So, I'm looking for an affordable scope that will be good for up to 300 yard precision work and possible 3 gun matches. I've been looking at the Vortex PST 1-4, the Burris MTAC, the SWFA, and the Trij TR24-3G. Now, I'm on a budget ($500 TOPS) too . Which would you estimate as being the best "all around" (I know there will be some compromises)? FWIW the tr24 is used, and I'm not opposed to something used provided it's in good shape.
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Rifle Scopes Choice for precision AND 3 gun......on a budget?
- Thread starter RichS
- Start date
Vortex PST 1-4 MRAD all day long . Not saying 4x will deliver "precision", but this scope would allow you the speed necessary for the majority of all 3 gun stages typically encountered along with a fine enough reticle for accurate shot placement at 300.
Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 Illuminated - TMCQ MRAD Reticle - Milradian Turrets - 30mm Tube PST-14ST-M
TP...
Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 Illuminated - TMCQ MRAD Reticle - Milradian Turrets - 30mm Tube PST-14ST-M
TP...
If you expand your budget slightly and if your max range is 300y then I recommend : a combination 2.5-10 with a holdover reticle and a mini red dot mounted on a 45 degree offset . This will give you real "precision" to whatever distance you may come across and the speed of a red dot zeroed for close range. Just be aware that 2 optics usually places you into a different class in many 3 gun events. But many informal local events usually don't harp on this rule.
Burris 1x FastFire II Red-Dot Reflex Sight
Vortex 2.5-10x44 Viper HS 30mm Rifle Scope
TP...
Burris 1x FastFire II Red-Dot Reflex Sight
Vortex 2.5-10x44 Viper HS 30mm Rifle Scope
TP...
Another option if you choose to go the 2.5-10 range is to just run a set of 45 degree iron sights like the ones from Dueck Defense : RTS Offset Gun Sight for Military & LE Tactical And 3 Gun Competition Gun Sight System. This will keep you from being bumped into the "Open" division, while still allowing you to have a quick short range sighting system. The Vortex 2.5-10 is a fantastic scope I need to add.
I've used the 1-4 mrad vortex in 3 gun and I've engaged targets out to 300 with it. Can also shoot fairly precise with it @ 100 yds if you take your time. The center dot on the MRAD reticle covers the center dot on a shoot-n-c target @ 100 yds.
You can get a brand new one and still come in under your budget.
You can get a brand new one and still come in under your budget.
(Apologize in advance for thread jack)
How bad would running a 2.5-10 by the lonesome really be? The only reason I ask is my unit went through CQB/AUC school with just our acogs and a lot of the targets were 5-10ft away. Manipulating the bdc for that close of range seemed more difficult than acquiring the target with the permanent 4x.
With that being said does the 2.5x really make a noticeable impact during 3gun? I'm not questioning from doubt, rather curiosity. I'm hoping to build an 18" spr/3gun rifle and have been thinking about a 1-8x or 2.5-10x, this way I can muster a little extra precision at farther distances.
How bad would running a 2.5-10 by the lonesome really be? The only reason I ask is my unit went through CQB/AUC school with just our acogs and a lot of the targets were 5-10ft away. Manipulating the bdc for that close of range seemed more difficult than acquiring the target with the permanent 4x.
With that being said does the 2.5x really make a noticeable impact during 3gun? I'm not questioning from doubt, rather curiosity. I'm hoping to build an 18" spr/3gun rifle and have been thinking about a 1-8x or 2.5-10x, this way I can muster a little extra precision at farther distances.
I'm running the 1-4 MTAC on my AR, and like it so far. Kinda wish it was FFP, but don't really miss it because I typically shoot everything at 1x or 4x and nothing in between.
John
John
Bring money for single optic or as stated, offset sight.
Some guys used to use ACOG of some type. I do not know how they did it. I need zero mag.
Irons and have only shot to 235yds. in 3gun.
Some guys used to use ACOG of some type. I do not know how they did it. I need zero mag.
Irons and have only shot to 235yds. in 3gun.
