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CCW holder killed along with police in Las Vegas
- Thread starter diverdon
- Start date
There are a lot of experts on this but I am not one of them. If it were me I would only draw my weapon if there was imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of grave bodily harm or death to myself or another innocent person. If I had to do it I am aware that there is a good chance that I would go from being comfortably retired at a relativity young age to desperately seeking work.
I'm sure that eventually there will be security camera footage released of the incident involving the ccw holder. Until then I'm not gonna second guess the guy.
Nearly 15 years ago I had to use my carry piece in a self defense situation. It's not something I talk about very often, but there's not many days that I don't think about it and the repercussions from the incident. The couple of months afterwards waiting on a decision from the grand jury were pure hell. And it was also hell on the other party's family as I new them at the time. Needless to say I haven't had any contact with them since shortly after the incident. I still carry daily but after that experience I'm more likely to try to exhaust all other options before clearing leather. Especially in a situation like the guy in Vegas. Just my two cents.
Matt
Nearly 15 years ago I had to use my carry piece in a self defense situation. It's not something I talk about very often, but there's not many days that I don't think about it and the repercussions from the incident. The couple of months afterwards waiting on a decision from the grand jury were pure hell. And it was also hell on the other party's family as I new them at the time. Needless to say I haven't had any contact with them since shortly after the incident. I still carry daily but after that experience I'm more likely to try to exhaust all other options before clearing leather. Especially in a situation like the guy in Vegas. Just my two cents.
Matt
Yes and no in my eyes each state laws are different, a lawyer could give you the best answer. When you shoot someone in my eyes the legal and illegal part goes out the door. Basically what you do with your firearm is your choice, legally or illegally. It could be wrong or right, you have to make the choice and live with the decision you made!!! For example you go to the bank and your next in line at the teller. Now all of sudden 3 guys rush in with guns drawn and shoot one round in the ceiling and say everyone on the ground. They proceed to rob the bank and all the want is the money and no one's life is in danger. You have your weapon on you, you have to decide. They have not shot any body and there is no one pointing a weapon at you. In my eyes, my life is not in danger. I would just stay on the ground and just observe and try and take cover if I can. Do you draw and start shooting at them is the question? Now just say you draw your weapon and then they start shooting people, now you just made things escalate to a different level. They had no intentions of shooting anyone!!!! You may hold a CCW but you are not a police officer and the rules are different for a CCW holder and a police officer. Remember the banks money is insured, never do you put your life or somebody's else's life on the line.
Another example would be you shot someone and it was a legal shooting. You made the decision and you killed someone. Now people are slashing your tires on your cars, threats are being made at you and your family. Phone calls at all hours, so you call the police and they say they cannot do anything. You are not sure who it is and now your whole life has been turned up side down. You have wife and kids and a great job. Now you have to relocate and start all over again. If you ended up looking over your shoulder and living in fear everyday, the question is was it worth the decision you made, now your whole life is turned into hell. Always think about your Love ones and Self preservation at all times!!!!!!!! It does not mean you are not a MAN or A Woman because you choose not to draw and kill someone. Emotions can get you hurt or killed, all I can say is contact a lawyer.
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Most times the best course of action is to retreat if possible. The CCW that was killed made a hasty and incorrect evaluation of the situation. But his intent was good. But as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If it was me I retreat and at most continue to observe as the situation develops.
That being said if I see someone get shot or if I think someone is going to be shot. I don't know if I could live with myself if I was able to prevent it and did not. Its a hard choice and it should be, pulling the trigger should not be your first reaction, unless there is no other way.
To say you know how you will react is silly for most to say. I would think you will never understand how you will react in such a situation until you have been in it.
That being said if I see someone get shot or if I think someone is going to be shot. I don't know if I could live with myself if I was able to prevent it and did not. Its a hard choice and it should be, pulling the trigger should not be your first reaction, unless there is no other way.
To say you know how you will react is silly for most to say. I would think you will never understand how you will react in such a situation until you have been in it.
