cheap factory ammo vs match grade factory ammo...???

[icallshotgun88]

Hey ya'll...I'm brand new here and this is my first post
I've been into skeet shooting, handguns, and the AR world for a while but my most recent interest has been precision shooting...

My question is, how bad can cheap factory ammo be? (Compared to match grade factory ammo)

For example, if I just buy a cheap white box of brass .308 stuff from Federal, let's just say, how bad can it be compared to super high end factory match grade ammo?
I know most of it depends on the shooter and many other factors, but if all else is the same, how bad can cheap ammo be for accuracy compared to top dollar stuff?
I know certain rifles like certain loads, but on average, how much more accurate is expensive factory match loads vs the cheapest factory loads?

Is it really worth paying higher prices for high quality ammunition if I'll only be getting 1/2" better groupings?
Or will I see a 1 MOA improvement by paying top dollar?
Etc.

AGAIN, I already understand that so many things factor into a rifles accuracy. But all else being the same, how much better can expensive factory match ammo be compared to the cheap stuff?
Is it worth it?
1 MOA? 2 MOA? Etc..

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

savvy GIGU

 

[Tempest 455]

Hey ya'll...I'm brand new here and this is my first post
I've been into skeet shooting, handguns, and the AR world for a while but my most recent interest has been precision shooting...

My question is, how bad can cheap factory ammo be? (Compared to match grade factory ammo)

For example, if I just buy a cheap white box of brass .308 stuff from Federal, let's just say, how bad can it be compared to super high end factory match grade ammo?
I know most of it depends on the shooter and many other factors, but if all else is the same, how bad can cheap ammo be for accuracy compared to top dollar stuff?
I know certain rifles like certain loads, but on average, how much more accurate is expensive factory match loads vs the cheapest factory loads?

Is it really worth paying higher prices for high quality ammunition if I'll only be getting 1/2" better groupings?
Or will I see a 1 MOA improvement by paying top dollar?
Etc.

AGAIN, I already understand that so many things factor into a rifles accuracy. But all else being the same, how much better can expensive factory match ammo be compared to the cheap stuff?
Is it worth it?
1 MOA? 2 MOA? Etc..

Huge difference. The further, the worse it will be.

 

[icallshotgun88]

Huge difference. The further, the worse it will be.

okay, but please define "huge difference".

for example, lets just say with PERFECT match grade ammo I can hit 1/4" grouping at 300 yards...what should I expect with cheap factory ammo? Like a cheap white box of brass federal for example..

should i expect 1/2" groupings? 1"? 3"?

how MUCH worse is cheap factory stuff compared to high end match grade factory stuff?

I know you may not be able to give an exact answer, but a ballpark estimate of how good/bad of groupings you can get from cheap factory ammo is all I'm looking for?

with ALL other things equal, how good can factory ammo be?

under 1 MOA? 2 MOA? etc.?

 

[Black max]

okay, but please define "huge difference".

for example, lets just say with PERFECT match grade ammo I can hit 1/4" grouping at 300 yards...what should I expect with cheap factory ammo? Like a cheap white box of brass federal for example..

should i expect 1/2" groupings? 1"? 3"?

how MUCH worse is cheap factory stuff compared to high end match grade factory stuff?

I know you may not be able to give an exact answer, but a ballpark estimate of how good/bad of groupings you can get from cheap factory ammo is all I'm looking for?

with ALL other things equal, how good can factory ammo be?

under 1 MOA? 2 MOA? etc.?

A good way to find would be to buy a box of each and go shoot them...

 

[19Scout77]

You will not get a good answer here. Those who shoot well enough to quantify a difference to any degree are not stupid enough to shoot cheap ammo out of a precision rifle. Those stupid enough to shoot shitty ammo are unlikely to have the skills necesssary to provide a reliable comparative assessment.

 

[29aholic]

A good way to find would be to buy a box of each and go shoot them...

This, proof is seeing it. You MIGHT be able to get away with top shelf factory ammo vs quality handloads if you don't reload.

