CCI 450 / BR4 primer experiences?

[DownhillFromHere]

Would anyone care to comment on past ignition issues with CCI 450 or BR4 primers? This is not a gripe thread. I'm more curious than anything.

New experience for me: 15-30% failure to fire rate with CCI 450-primed new .223 Starline brass in Tikka T3X Varmint. Headspace is fine, checked with Wilson gauge. No previous FTF issues with any factory ammo. The same brass primed with CCI 400s has 100% ignition reliability - but those primers are so soft that even minimal .223 loads show excessive flattening with three different powders. See image below.

I've only loaded 25 rounds of Peterson 6.5CM SRP brass with these 450s; no problem there so far.

I've read a number of threads on different sites that suggests CCI 450 and BR4 are hard/thick enough that some platforms simply won't fire them reliably. Anyone here experience that?

There are numerous threads about light primer strikes with Tikka T3s; I disassembled the bolt today and verified that the firing pin assembly is moving freely and even went so far as to remove the scope and MDT 20MOA rail and take the action out of the MDT chassis. The firing pin indentation depth with the naked barreled action is the same as with the rail and scope in place and action mounted in chassis.

This is not a complaint per se - obviously there are multiple primer choices. I'm just a bit surprised, and curious whether other SH members have encountered the issue. Any thoughts/experiences are appreciated.

In the image below, the left two primed cases were "fired" without powder/bullet for comparison - one in an AR with milspec fire control unit, the other in the Tikka. The primer strikes look sufficient to me. The case 2nd from right was loaded with CCI450, 24.0gr H335, and 77gr SMK - a bit stiff. The rightmost case was loaded with a mild charge of 22.3gr H335 behind the same 77gr SMK, but with CCI 400. Note the degree of flattening. With a CCI 450 primer, I don't see that much flattening short of 24.5gr H335. Edit: the H335 load data specified Winchester SRP, which reportedly has 0.021" cup thickness. CCI 400=0.020", CCI 450=0.025" thickness.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

I dont reload for bolt guns with SRP, but I use the 450s in my AR. Have an elftman trigger which lights them off fine. I personally don't really care about primer flattening as much as ejector marks. Unless the primers are blowing out, or letting molten death eat your bolt, why not just run the 400s? Or the winchesters? I've also had decent luck with Remington and wolf primers.

 

[LawnMM]

Pull the bullets that didn't fire. Thought I had three or four no bang cartridges laying around, finally pulled them apart to toss back in the bucket for processing and guess what... No powder.

They've been 100% for me.

 

[Armored Transport]

I have been using BR4's in bolt guns for quite a while. My primer seater ( 21st Century ) has the ability to adjust seating depth of the primer. I seat the BR4's 8K below flush in Lapua brass and they all go bang...........Happy Shooting.

 

[Nimothy]

Would anyone care to comment on past ignition issues with CCI 450 or BR4 primers? This is not a gripe thread. I'm more curious than anything.

New experience for me: 15-30% failure to fire rate with CCI 450-primed new .223 Starline brass in Tikka T3X Varmint. Headspace is fine, checked with Wilson gauge. No previous FTF issues with any factory ammo. The same brass primed with CCI 400s has 100% ignition reliability - but those primers are so soft that even minimal .223 loads show excessive flattening with three different powders. See image below.

I've only loaded 25 rounds of Peterson 6.5CM SRP brass with these 450s; no problem there so far.

I've read a number of threads on different sites that suggests CCI 450 and BR4 are hard/thick enough that some platforms simply won't fire them reliably. Anyone here experience that?

There are numerous threads about light primer strikes with Tikka T3s; I disassembled the bolt today and verified that the firing pin assembly is moving freely and even went so far as to remove the scope and MDT 20MOA rail and take the action out of the MDT chassis. The firing pin indentation depth with the naked barreled action is the same as with the rail and scope in place and action mounted in chassis.

This is not a complaint per se - obviously there are multiple primer choices. I'm just a bit surprised, and curious whether other SH members have encountered the issue. Any thoughts/experiences are appreciated.