Don't know if this has been posted or if anyone has read this article, but I think it is a good read for anyone:
It's Really Hard to Be a Good Guy With a Gun
It's Really Hard to Be a Good Guy With a Gun
We had a local county sheriff come in when I took my course a little over a year ago and he could not stress enough that it almost always ends poorly if a civilian tries to take a cop's duties into their own hands. Often they become a victim instead like the CCW holder in this case, or it is entirely possible that they take the life of the wrong person as stated above.
We had a eye-opening exercise to finish off our time on the range. My instructor appointed me the shooter and my brother-in-law the runner. He instructed my brother-in-law to put one hand on my shoulder and the other held a bag of sand. As soon as his hand left my shoulder I was to raise my gun from the hip and fire two shots as close to center on a 15 ft target as I could, meanwhile he would be running the opposite direction as fast as he could. Upon my first shot he dropped the bag of sand, and on the second shot he stopped (disclaimer, I can shoot accurately but by no means am I even close to the fastest at draw; average maybe). To my surprise when I turned around the bag of sand was about 20 feet behind me and he was about 30! In the time it took me to draw my gun (fortunately pre loaded) and fire two shots close to center on a 15 foot target, he had already surpassed that distance.
My instructor did this to show two things. 1) To show how fast someone can close on you if they are armed with a knife, bat, etc. 2) To show how fast you can flee a situation.
I imagine we have all had our thoughts about being the hero in a situation: you're sitting in the back of church and a shooter comes in and you are able to stop them by sneaking off a shot before they are able...or you see someone pull a shotgun out of their trunk in a school parking lot and you happen to have your latest custom bolt rig in your trunk and can take that shot.
He summed his whole argument up by basically saying "defend your own life and stop the threat if necessary, but leave the police duties to the police".
I followed his summary by saying "What if you see an armed robber holding a gun up to your wife? What do you do then?"
"Those are the decisions that nobody wants to be forced to make, but if you are in a situation like that then you MUST be able to make that decision one way or another without hesitation. Often there is no way to know you made the right choice if you chose to take their life, even if it felt justified at the time."
I have no right answers and although I carry, I would rather never have to make the decision to end another's life, no matter how low or crappy it is.
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This is just my opinion so take it what is worth, and I may look at it different since I am in Law Enforcement, but if I had an opportunity to stop a deadly situation, I would, No Question.
You can sit back and say its just a robbery, they just want the money. Or its just a guy walking around wal mart with a gun ordering everybody out of the store. But lets say you don't act and you see someone lose their life. How do you deal with that afterward, considering you may have had a chance to stop the situation?
This may be completely unrelated but its similar to where this whole thread is going. WHAT WOULD YOU DO
Lets look at September 11. The one flight where people stood up and made the decision to do something lost their lives but look at all the lives they saved. (the plane going for washington went down before reaching the target, while all the other planes hit their targets while the passengers took the stance that a lot of people on here are recommending you take...do nothing)
Sit back and wait for law enforcement to arrive. I can assure you we can't be everywhere all the time. And yes we may be on the way but that 2 minutes is going to feel like an eternity.
Do what you are comfortable doing and please understand what you are about to do. You will only have split seconds to make your decision and you will have to live with it the rest of your life.
I guess thats the only good thing about threads like this......Its make you start thinking before hand.
I guess most people just want to carry for one reason....PERSONAL PROTECTION or to protect their family and thats perfectly fine.
Lawsuits and media will break you down after you are involved in a shooting. If I KNOW that I am right in a situation, then thats all it takes in my eyes.
Life is all about choices.
We could do the "WHAT IF" thing all day, but it all comes down to one thing. When you take it to the level of deadly force a whole different can of worms get opened.
There is no such thing as a "good samaritan law" that covers you if you accidentally shoot an innocent person standing in the background behind the bad guy that you never saw because you have tunnel vision and never even saw anything but the bad guy and his gun.
There are pros and cons of both sides of the argument. Should he have confronted him or not? Thats up to the indivdual to decide.
You can sit back and say its just a robbery, they just want the money. Or its just a guy walking around wal mart with a gun ordering everybody out of the store. But lets say you don't act and you see someone lose their life. How do you deal with that afterward, considering you may have had a chance to stop the situation?
