Cheap vs Expensive ammo question
- Thread starter SNK
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Well, Hornady was doing really well for awhile, then when ammo started running scarce, they started suffering from issues with their quality control.
Commercial Hornady got sorta crappier, and TAP (police) remained better.
These are both 147gr 6.5 ELDMs:
You'll note that the SD is way different between the two. With my handloads, an SD of 10 is very good. Factory ammo at <15 isn't bad.
If we look at Hornady, we see a difference between the older and newer commercial ammo:
But let’s take a look at a bunch of others:
The 10 shots in that target -> That is a 22lr target sheet, 50 yard, benchrest target (shot from a bi-pod, prone, at,100 yards). The group is the size of a nickel, and the 142 SMK didn't have the very best SD, but it shot very well.
Then there is the SD difference between LRP and SRP:
So what does this really mean to you? The larger the SD and the larger the ES, the more variation you will see at distance. 50-100FPS will result is a significant issue hitting targets consistently out past 600 yards.
The chronograph becomes important when you’re trying to set up a ballistic calculator, so that you know what your holdovers should be, as you start shooting further out:
For the record: I should state that any of the Chrono data up above that isn’t a 20 round lot is probably incomplete data. You’re really want a larger sample and 20 rounds is a good start; 50 rounds would be much better. That being said, of the ammo up above, I actually have shot all of that to larger sample sizes and what you’re seeing on the Chrono is generally accurate, even when the sample size is larger. (… I just didn’t feel like trying to find my lab radar data.)
Commercial Hornady got sorta crappier, and TAP (police) remained better.
These are both 147gr 6.5 ELDMs:
You'll note that the SD is way different between the two. With my handloads, an SD of 10 is very good. Factory ammo at <15 isn't bad.
If we look at Hornady, we see a difference between the older and newer commercial ammo:
But let’s take a look at a bunch of others:
The 10 shots in that target -> That is a 22lr target sheet, 50 yard, benchrest target (shot from a bi-pod, prone, at,100 yards). The group is the size of a nickel, and the 142 SMK didn't have the very best SD, but it shot very well.
Then there is the SD difference between LRP and SRP:
So what does this really mean to you? The larger the SD and the larger the ES, the more variation you will see at distance. 50-100FPS will result is a significant issue hitting targets consistently out past 600 yards.
The chronograph becomes important when you’re trying to set up a ballistic calculator, so that you know what your holdovers should be, as you start shooting further out:
For the record: I should state that any of the Chrono data up above that isn’t a 20 round lot is probably incomplete data. You’re really want a larger sample and 20 rounds is a good start; 50 rounds would be much better. That being said, of the ammo up above, I actually have shot all of that to larger sample sizes and what you’re seeing on the Chrono is generally accurate, even when the sample size is larger. (… I just didn’t feel like trying to find my lab radar data.)
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I want to thank the academy…. and @lowlight for teaching me how to set up my kestrel and Garmin tactixs properly.
Suppose that were a professional with that weapon no reloading equipment or skills. Since your are a professional, you know how to shoot so group-size limits are set by the equipment and the ammo. You are a pro and you have good equipment so your limit is ammo. As a general statement, expensive ammo shoots smaller groups than cheap ammo. As another general statement, not all cheap ammo shoots the same - some will be better than others. Same for expensive ammo - some will be better than others.
If you are shooting expensive ammo and you are getting 4+1 groups (4 in a little hole plus one flyer) that flyer is probably you - expensive ammo tends to be consistent. Or it might be that is not the right ammo for your rifle - maybe bullets too light for your twist. If you are shooting less expensive ammo and getting 4+1 groups, it might be you or it might be the ammo - cheap ammo is less consistent. Suppose you buy a box of each and shoot four groups with each box. Can you can tell the difference between the expensive-ammo groups and the cheap-ammo groups?
You said, "... since i'm no pro ...". Can you shoot well enough to tell the difference between the good stuff and the not-so-good stuff? If you can, then maybe you do shoot like a pro. If you can't then maybe your first step should be professional training. A great gun won't fix bad habits. Your friends may not provide the best coaching - my friends don't. People need good advice to understand their problems, know how to recognize them, and develop training techniques to fix them. Some people are born good - not me, I paid for training and got a lot out of it.
Unless you have unusually strong mental discipline, crappy ammo makes you suspect your rifle and your shooting when they are not the problem. If I shoot the cheap stuff, I don't know if I missed because I failed fundamentals or because of crappy ammo. I would want to shoot the good stuff so that targets would tell me when I screwed up. My opinion, I don't need those suspicions when I am training for skills - shoot the best you can afford and accept responsibility for skills.
Re: different ammo shoots different. Guns have personalities, you have to try stuff and see what works. The point of reloading is to find that magic combination and then make it when you need it - and, by the way, save about two thirds on the cost of ammo.
OP you don't have to buy expensive ammo. But you should make every effor to buy good quality ammo.
IMHO the minimum quality in 6,5 projectiles is the Hornady 140 BTHP. Another decent rounds is 140 SMK. These are both older designs that are available in non-premium match ammo loadings.
Factory ammo is one size fits all.
Handloaded ammo is a custom suit.
Sure, you might find a custom fit off the rack, but if you’re serious about it, you’ll roll your own, eventually.
And custom almost always fits better.
P
Handloaded ammo is a custom suit.
Sure, you might find a custom fit off the rack, but if you’re serious about it, you’ll roll your own, eventually.
And custom almost always fits better.
P
Even if I was a billionaire I would not quit loading ammunition.
shooting factory ammunition in ANY precision rifle is a complete joke.