If you are going to use the scope for 3 gun you really need the 1X otherwise you are really putting yourself at a disadvantage. For your "all around" uses I would get the Vortex
Can you elaborate as to what that disadvantage would be? I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how a 2.5x or hell even a 4x (i.e. acog) could have an adverse effect.
This reply begs to going to basics 101
How much experience do you have engaging targets with an AR under the clock? Racking your brain is not a level of understanding.
Iron sight is a good place to start in that game. Buy an optic when you know which and what.
Spending your budget now is not wise.
I personally have the Vortex 1-4 on my 300BLK for basically the same intended purpose. Honestly I would say it depends on which side you want to lean towards.
Would you prefer to have a true 1x and the ability to shoot it essentially like a red-dot type optic, or is 2.5ish acceptable for 'close' work and the extra reach/precision of a 2.5-10x is for favorable.
For my purposes I wish I would have gone with a 2.5-10x range scope, but I do not dislike the Vortex 1-4x. It just makes load development and 'precision' a little more difficult IMO.
Would you prefer to have a true 1x and the ability to shoot it essentially like a red-dot type optic, or is 2.5ish acceptable for 'close' work and the extra reach/precision of a 2.5-10x is for favorable.
For my purposes I wish I would have gone with a 2.5-10x range scope, but I do not dislike the Vortex 1-4x. It just makes load development and 'precision' a little more difficult IMO.
I'm no expert nor do I claim to be, in fact basics and refreshers are always welcome to ensure the building blocks and fundamentals are staying correct and true. However, I feel I have more than adequately grasped the basics enough to progress from iron sights to say the least. I have no experience running an ar for time per say, but as I pointed out when going through the CQB school we were clearing rooms and engaging targets rapidly. While no one was timing it, time was of the essence and speed/violence of action was critical. With that being said I'm trying to figure out how if the 4x played little to no effect in that particular situation w/5-10ft targets, how does it adversely effect it in 3 gun. Again, I'm NOT questioning it claiming to be a know it all...I'm genuinely interested in the disadvantage as I'm considering a 2.5x. Is the time it takes your eyes to adjust and focus on the distortion that noticeable vice picking it up on 1x? I understand the thought process but I'm trying to understand if its that noticeable on the scorecard.
makes sense, I'm just trying to gauge exactly how much of a disadvantage the 2.5x is at and if its at all exaggerated.
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Honestly, it depends on the use IMO. I have never shot 3-gun so I cannot comment on that, for my personal preferences I bought the 1-4x because I WANT to eventually shoot 3-gun but cannot afford it at the moment. The problem for me know is I'd rather have the 2.5-10x in the meantime as a more general purpose scope.
If you are going to start shooting 3-gun soon and that's it's purpose, ask the 3-gun guys (I believe one stated above the 1x is a necessity) and see what they say. If not...well it depends on what you want to do with it lol.
with 3 gun you have targets well within 25 yards, and out to 200, 300, 400, etc yards. if you have a bank of targets at close range, 1x makes it a lot easier to see all of them and not gloss over any by accident.
but then you (or at least me) wants magnification to help see the longer-range targets. so you want low magnification and wide field of view for close targets, and higher magnification for further away targets.
i have and love the trijicon accupoint 1-4x. but the last couple of 3 gun matches i have done have had obscured and shaded targets out to 300yds that for me have been very hard to see at just 4x, so i have been looking at 1-6 (generally expensive due to the wide magnification range) and also 2-7 and 2.5-10. Personally, i think giving up 1x is worth it to get something more than 4x. i just ordered a bushnell elite tactical 1-6x to give it a try.
if you want to do 3 gun and also some longer-range work, then perhaps the 2.5-10 variety will work for you.
but then you (or at least me) wants magnification to help see the longer-range targets. so you want low magnification and wide field of view for close targets, and higher magnification for further away targets.
i have and love the trijicon accupoint 1-4x. but the last couple of 3 gun matches i have done have had obscured and shaded targets out to 300yds that for me have been very hard to see at just 4x, so i have been looking at 1-6 (generally expensive due to the wide magnification range) and also 2-7 and 2.5-10. Personally, i think giving up 1x is worth it to get something more than 4x. i just ordered a bushnell elite tactical 1-6x to give it a try.
if you want to do 3 gun and also some longer-range work, then perhaps the 2.5-10 variety will work for you.
