already be threads or posts containing approx. water volume for different brands of brass. It may vary somewhat by time period, lot, what kind of chamber it was fired in, etc. but there probably won't be a whole lot of difference between the volume of a given brand case fired in my chamber vs. your chamber - maybe a couple tenths of a grain of water weight (whatever that works out to in CCs). Not nearly as much as there is between extremes of brands (say, Winchester vs. Lapua or Federal).
The volume *does* make somewhat of a difference, inside the same cartridge. Try sticking a maximum load developed Winchester brass in a Lapua case. If you're lucky, all it'll do is ruin the primer pockets. If you're not lucky, you may be in for a trip to the gunsmith for some minor repairs. Of course, the usual mantra about backing down and working back up after any major component change applies here as always.
Actually, if you dig around, there may already be threads or posts containing approx. water volume for different brands of brass. It may vary somewhat by time period, lot, what kind of chamber it was fired in, etc. but there probably won't be a whole lot of difference between the volume of a given brand case fired in my chamber vs. your chamber - maybe a couple tenths of a grain of water weight (whatever that works out to in CCs). Not nearly as much as there is between extremes of brands (say, Winchester vs. Lapua or Federal).
Re: Case volume
Duh.....
Shouldn't the case be resized? Would a resized case and a once fired case have the exact volume?
Duh.....
Shouldn't the case be resized? Would a resized case and a once fired case have the exact volume?
Re: Case volume
I use the same powder I'll be loading with, so I get a handle on how my load compares on the basis of load density percentage. I like my loads to have high percentages.
I use the same powder I'll be loading with, so I get a handle on how my load compares on the basis of load density percentage. I like my loads to have high percentages.
Re: Case volume
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dj70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Duh.....
Shouldn't the case be resized? Would a resized case and a once fired case have the exact volume? </div></div>
As the cartridge is fired, the brass casing will yield to the pressure within and form to the inside of the chamber. Granted, it contracts slightly thereafter (or else we wouldn't be able to get it out of the chamber), but in essence when it is fire(form)ed and not yet sized, it gives us a pretty fair representation of the pressure vessel that matters during firing - the inside of the chamber, with the brass casing as a 'liner'. When you size the case, it now is somewhat smaller in any number of dimensions. How much depends on how you are sizing (neck, full), how 'big' your chamber is compared to your dies, etc. Is there a huge difference? Not always. But most people when they F/L resize, also decap - which means if you want to measure volume, now you have to put primers back in. No biggy. Actually if you're really bored, try it both ways. Take some fired cases with primers still in, weigh 'em, fill with water, weigh 'em again. Dump 'em out, and let them dry thoroughly (stick em in the oven @ 135-140F for an hour or so speeds things up considerably). Then do your normal sizing and case prep, but instead of a 'new' primer, stick the same spent ones back in the cases they came out of, and do the weigh-water-weigh sequence again. I know I've done it at least once, but my notes are a little... sparse
at times.
Good luck,
Monte
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dj70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Duh.....
Shouldn't the case be resized? Would a resized case and a once fired case have the exact volume? </div></div>
As the cartridge is fired, the brass casing will yield to the pressure within and form to the inside of the chamber. Granted, it contracts slightly thereafter (or else we wouldn't be able to get it out of the chamber), but in essence when it is fire(form)ed and not yet sized, it gives us a pretty fair representation of the pressure vessel that matters during firing - the inside of the chamber, with the brass casing as a 'liner'. When you size the case, it now is somewhat smaller in any number of dimensions. How much depends on how you are sizing (neck, full), how 'big' your chamber is compared to your dies, etc. Is there a huge difference? Not always. But most people when they F/L resize, also decap - which means if you want to measure volume, now you have to put primers back in. No biggy. Actually if you're really bored, try it both ways. Take some fired cases with primers still in, weigh 'em, fill with water, weigh 'em again. Dump 'em out, and let them dry thoroughly (stick em in the oven @ 135-140F for an hour or so speeds things up considerably). Then do your normal sizing and case prep, but instead of a 'new' primer, stick the same spent ones back in the cases they came out of, and do the weigh-water-weigh sequence again. I know I've done it at least once, but my notes are a little... sparse
Good luck,
Monte
Re: Case volume
"The volume *does* make somewhat of a difference, inside the same cartridge. Try sticking a maximum load developed Winchester brass in a Lapua case."
Yes, but I think you missed my point. If we're loading Rem or Win or Lau or Fed, et al, it is what it is and no amount of calculating the volume will change anything, per se.
Certainly cases have slightly different volumes by brand, AND by lots of a given brand, but we load and shoot what we have. That means loading according to the volume of each brand and lot of cases. No one measures the average or specific volume of any batch of cases and changes the load according to a formula on a case by case basis. We shoot it, see the results and change the charge accordingly, making measuring the volumes of cases largely pointless.
Certainly, arbitraly changing cases can run pressures up or down, but so might the normal variations within the same brand and lot. NO truly safe charge will KABOOM with a normal change in case volume, it just isn't that great. Anyone loading on the ragged edge of case rupture is foolish.
"The volume *does* make somewhat of a difference, inside the same cartridge. Try sticking a maximum load developed Winchester brass in a Lapua case."
Yes, but I think you missed my point. If we're loading Rem or Win or Lau or Fed, et al, it is what it is and no amount of calculating the volume will change anything, per se.
Certainly cases have slightly different volumes by brand, AND by lots of a given brand, but we load and shoot what we have. That means loading according to the volume of each brand and lot of cases. No one measures the average or specific volume of any batch of cases and changes the load according to a formula on a case by case basis. We shoot it, see the results and change the charge accordingly, making measuring the volumes of cases largely pointless.
Certainly, arbitraly changing cases can run pressures up or down, but so might the normal variations within the same brand and lot. NO truly safe charge will KABOOM with a normal change in case volume, it just isn't that great. Anyone loading on the ragged edge of case rupture is foolish.