 

[Tempest 455]

okay, but please define "huge difference".

for example, lets just say with PERFECT match grade ammo I can hit 1/4" grouping at 300 yards...what should I expect with cheap factory ammo? Like a cheap white box of brass federal for example..

should i expect 1/2" groupings? 1"? 3"?

how MUCH worse is cheap factory stuff compared to high end match grade factory stuff?

I know you may not be able to give an exact answer, but a ballpark estimate of how good/bad of groupings you can get from cheap factory ammo is all I'm looking for?

with ALL other things equal, how good can factory ammo be?

under 1 MOA? 2 MOA? etc.?

Too many variables.

Depends on how bad vs how good the ammo is? How far are you shooting? What the BC of each bullet? The FPS of each? The ES of both? Depends on your rifle? Way too many things to give you a concrete difference.

Cheap crap ammo is going to have a cheap crap bullet. You may not see a "huge" difference at 300 yards, but I can guarantee you will further out. Best example I can give you:

I generally shoot hand loads for precision shooting/matches but just enjoy shooting steel sometimes. I'm not going to waste my hand loads on just shooting steel. I've shot PPU and PMC .308 ammo at steel often at 500 yards. Out of a pretty accurate Savage, it's not 1 MOA ammo at 500 yards. Probably closer to 2 MOA. By comparison, I've shot box Black Hills at that same distance and done .50 MOA groups with same gun.

So IMO, that's a HUGE difference between crap ammo and good box ammo. Even so, I get ES of 30 with Black Hills 175 SMK, compared to mine under 10. So you are better off to learn to hand load if you can.

Hope that gives you a clearer idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[icallshotgun88]

Too many variables.

Depends on how bad vs how good the ammo is? How far are you shooting? What the BC of each bullet? The FPS of each? The ES of both? Depends on your rifle? Way too many things to give you a concrete difference.

Cheap crap ammo is going to have a cheap crap bullet. You may not see a "huge" difference at 300 yards, but I can guarantee you will further out. Best example I can give you:

I generally shoot hand loads for precision shooting/matches but just enjoy shooting steel sometimes. I'm not going to waste my hand loads on just shooting steel. I've shot PPU and PMC .308 ammo at steel often at 500 yards. Out of a pretty accurate Savage, it's not 1 MOA ammo at 500 yards. Probably closer to 2 MOA. By comparison, I've shot box Black Hills at that same distance and done .50 MOA groups with same gun.

So IMO, that's a HUGE difference between crap ammo and good box ammo. Even so, I get ES of 30 with Black Hills 175 SMK, compared to mine under 10. So you are better off to learn to hand load if you can.

Hope that gives you a clearer idea of what I'm talking about.

thanks, this will a little helpful.
I know its a tough question because there are so many variables.
I guess what I'm really trying to decide is if (for a beginning precision shooter like myself) its worth the money to practice with expensive match loads or to get all my fundementals down with cheap stuff?
I know I can practice with anything, but if factory ammo is really THAT bad, then it won't help me learn, because it wont be accurate enough for me to learn from my mistakes...does that make sense?

so i guess my real question is, is cheap factory ammo accurate enough for a beginner like myself to learn from my mistakes?
with super accurate ammo and rifle I can see a pattern with my mistakes then correct them.
but if I'm using cheap ammo that inconsistent then it will be harder for me to identify my mistakes...
make sense?

 

[Roddd]

This hobby isn't cheap. If you want to practice the fundamentals, get a rim fire rifle and shoot 50-100 yards. It will allow you to work on good positioning, trigger control and follow through.

For shooting at long distances, say 300 yards and beyond, I'd recommend shooting match ammo if you don't hand load. The cheap ammo may not be able to handle MOA sized targets at distance. If you decide to shoot the cheap stuff, it may become more expensive in the long run if you have to expend more to hit one target. I hope this helps.

 

[sib1948]

This hobby isn't cheap. If you want to practice the fundamentals, get a rim fire rifle and shoot 50-100 yards. It will allow you to work on good positioning, trigger control and follow through.