This may be completely unrelated but its similar to where this whole thread is going. WHAT WOULD YOU DO
Lets look at September 11. The one flight where people stood up and made the decision to do something lost their lives but look at all the lives they saved. (the plane going for washington went down before reaching the target, while all the other planes hit their targets while the passengers took the stance that a lot of people on here are recommending you take...do nothing)
Sit back and wait for law enforcement to arrive. I can assure you we can't be everywhere all the time. And yes we may be on the way but that 2 minutes is going to feel like an eternity.
Do what you are comfortable doing and please understand what you are about to do. You will only have split seconds to make your decision and you will have to live with it the rest of your life.
I guess thats the only good thing about threads like this......Its make you start thinking before hand.
I guess most people just want to carry for one reason....PERSONAL PROTECTION or to protect their family and thats perfectly fine.
Lawsuits and media will break you down after you are involved in a shooting. If I KNOW that I am right in a situation, then thats all it takes in my eyes.
Life is all about choices.
We could do the "WHAT IF" thing all day, but it all comes down to one thing. When you take it to the level of deadly force a whole different can of worms get opened.
There is no such thing as a "good samaritan law" that covers you if you accidentally shoot an innocent person standing in the background behind the bad guy that you never saw because you have tunnel vision and never even saw anything but the bad guy and his gun.
There are pros and cons of both sides of the argument. Should he have confronted him or not? Thats up to the indivdual to decide.
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A good CCW course covers plenty of good information to help people understand a lot of things they never thought about.
21 feet is your safe zone
Just because you shoot someone, doesn't mean they are going to stop
Heaven forbid, if you ever have to shoot I can just about guarantee you that you will not be aiming. Both eyes will be open and you will be pointing and shooting. People should really learn to shoot with both eyes open.
Tunnel vision is a bitch.
Your heart rate will be elevated and you will lose all function of fine motor skills.
You can shoot at paper all day long but when the time comes to use it on a person you will experience something like never before.
I hope none of you are ever faced with the decision to take action or not.
21 feet is your safe zone
Just because you shoot someone, doesn't mean they are going to stop
Heaven forbid, if you ever have to shoot I can just about guarantee you that you will not be aiming. Both eyes will be open and you will be pointing and shooting. People should really learn to shoot with both eyes open.
Tunnel vision is a bitch.
Your heart rate will be elevated and you will lose all function of fine motor skills.
You can shoot at paper all day long but when the time comes to use it on a person you will experience something like never before.
I hope none of you are ever faced with the decision to take action or not.
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Completely uncalled for.
Not really sure what is more offensive - your callousness, your lack of understanding of what a 'patriot' and a 'pig' are, the relevance to 2A, or your supposition about members of this board.
BTW - and completely in step with your demonstrable intelligence - Friend...Even if you will make mischief itself in trousers - it not interestingly me… - is grammatically incorrect.
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My understanding is both cops were refilling their drinks at the soda machine. Both were shot, one cop got a round off on bad guy, wounding him.
As far as CCW holder, most everyone in Vegas carries if they legally can. Many carry anyway.
The Four Elements of Deadly Force.
1-Opportunity-Does bad guy have the chance to hurt me?
2-Ability-Does he have the ability to hurt me?
3-Preclusion-Do I have any other options besides Deadly Force?
4-Imminent Danger-If I don't act, will I be harmed?
Something to think about before completely altering the course of your life with the decision to use deadly force.
My wife used to give me hell about carrying in Vegas, as we lived in a "Good Neighborhood". Our pet sitter, a very small, petite white lady went to the local Kinkos on night. A man came in an robbed it at gunpoint, aiming the gun at her head to motivate the manager. After that, my wife understood how the world is not Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. Bad people are everywhere, and if you look like food, your going to get eaten.
As far as Sundays shooting, I wasn't there, so I can't comment on mindset of CCW holder, etc. but my partner at work knew Officer Allen Beck. He was his Defensive Tactics Instructor, and a great guy. He was very tactically minded, and my partner was shocked at how this could of happened. Unfortunately it did, and we can all learn from it.
