Gunsmithing Cerakote Pros: Do you bake Optics?

[TheHorta]

I did what I usually do and “Field of Dreams’d” this thing. Went and bought a 200-gallon 3-phase 10HP compressor, filtration system, drying system, about $10K in Cerakote equipment, tidbits as well as GALLONS of H, E, C and Supergrip coatings, plus a big 7-foot PID-controlled triple oven that I could slow-roast 3 whole cows in simultaneously, as well as a nice parts bath system and Skat Blast setup.

Now we need to learn how to use it all. We’re hoping / planning to do the Certified Applicator training next month, but until then…

Do you bake your optics using 150° @ 3-hours? I assume no one bakes their Tangent Thetas at 250° for 2 hours…

Are most high-end optics/scopes, including Aimpoints and EOTechs, OK with being lightly browned at 150 for 3 hours?

Or do you just use C-series and let air cure for 5 days?

We’d like to offer coating in HIR for everything, including glass — but not sure that’s possible.

 

[Chris W.]

I had a a RDS coated and was concerned about the temp. The smith said that he does the lower temp cure at 4 hours. The optic should handle it fine. In a hot summers day the trunk of a car can reach 150 pretty easily. I imagine the same would hold true for Tangent Theta's but I'm not volunteering to test it.

 

[TheHorta]

I had a a RDS coated and was concerned about the temp. The smith said that he does the lower temp cure at 4 hours. The optic should handle it fine. In a hot summers day the trunk of a car can reach 150 pretty easily. I imagine the same would hold true for Tangent Theta's but I'm not volunteering to test it.

Yeah, that’s what we’re thinking. Also may are made for austere environments, like direct sunlight for 8 hours in the desert, which would seem to hit or exceed 150.

But wanna head what the longtime CeraBros think as well.

 

[db2000]

Good for you. I love it. That’s definitely all in on some coating. I have nothing positive to add but “hope it does well” since I’ve never been involved in the process.

 

[LRRPF52]

The concerns are the epoxied elements getting gooey, and also losing the Nitrogen purge/seals.

Lenses and retaining rings are epoxied in-place to prevent dislodging of critical components under recoil and other shock inputs.

Safe bet is Air cure, but scope manufacturers can tell you what temp and time limits are ok for theirs.

The ocular piece on one of my 1-4x LPVOs came loose, but I’m not sure if it was due to poor quality or the Cerakote. I went light on it for temp and it came loose under fire in a high-volume CQM course shooting 5.56 with an excessive gas port size.

I broke at least 3 of those scopes though, as they were a known Korean-made scope that had durability issues on gas guns. I just love that reticle so much that I kept rolling the dice, even though I was warned that they break regularly.

 

[TheHorta]

I won’t say who, but an LGS here baked one of my VO Gen3 1-10x at 250° done in H265 and it was fubar’d the moment I got it back. Captain Moron said “Well… you said H265, and we cure H265 at 250 for 2 hours, so… your fault, brah.”

I wasn’t the first fubar from these dudes. There are a lot of pissed dudes around here, but lack of options, which is why I’m going the 07/SOT route as I type.

 

[LRRPF52]

I won’t say who, but an LGS here baked one of my VO Gen3 1-10x at 250° done in H265 and it was fubar’d the moment I got it back. Captain Moron said “Well… you said H265, and we cure H265 at 250 for 2 hours, so… your fault, brah.”

I wasn’t the first fubar from these dudes. There are a lot of pissed dudes around here, but lack of options, which is why I’m going the 07/SOT route as I type.

Did the image quality....suffer?

 

[JC0352]

Interesting thread! I would’ve assumed everyone that cerakoted optics used the air cure cerakote.

 

[Terry Cross]

about $10K in Cerakote equipment, tidbits as well as GALLONS of H, E, C and Supergrip coatings,

Even with fairly controlled storage conditions, all series of Cerakote have a fairly limited shelf life.
Be careful trying to have large volumes on hand trying to anticipate usage. I know it is considerably less expensive per ounce to order the bigger bottles but it isn't a bargain when you have to throw it out or have to strip and recoat a project because the product is degraded.

plus a big 7-foot PID-controlled triple oven that I could slow-roast 3 whole cows in simultaneously,......

We’d like to offer coating in HIR for everything, including glass — but not sure that’s possible.

If you are going to run any jobs that are more critical on the temp range, do not trust the PID and sensors to be accurate.