For shooting at long distances, say 300 yards and beyond, I'd recommend shooting match ammo if you don't hand load. The cheap ammo may not be able to handle MOA sized targets at distance. If you decide to shoot the cheap stuff, it may become more expensive in the long run if you have to expend more to hit one target. I hope this helps.

Couldn't agree more. Love plinking at 50 & 100 yards with my Savage 22LR. Would recommend for 308 you buy SMK 175 or 168 gr., depending on the distance you plan to shoot. Save your brass and you can use it, if you start reloading or sell it to others who do. Cuts the cost dramatically. Would do much more reading here on the Hide. Many knowledgeable and very helpful members here. Listen and learn and practice, practice, practice.... Have fun and be safe!

 

[damoncali]

I've shot rifles that went from 1MOA to 3+MOA by switching to crappy ammo. There is a major difference, but it will depend on the rifle and ammo as to how big that is exactly.

Bottom line, cheap ammo isn't worth what it costs if you are concerned about accuracy. It makes sense for a beginner learning to shoot off hand, but that's about it. Otherwise, you're just burning money, time and barrels.

 

[Hairball]

Don't get too hung up on the term "match" ammo as I have tried my share of match ammo over the years that was complete crap. Many people shoot cheap pistol ammo for practice and load up the good stuff for daily carry just as many shoot junk .223 or 5.56 but keep the good stuff for other reasons. If you truely want to shoot "percision rifle" then you need to train as you fight so to speak and use the best components you can afford. Just remeber that the closer you want the holes in the paper and the further away the target gets, the more money it takes to get there. Reloading is almost a requirement in this game if you want to get the most out of your equipment. If you have sticker shock with comparing ammo wait until you need to drop your first 3 or 4k on quality glass.

 

[roggom]

Match ammo has no guarantee of accuracy, as mentioned above there are too many variables. More than ammo quality, barrel quality will have more influence.

One example, I have a Tikka which will shoot pretty much anything moa/submoa. Reloads, FGMM, Remmy Green box etc.

I purchased some premium Sako ammo, and the Tikka was not having any of it. Shot close to 2 moa no matter what I did. I took 10 empties and 5 loaded and found that all of them were very close to each other on spec: water capacity, length, weight, and powder COAL of loaded ammo. In theory they should have shot best of all my loads, but the velocity/coal must not be optimum for my rifle.

Best thing is to reload, or try various ammo until you find one that works for you.

 

[fdkay]

I have seen winchester white box shoot surprisingly well.
If you must shoot cheap ammo, try to find something loaded with a good quality bullet like the sierra gameking (there are other's, this one comes to mind)

Other than that, you have two options.
1. Learn to reload, even with the gamekings, you will normally see more consistent accuracy.
2. If you're talking .308, buy the American Eagle 168 grain OTM match ammo (not the 150 load).

Consider this: you spend 12 dollars on cheap ammo and can't group worth a shit, you get frustrated and realize that you just pissed away 12 dollars, or you spend 20 dollars on AE 168 match ammo and you get consistent performance (quality of your groups depends on you and your rifle). I have yet to find a .308 that didn't shoot this load well.

 

[40xs]

Ill try to put this in terms you can associate with; poorly made bulk ammo will sometimes get you 3- 4 moa at 100yds. that's 3-4 inches on paper. compute that out to 1000yds. it's 30-40 inches without the affects of wind,etc. Add to that a slight miscalculation on your hold and you are off the paper. High end factory "match" ammo will usually print 1moa or better, depending on how your barrel likes the ammo. At 1000yds that's 10inches or slightly better (if you read the wind correctly). Keep in mind the 10 ring at 1k is 10 inches. a finely tuned marriage of handloads suited to your barrel will, in most cases get you .05 moa or better. that's right around the size of the X ring, if you read the wind correctly and you marksmanship skills are proper. A good handload suited for match work should give you a standard deviation of no more than 6-9. I know of shooters who are getting 3-5 SD on their loads, phenominal. So, I said all of that to get to this; If you just want to have fun it really does'nt matter. However, if you want to compete, then you know where you stand and you know what your limitations will be. I was at Blackwater this past weekend ( xe ) and now Academi. the wind was normal from about 6-9 mph. and gusting to 12-15 mph. At 1000yds. shooters were all over the paper and some rounds hitting off the target frame. In conditions like that you want every advantage you can bring with you. the best advantage is being able to read the wind.