You are responsible for your own safety and that of your family. Anything else is a gamble, and will most likely get messy. Unless a shooter is engaging innocent people directly and lives are in imminent jeopardy, then it is a legal minefield.
Be careful and get the best training you can. CCW does not make you bulletproof, or right, Just able to even the playing field.
As far as CCW holder, most everyone in Vegas carries if they legally can. Many carry anyway.
The Four Elements of Deadly Force.
1-Opportunity-Does bad guy have the chance to hurt me?
2-Ability-Does he have the ability to hurt me?
3-Preclusion-Do I have any other options besides Deadly Force?
4-Imminent Danger-If I don't act, will I be harmed?
Something to think about before completely altering the course of your life with the decision to use deadly force.
My wife used to give me hell about carrying in Vegas, as we lived in a "Good Neighborhood". Our pet sitter, a very small, petite white lady went to the local Kinkos on night. A man came in an robbed it at gunpoint, aiming the gun at her head to motivate the manager. After that, my wife understood how the world is not Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. Bad people are everywhere, and if you look like food, your going to get eaten.
As far as Sundays shooting, I wasn't there, so I can't comment on mindset of CCW holder, etc. but my partner at work knew Officer Allen Beck. He was his Defensive Tactics Instructor, and a great guy. He was very tactically minded, and my partner was shocked at how this could of happened. Unfortunately it did, and we can all learn from it.
You are responsible for your own safety and that of your family. Anything else is a gamble, and will most likely get messy. Unless a shooter is engaging innocent people directly and lives are in imminent jeopardy, then it is a legal minefield.
Be careful and get the best training you can. CCW does not make you bulletproof, or right, Just able to even the playing field.
MH,
You only have to peruse the many cop bashing threads on this site to get the gist of my statement.
Yes, there are several folks on here, through their own words, have demonstrated that they would relish the thought of police officers killed in the line of duty.
Usually, these cop bashing threads revolve around the open carry crowd baiting the local LE into confrontations. About how those folks are only exercising their 2nd amendment rights and the pigs have no reason to stop them and ask questions. (They frequently use the term pig, gestapo etc...) The threads are, of course, sometimes a result of questionable use of force.
FYI, My sig line is a quote from another thread here on the hide. A member from a European country was seeking information, folks started bashing him about his english whithout even looking at his location, which was filled in (Poland, if memory serves). His response to one person came out thusly. I thought it amusing and made it my sig line.
Are you hitting on him?
Hahaha. I am not from the disco generation, that's not a valid pickup line anymore.
Okay. Are you willing to admit there are some serious problems these days in the law enforcement community? I am not a "death to pigs" Guy, I am just really fed up with the new police mentality of "shoot everything".
This entire situation shows why cops may be a bit quick to shoot. I am not justifying it, just trying to understand it. To some that uniform is a target. Wearing a target would tend to make one prone to be cautious..
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-citizens-killed-cops-remains-unchanged.shtml
If you make the public see you as the enemy, you will be treated as an enemy. I know I never feel protected or served when I see a cop, just paranoid and fearful.
Gunman in Las Vegas rampage was killed by police - CNN.comCNN said:
The fact that sometimes the police can be a little quick to shoot is a risk that a CCW holder assumes when he draws his weapon. I pointed this out in the thread about the shoot out with the Boston Bombers.
So i got two parts of this conversation to respond to. First is for those armchair QBs judging the officers situational awareness. You can have your back against a wall, every civillian in sight, know where all the exits are and still end up dead with your gun still holstered. The couple that shot them may look like a "fits the description" pair, but sadly this is how a large portion of this states population looks.
Second, the comment fdkay made. Yes, tasteless and somewhat uncalled for, but not surprised since in past discussions there have been members, some still active here, who have shown that exact sentiment. Yes you can say he was trying to stir the pot, but there is no denial that there are members here that, no doubt, look up to the shooters as hero's.
Second, the comment fdkay made. Yes, tasteless and somewhat uncalled for, but not surprised since in past discussions there have been members, some still active here, who have shown that exact sentiment. Yes you can say he was trying to stir the pot, but there is no denial that there are members here that, no doubt, look up to the shooters as hero's.
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