I would suggest that you dry run your oven through several curing cycles and closely monitor the internal temp in different regions of the oven as well as the heat variations different parts can produce based on mass and even color. Even with a circulating fan, most ovens will have variations in the temp from one zone to another.

I purchased a couple of internal oven thermometers to hang in my heat cure oven to help monitor actual as well as using a laser style digital thermometer to spot check parts hanging in the oven.

For the bulk of standard aluminum and steel parts, the temp will not be super critical but with optics and composite/laminate/plastics, a little too much outside the high side of your intended setting could poison the water pretty quick.

 

[TheHorta]

Even with fairly controlled storage conditions, all series of Cerakote have a fairly limited shelf life.
Be careful trying to have large volumes on hand trying to anticipate us. I know it is considerably less expensive per ounce to order the bigger bottles but it isn't a bargain when you have to throw it out or have to strip and recoat a project because the product is degraded.



If you are going to run any jobs that are more critical on the temp range, do not trust the PID and sensors to be accurate.

I would suggest that you dry run your oven through several curing cycles and closely monitor the internal temp in different regions of the oven as well as the heat variations different parts can produce based on mass and even color. Even with a circulating fan, most ovens will have variations in the temp from one zone to another.

I purchased a couple of internal oven thermometers to hang in my heat cure oven to help monitor actual as well as using a laser style digital thermometer to spot check parts hanging in the oven.

For the bulk of standard aluminum and steel parts, the temp will not be super critical but with optics and composite/laminate/plastics, a little too much outside the high side of your intended setting could poison the water pretty quick.

Eggsellant info. Will do just that.

We’ve been coating everything I own in different types — H, E, C, HIR, etc — to get a feel for the whole process. Probably run thru >10 gallons already between colors/types. Made bunches of mistakes at every step, but learned tons. Now I think we’ve gotten as far as we can on our own and need to go to skewl and learn from the “BTDT” folk like yourself.

 

[The Knuckle]

Yeah bake them at 150 for 3 hrs. To see if it needs more time, check a hidden area with a swab and acetone to see if you pull any color. The problem can be matching colors on something like a receiver baked at 250 but you can control sheen by adding more or less hardener.

 

[LRRPF52]

The best way to apply H Series to a scope is to do it to the bare bones tube and any external components you want colored after they have been anodized, pre-assembly of the erector, lenses, lens modules, and retaining rings. USO used to offer this service.

Anything aircraft-grade aluminum, I want anodized as a case-hardener, so I’m not a fan of blasting off the outer anodize layer, but instead dusting it and degreasing so the pigment and epoxy can purchase better to the surface.

I know Cerakote advocates for totally stripping the surface layer, but you won’t win arguments in that direction when talking corrosion resistance, surface hardness, and some of the inherent strength that a Type III hard coat anodize brings to the alloy.

My plan for an oven was to use an old cylinder water heater to promote even temps, as I hate right angles, corners, and cube-shaped things when it comes to thermodynamics.

I stopped doing Cerakote because I kept getting FDE nose no matter what respirator I used and I got tired of breathing formaldehyde. So I value a good local applicator who is set-up and just pay for the work now. Almost all of my ARs are FDE, besides the Retros.

 

[Glassaholic]

I did what I usually do and “Field of Dreams’d” this thing. Went and bought a 200-gallon 3-phase 10HP compressor, filtration system, drying system, about $10K in Cerakote equipment, tidbits as well as GALLONS of H, E, C and Supergrip coatings, plus a big 7-foot PID-controlled triple oven that I could slow-roast 3 whole cows in simultaneously, as well as a nice parts bath system and Skat Blast setup.

Now we need to learn how to use it all. We’re hoping / planning to do the Certified Applicator training next month, but until then…

Do you bake your optics using 150° @ 3-hours? I assume no one bakes their Tangent Thetas at 250° for 2 hours…

Are most high-end optics/scopes, including Aimpoints and EOTechs, OK with being lightly browned at 150 for 3 hours?

Or do you just use C-series and let air cure for 5 days?

We’d like to offer coating in HIR for everything, including glass — but not sure that’s possible.

Who are "we"? I've always known TheHorta to be a collective of one, but if you are multitude I'd like to know... Glad to know the Hide will have yet another good resource for scope specific Cerakoting. To be honest I'm pretty nervous about sending my optics off to someone for the above reasons, but it sounds like you've already been down that road and are trying to provide a service that will avoid the issues that you've experienced thus far.