In the image below, the left two primed cases were "fired" without powder/bullet for comparison - one in an AR with milspec fire control unit, the other in the Tikka. The primer strikes look sufficient to me. The case 2nd from right was loaded with CCI450, 24.0gr H335, and 77gr SMK - a bit stiff. The rightmost case was loaded with a mild charge of 22.3gr H335 behind the same 77gr SMK, but with CCI 400. Note the degree of flattening. With a CCI 450 primer, I don't see that much flattening short of 24.5gr H335. Edit: the H335 load data specified Winchester SRP, which reportedly has 0.021" cup thickness. CCI 400=0.020", CCI 450=0.025" thickness.

View attachment 7175960

I had this problem in my 6bra, I switched to federal 205m and man it’s been smooth sailing ever since. Plus I found they made my load more consistent across everything I load that takes small rifle.

 

[strat81]

There are a few possible reasons:
-Bum primers from the factory. But a failure rate of 15-30% seems really, really unlikely.
-Contaminated primers.
-Primers not seated deeply enough. Accurate Shooter Link Inconsistent pocket depth may cause seating depth issues if you're using a priming tool with a fixed depth.
-Cartridge not seated fully in chamber due to dirty chamber, bolt, or ammo.
-Weak firing pin spring.
-Firing pin too short.

 

[Bruce A.]

I have not been able to verify, but I have seen comments that the BR4 is a harder primer equaling the #41. Untrue?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Ironic that a post was made to this nearly-2-month-old thread, given my intent to update it with new information.

Short version: problem appears to be resolved. Read on for how it was resolved (no thanks whatsoever to Beretta).

After posting this thread, I bought a box (1000) of Winchester SRPs. While the FTF rate was not as high as with CCI450s, it was still 10-15%. This ain'ta'gonna fly.

So my LGS sent the rifle back to Beretta. After five weeks, it came back. Ninth (9th) round in failed to fire.

So I took it to my gunsmith for perusal and conversation. I had the bolt disassembled down to bolt body, shroud, and firing pin/spring assembly. While noting that he was unsure of how to get the spring off the firing pin, he noted pretty quickly that the firing pin itself was quite thick (0.070") compared to two other actions he had on his bench (0.060") and that the pin tip itself was noticeably blunt. I had brought a number of fired and dud cases and we talked about how the primer indentations were unusually flat at the bottom (see the image in the first post to this thread).

CAVEAT: WHAT FOLLOWS SHOULD NOT BE UNDERTAKEN BY UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE. So, he put the pin (with spring in place) in his lathe and very carefully removed an infinitesimal amount of metal from the tip, giving the tip to a more rounded (versus flatter) profile. Overall length of the pin was unchanged.

A trip to the range gave me a 100% "bang" rate and the primer indentations are more typical - rounded, not flat, at the bottom (of course, an over-sharp tip could result in pierced primers). It appears the issue is resolved. Sample size was only about 20 rounds, but heretofore I'd get two or three FTFs out of 20 rounds.

Coincidentally, I had a call in to Mountain Tactical seeking advice, which was returned this afternoon. Greg told me that the springs on T3X firing pins are extremely strong, which makes the assembly extremely difficult to reassemble if one gets it apart. He was quite interested to hear about the firing pin profile modification. We all learned something.

 

[47guy]

i need to read before i post.

 

[Biff2]

I would like to add that what he calls a "Mild load of 22.3gr of h335 is near MAX load on Hodgedons. 24gr of 334 + 77gr bullet is way over Max load.

The CCI primers being softer give a little more feedback on pressure. Would be interesting to see loads of 21gr (mild) to the max of 22.6gr
Seems the CCI 400s are fine for that range. Flattening is ok as long as you are not piercing.

On quickload I get 80,000 PSI with 24gr of 335 + 77 SMK bullet.

Hodgdon does not even list the pressure as its over MAX.

Hodgdon - 77gr + H335

21.0

2,582

44,400 CUP

22.6

2,738

51,700 CUP

Hornady - 62 gr + H335
20.1 - 22.9 MAX

Lyman 77gr + H335
22.5 - 25.0 MAX

Of 4 different load sources only lyman has a different max.

I would say a CCI 450 would have less chance of blowing out if you are going to run HOT loads.