 

[Chiller]

You will not get a good answer here. Those who shoot well enough to quantify a difference to any degree are not stupid enough to shoot cheap ammo out of a precision rifle. Those stupid enough to shoot shitty ammo are unlikely to have the skills necesssary to provide a reliable comparative assessment.

pretty much sums it up....

 

[Chiller]

if I have a limited time to shoot (which I do).....I will NOT shoot crap

 

[walt willis]

More important then match grade ammo is the match between the resonate frequency of barrel and speed and weight of the round.

You'll need to hand load if you want the very best.

 

[Bill Goff]

Hey ya'll...I'm brand new here and this is my first post
I've been into skeet shooting, handguns, and the AR world for a while but my most recent interest has been precision shooting...

clip

Is it worth it?
1 MOA? 2 MOA? Etc..

As many others here have said, only you can answer the question, "Is it worth it?". You can buy a cheap rifle and ammo and ask yourself the question, Is it worth it? Did you get the precision you wanted? People here go thru the problem all the time. One scope is $500 another is $2400. Is it worth it? Sometimes the comments of others help, but its usually just a statement of how they answered the question for themselves.

Bill

 

[lostcoyote]

More important then match grade ammo is the match between the resonate frequency of barrel and speed and weight of the round.

You'll need to hand load if you want the very best.

exactly.

the chances of "match grade" ammo being matched to your rifle's barrel characteristics is less than oh, say, 1%.
more than likely, FAR less than 1%.
it's like a crap shoot.

 

[FCS]

thanks, this will a little helpful.
I know its a tough question because there are so many variables.
I guess what I'm really trying to decide is if (for a beginning precision shooter like myself) its worth the money to practice with expensive match loads or to get all my fundementals down with cheap stuff?
I know I can practice with anything, but if factory ammo is really THAT bad, then it won't help me learn, because it wont be accurate enough for me to learn from my mistakes...does that make sense?

so i guess my real question is, is cheap factory ammo accurate enough for a beginner like myself to learn from my mistakes?
with super accurate ammo and rifle I can see a pattern with my mistakes then correct them.
but if I'm using cheap ammo that inconsistent then it will be harder for me to identify my mistakes...
make sense?

You'll have to buy some cheap ammo, buy some off the shelf match ammo and buy some custom loaded ammo tuned to your rifle. Only then will you have a complete answer as it pertains to you and your rifle.

How bad can "cheap" ammo be? 2 MOA or 6" at 300 yards. Cheap ammo may well shoot better then that but very possible that it will not, could be worse than 6" too.
How good can ammo tuned to your rifle be? 1/4 MOA or 3/4" at 300 yards but to get that you'll need to be able to read wind well or find a perfectly calm day to shoot.

If the ammo does not shoot on call, then there is no way for you to learn. You'll need to find a lot # of ammo that shoots well from your rifle, then get in as much of that lot# as you can. If you are getting into the LR game, get the best possible ammo you can. Find an off the shelf load that works well from your rifle, buy as much of that lot # as you can. I've seen FGMM vary from 0.5 MOA to 1.5 MOA from same rifle, same day, different lot # when tested at 600 yards.

I have never had any "luck" getting cheap ammo to provide me with needed accuracy / performance to allow for much learning to take place. YMMV

IMHO, false economy to use cheap ammo as you really are not learning anything if ammo / rifle / scope system not capable of delivering consistent sub MOA accuracy, sub 0.5 MOA would be better and is possible.