 

[TheHorta]

Who are "we"? I've always known TheHorta to be a collective of one, but if you are multitude I'd like to know... Glad to know the Hide will have yet another good resource for scope specific Cerakoting. To be honest I'm pretty nervous about sending my optics off to someone for the above reasons, but it sounds like you've already been down that road and are trying to provide a service that will avoid the issues that you've experienced thus far.

My farm hands are super gun dorks as well, and with the forthcoming 07 they’re stoked about everything — got some Grizzly lathes and mills along with a ridonkulous amount of other gunsmithing stuff, and been doing my own pew toys, since there’s enough there to keep us busy lernin’ for the next 2 years alone.

Figure better to make mistakes and break my own stuff before accepting other folks’ kit. Will be sending them off to HK/KAC/Sig certified armorer courses too on top of CK applicator stuff.

I like to do things right, especially if there’s a reputation on the line.

Plus I’ll be peeing on everything.

 

[Glassaholic]

My farm hands are super gun dorks as well, and with the forthcoming 07 they’re stoked about everything — got some Grizzly lathes and mills along with a ridonkulous amount of other gunsmithing stuff, and been doing my own pew toys, since there’s enough there to keep us busy lernin’ for the next 2 years alone.

Figure better to make mistakes and break my own stuff before accepting other folks’ kit. Will be sending them off to HK/KAC/Sig certified armorer courses too on top of CK applicator stuff.

I like to do things right, especially if there’s a reputation on the line.

Plus I’ll be peeing on everything.

Nice, can I apply to be one of yer farm hands? You don't pee on them do you? Wait, you pee on everything, well that brings new meaning to the term "coating", will this be called Hortacoating, does it glow in the dark?

Here I am showing off some of my engineyouitty


Okay, not actually me but I did own a John Deere tractor and this does look like something I would have tried

So what are you going to call your outfit, do you have a name yet? Can we start a pool for naming it?

I'll start, how about: Horta's Hot Stuff (though that site might be taken with an 18+ rule...)

 

[TheHorta]

My FFL name / URL will be “PewPalace.com”

Was thinking of calling it “Horta’s Palace of Pew” but that’s a lot to type into a web browser.

So, Pew Palace it is!

 

[Charger442]

what happened to africa? did i miss the change in plans?

 

[TheHorta]

what happened to africa? did i miss the change in plans?

Nope… that’s still a go, but getting this off the ground just before liftoff. Let the kids run it.

 

[Glassaholic]

My FFL name / URL will be “PewPalace.com”

Was thinking of calling it “Horta’s Palace of Pew” but that’s a lot to type into a web browser.

So, Pew Palace it is!

Oh man... Horta's Palace of Poo would have been awesome...

 

[Glassaholic]

Nope… that’s still a go, but getting this off the ground just before liftoff. Let the kids run it.

Glad to hear you're still doing that, I miss the updates and the pics of the kids as you bless them and the community's down there.

 

[Wannashootit]

as well as GALLONS of H, E, C

Well, good luck. I never did high volume- but I stopped buying anything but tester sizes with the exception of a few of the "go to" colors like Graphite Black. Some (like the black) seem to have a longer shelf life, but I've had others that were clogging up the strainer (metallics) at less than a year. I tried an online search trying to remember when the H series was first released but came up empty, I know when I first started using it a decade ago it hadn't been commonly used for all that long- and there were relatively few colors. This made it much easier to "stock" in larger quantities and make the assumption you'd use most of it before it shit the bed.

With something like 150 colors now, in my experience the chances are slim to none (again, outside of the go-to's) that the customer wants something that I've chosen to randomly keep on the shelf- which is why I just order as needed (get it next day) in a tester and split the cost with the customer as the cost of doing business. The Cerakote itself is the cheapest part of the work, it's all labor (esp multicolor stencil jobs)... I used to throw so much out it made me ill.

Never cared for the durability of the air cure, don't use it- and have never had a problem with low and slow with optics. Also, air cure doesn't match the H series precisely- so trying to do a rifle in H and the optic in C doesn't work out well (at least not for me the first two times, and never again).

 

[TheHorta]

Glad to hear you're still doing that, I miss the updates and the pics of the kids as you bless them and the community's down there.

Latest one from about 6 weeks ago at the house we’re building…

 

[TheHorta]

Well, good luck. I never did high volume- but I stopped buying anything but tester sizes with the exception of a few of the "go to" colors like Graphite Black. Some (like the black) seem to have a longer shelf life, but I've had others that were clogging up the strainer (metallics) at less than a year. I tried an online search trying to remember when the H series was first released but came up empty, I know when I first started using it a decade ago it hadn't been commonly used for all that long- and there were relatively few colors. This made it much easier to "stock" in larger quantities and make the assumption you'd use most of it before it shit the bed.