I’m hitting targets at 1000Y without any issues, and Berger factory ammo ain’t bad…
I will say that it’s interesting the ammo tends to have two node for an accurate round, and most factory ammo is setup for the lower speed (aka first node). It does appear that to get the higher velocity node, you have to reload.
I will say that it’s interesting the ammo tends to have two node for an accurate round, and most factory ammo is setup for the lower speed (aka first node). It does appear that to get the higher velocity node, you have to reload.
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just putting a bunch of info in one spot:
spend your reloading set up money on professional training, not just videos...there's a world of difference
all joking aside 9 of 10 people cant reload worth a shit and cannot beat federal gold medal never mind the more expensive stuff
anyone who says they shoot ".5 or better all day" is lying, some guys will chime in but they are the exception not the norm
have them show the last 20-5 shot groups, a single 50 or 100 shot group and we'll see who wins the bet
anyone who says they shoot .25 or better off a bipod and bags is lying as if they did they would be shooting BR as the year aggs are .15-.2 in purpose built BR rigs, gear and custom bullets
if money isnt a huge concern and or you really dont have the time/ you might rush a little, stick to factory youll be happier
reloading is a part time job and a rabbit hole of process and $, some guys love it more than shooting
for decades people have been shooting factory 308 175 SMK at 1000 and hitting 10" plates like clock work, that didnt just stop happening...you dont need crazy special ammo to do that
learn how to read the environmentals/ wind thats what counts, people have placed very high and won PRS matches with factory ammo
if your wind range skill is 5-10MPH and the other guy can bracket 6-8MPH...he'll beat your custom ammo every day with factory stuff
not saying dont reload as there is a difference, but if your not a student of reloading and dont have the fundamental skills or gear to exploit it your most likely wasting your time in the beginning.
burn your first barrel with factory then see what you really like and really need
focus on getting better, you might not even like the caliber at the end of the day
spend your reloading set up money on professional training, not just videos...there's a world of difference
all joking aside 9 of 10 people cant reload worth a shit and cannot beat federal gold medal never mind the more expensive stuff
anyone who says they shoot ".5 or better all day" is lying, some guys will chime in but they are the exception not the norm
have them show the last 20-5 shot groups, a single 50 or 100 shot group and we'll see who wins the bet
anyone who says they shoot .25 or better off a bipod and bags is lying as if they did they would be shooting BR as the year aggs are .15-.2 in purpose built BR rigs, gear and custom bullets
if money isnt a huge concern and or you really dont have the time/ you might rush a little, stick to factory youll be happier
reloading is a part time job and a rabbit hole of process and $, some guys love it more than shooting
for decades people have been shooting factory 308 175 SMK at 1000 and hitting 10" plates like clock work, that didnt just stop happening...you dont need crazy special ammo to do that
learn how to read the environmentals/ wind thats what counts, people have placed very high and won PRS matches with factory ammo
if your wind range skill is 5-10MPH and the other guy can bracket 6-8MPH...he'll beat your custom ammo every day with factory stuff
not saying dont reload as there is a difference, but if your not a student of reloading and dont have the fundamental skills or gear to exploit it your most likely wasting your time in the beginning.
burn your first barrel with factory then see what you really like and really need
focus on getting better, you might not even like the caliber at the end of the day
Meh my prime is 3151 out of a 6cm. Accurate -AF too.
Yep, we both shot factory at the Frank/Marc clinic in PA...I think you with Hornady ELD-M 147's and me with Berger 140 HT and we had zero issue with getting accurate dope and making first round hits at range. I believe we both got first round hits shooting from the platform at a 12" x 12" piece of steel at 1040 yards.
Frankly, I reload just as another interesting aspect of this hobby to occupy my retired time and...well, to just try to make the most consistent ammo I can as sort of a challenge.
Cheers
You talking to your phone, again? haha I'm pretty sure that the Marquette shooting team wasn't up there with us! haha
Well, really I reload because my good friend @GBMaryland gave me his Big Boss II press when he got his Zero press. Then causing me to spend thousands upon thousands to get the rest of the shit and now I reload because I'm buried in all this reloading stuff and I'm trying to justify it!!!
But more seriously, we didn't have any issues shooting factory up there including at the smaller swingers. I never once felt I was being held back by shooting factory.
Cheers
Prime is not that hot out of my proof barrels or my Bartlines… it is pretty accurate though.
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That’s some pretty nice Chrono data!
I’m really not sure you can load better than that per se; that the amount of effort necessary to reload your own is worth it, unless you’re saving a lot of money, given those results.
I’m really not sure you can load better than that per se; that the amount of effort necessary to reload your own is worth it, unless you’re saving a lot of money, given those results.
Thanks, I’ve been pretty pleased with shooting factory match. I mean, I don’t know any better, haha. Never have shot good handloads. I guess I’m just not there yet, to want to get into hand loading.
I was stoked to shoot this 5shot group with Norma 6cm 107gr at 556y, and what’s crazy is it’s barely over $1 per round currently!
oh, you wimp....you edited out "Marquette" and replaced it with Mark...by the by, its Marc, I believe! haha
As long as it comes with your AMP annealer, I'll take it! haha
I keep telling you to quit talking to your damn phone! haha Oh, by the by...its "Bartlein" and not "Bartlines" LOL You sure you're not still sick?
Dang....now, I'm shooting 6.5 Manbun and with Prime with (need to check to be sure) 142 SMK's. I'm getting 2755 out of a Proof SS barrel that is pretty dang fast compared to others. 3151 fps is low level supersonic flying, brother.