Shooting isn't a "cheap" hobby, good gear (rifle, ammo, scope, mounts, etc) costs more up front but generally speaking will save you $ in the long run. I've got a 223 that I use to get people hooked on F-class shooting. Known load, rifle, scope and it is not uncommon for a person who has not shot past 2-300 yards to place in top half at their first 600 yard match. Same person goes and buys a rifle, decent glass and some factory ammo only to finish dead last at next match and have dropped 20-30 more points then when using loaner rifle, ammo. I do warn people that this will happen up front as it is a tuned SYSTEM vs. a collection of parts. Loaner rifle is a factory Win 70, 9 twist barrel shooting 75 JLKs to show that a factory rifle with tuned ammo can perform at a pretty high level.

Best wishes on your LR endeavor. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

You get what you pay for.

But, if you handload, you can take the same ammo, pull it down, redevelop the load using those same components, and probably improve on it greatly.

You still won't have match grade ammo, but it likely won't be junk ammo, either.

The cases, if reloadable (and yes, I have reloaded TulAmmo 223 Steel case boxer primed cases successfully), can be used with better primers and bullets, as well as a known-quantity-commercial propellants. to produce ammo that essentially duplicates match grade stuff. For my own part, I have not been an overwhelmingly eager fan of factory match ammo; but rather, I prefer to develop my own load that best matches my own particular barrel.

I would not hesitate to use the original TulAmmo 55gr .223 FMJ ammo in a hard-up-against-it role, but for instances where serious accuracy is demanded, it is well below the par.

Greg

 

[brusky21]

My first precision rig was a Rembinton 700 SPS tactical in 308. It was before I really knew a whole lot about precision rifles, but I did have an excellent grasp on marksmanship. I was shooting factory hornaday Match 168 SMK's and would average between .5-1MOA at 100 yds. I took my dad to the range one day to try it out, and I only had 25 rds of match ammo left, so I picked up some Winchester 147gr white box from walmart. To start the day off, I printed some nice tiny groups at a hundred with the match ammo. I switched over to the Winchester and was shooting 2.5-3" at 100yds. This translates to a shitload of inconsistency at range.

It also depends on caliber. If you get a 6.5 creedmoor, shitty factory ammo doesn't exist (yet)

If you're worried about developing proper marksmanship fundamentals on a budget, I would recommend just getting a bolt action .22 and shoot it at 50-75 yds with somebody that can coach you and provide you with pertinent feedback.

 

[Donald]

I have seem some factory amo shoot well but on an average well made loads will perform the best most of the time.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

As a matter of curiosity, I pulled down 20 Federal M855 cartridges and weighed the charges. Each and every one came out to 27.1gr, which is precisely equivalent to the book.

Greg

 

[aahunt03]

There is a huge difference. Get into reloading and make your own quality ammo. Thats the only thing to do

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I got out and shot on Thursday, and one of the projects was some head to head ammo testing. In one comparison, I tested Fed M855 vs the same cartridges with the projectile swapped for Win 64gr bonded Power Points. This latter combination shot the tightest of all loads that day (one hole), while the 62gr USGI penetrator rounds had extreme horizontal spread (about 2" at 100yd), making it the worst tested that day. While it's obvious that the barrel (24", 1:9) is neither the same length or twist that the M855 was ordained to use, I think it's also a safe bet that the bullets made nearly all of the difference.

Greg

 

[silentheart]

Just want to chime in and confuse OP even more. Your rifle also plays a factor here. A good rifle can make a cheaper ammo looks good. A bad rifle can make expensive ammo looks bad. Since OP is just new to rifle shooting, here is my suggestion.
Buy 2 boxes of cheaper ammo (WWB if you like) and practice your aim and fundamentals. Get to know your rifle.
After you get to know your rifle and get a good grip of shooting it and you feel you can get a consistent grouping and can not get it smaller, Then move on to 2 boxes ammo that is 1.5x more expensive. If that makes the difference. Then go to Blackhill or Horandy custom to see the major difference.