With something like 150 colors now, in my experience the chances are slim to none (again, outside of the go-to's) that the customer wants something that I've chosen to randomly keep on the shelf- which is why I just order as needed (get it next day) in a tester and split the cost with the customer as the cost of doing business. The Cerakote itself is the cheapest part of the work, it's all labor (esp multicolor stencil jobs)... I used to throw so much out it made me ill.

Never cared for the durability of the air cure, don't use it- and have never had a problem with low and slow with optics. Also, air cure doesn't match the H series precisely- so trying to do a rifle in H and the optic in C doesn't work out well (at least not for me the first two times, and never again).

Heck, we’re finding that doing some parts one day and other parts a day or two later, making sure to mix and cure identically, results in slight color variations. It’s like the Color Fairy is an angry drunk and just likes to fak with us.

 

[Wannashootit]

^^^
Yessir. As you say, pay particular attention to your hardener ratio- the more catalyst, the more gloss- and also greater durability.
I used to go minimal ratio for those wanting a very flat, no gloss appearance- but I found that I could scratch the coating much easier than I was willing to accept so I don't go minimum any longer. Since you've got the equipment sizes to handle it, there's a pretty good market for those that choose to pursue it in non-firearm related products. Golf clubs to auto parts...let your imagination run.

 

[M4orturnate]

My FFL name / URL will be “PewPalace.com”

Was thinking of calling it “Horta’s Palace of Pew” but that’s a lot to type into a web browser.

So, Pew Palace it is!

Should call it "The Horta-culture"

 

[TheHorta]

Should call it "The Horta-culture"

Only a few would get that, and about nobody out here — but I like it.

 

[LRRPF52]

Well, good luck. I never did high volume- but I stopped buying anything but tester sizes with the exception of a few of the "go to" colors like Graphite Black. Some (like the black) seem to have a longer shelf life, but I've had others that were clogging up the strainer (metallics) at less than a year. I tried an online search trying to remember when the H series was first released but came up empty, I know when I first started using it a decade ago it hadn't been commonly used for all that long- and there were relatively few colors. This made it much easier to "stock" in larger quantities and make the assumption you'd use most of it before it shit the bed.

With something like 150 colors now, in my experience the chances are slim to none (again, outside of the go-to's) that the customer wants something that I've chosen to randomly keep on the shelf- which is why I just order as needed (get it next day) in a tester and split the cost with the customer as the cost of doing business. The Cerakote itself is the cheapest part of the work, it's all labor (esp multicolor stencil jobs)... I used to throw so much out it made me ill.

Never cared for the durability of the air cure, don't use it- and have never had a problem with low and slow with optics. Also, air cure doesn't match the H series precisely- so trying to do a rifle in H and the optic in C doesn't work out well (at least not for me the first two times, and never again).

Cerakote for firearms began in the mid-2000s. I think my first one was done in 2007. They were just starting to really catch-on at SHOT in 2008 and threaten Duracoat’s market. Duracoat held on for a few years but quickly kinda disappeared.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I won’t say who, but an LGS here baked one of my VO Gen3 1-10x at 250° done in H265 and it was fubar’d the moment I got it back. Captain Moron said “Well… you said H265, and we cure H265 at 250 for 2 hours, so… your fault, brah.”

I wasn’t the first fubar from these dudes. There are a lot of pissed dudes around here, but lack of options, which is why I’m going the 07/SOT route as I type.

I feel you on the "limited option for services, so time to step up" having a similar time here in MD with good gunsmithing, so I'm currently working up to full service capability before I put the final touches on things and can open the 'doors'

Tagging thread with great interest

 

[Wannashootit]

Do you bake your optics using 150° @ 3-hours? I assume no one bakes their Tangent Thetas at 250° for 2 hours…

Are most high-end optics/scopes, including Aimpoints and EOTechs, OK with being lightly browned at 150 for 3 hours?

Cerakote recommends plastics and polymers at 150-180 for two hours, and composites at 150 for two hours- same temp as for flash-curing with stencils. The shop that cured the optic at the same temp as they'd use for steel were completely in the wrong.

I did notice that Cerakote changed their curing times/temp for H series sometime recently- it used to be 250 for 2 hours, or 300 for one hour, now the 300 is only shown for the Elite.