Like everyone above is intimating, you're verging on the edge of 2 applications here.
Your 300y targets for 3 gun are a 10" plate or similar, so it's just over 3 MOA and not really 'precision' as such.
Also think it through; if you're using 4x magnification at that range, it's the same 'optically' as shooting 10" plate at 75y with iron sights... if you're comfortable with doing that then go with the 1-4x. If you're happier with 10" at 50y, then rather look at the 1-6.
The point of using a 1x on the close stages is that it acts as a red-dot type sight, and you keep both eyes open which helps with: fast target acquisition, movement while shooting, and basic stage awareness. It can be done with scopes with higher magnification, but just not as easily (lose targets, focus on the wrong target, get dizzy while walking and shooting, etc). The other thing to look for here is a reticle that is illuminated bright enough and shaped well enough at 1x magnification to act as a red-dot, otherwise you're not getting the best of both worlds.
If you want precision work at 300y, the 2.5-10 suggestions are all sound, and if you want to use the same scope on a 3 Gun stage, the Dueke Defence offset iron sights will work, just know that you'll be using the offsets for a large number of targets on each stage.
Why don't you head on down to your local 3 Gun match and have a chat with the guys. Many of them will help you and let you borrow their equipment... especially if you bring ammo !
Then you can try out the different kit and be able to make better choices that suit your needs... and you'll have a great time doing it.
Your 300y targets for 3 gun are a 10" plate or similar, so it's just over 3 MOA and not really 'precision' as such.
Also think it through; if you're using 4x magnification at that range, it's the same 'optically' as shooting 10" plate at 75y with iron sights... if you're comfortable with doing that then go with the 1-4x. If you're happier with 10" at 50y, then rather look at the 1-6.
The point of using a 1x on the close stages is that it acts as a red-dot type sight, and you keep both eyes open which helps with: fast target acquisition, movement while shooting, and basic stage awareness. It can be done with scopes with higher magnification, but just not as easily (lose targets, focus on the wrong target, get dizzy while walking and shooting, etc). The other thing to look for here is a reticle that is illuminated bright enough and shaped well enough at 1x magnification to act as a red-dot, otherwise you're not getting the best of both worlds.
If you want precision work at 300y, the 2.5-10 suggestions are all sound, and if you want to use the same scope on a 3 Gun stage, the Dueke Defence offset iron sights will work, just know that you'll be using the offsets for a large number of targets on each stage.
Why don't you head on down to your local 3 Gun match and have a chat with the guys. Many of them will help you and let you borrow their equipment... especially if you bring ammo !
Then you can try out the different kit and be able to make better choices that suit your needs... and you'll have a great time doing it.
For a few extra $ you can get into a true 1x with the 1-7 Sightron S-III. With 7x you would be good to go for 500ish.
Sideways, My comment was intended to be constructive. Like being concious of point shooting, when learning use of the tool.
Some newer shooters may not be aware they are point shooting in [ very close / fast, ] situations like you describe. and that the basic skills can get blurred.
With 4x at the bottom,As pointed , out magnification presents negative asset to close / fast non precision target engagement.
Lots of good answers you got in this thread.
Some newer shooters may not be aware they are point shooting in [ very close / fast, ] situations like you describe. and that the basic skills can get blurred.
With 4x at the bottom,As pointed , out magnification presents negative asset to close / fast non precision target engagement.
Lots of good answers you got in this thread.
So in a sense you're saying that due to the proximity and magnification, it can lead to reactive (point) shooting rather than applying marksmanship fundamentals; obviously you'll hit it at such close range but the higher magnification at close range will effect the accuracy due to inadvertently point/reflex shooting? That makes a lot of sense, combined with what the other gentleman pointed out regarding glossing over or not seeing targets while transitioning I now see why lower magnification is preferred.
I think I may lean towards a 1-6x but I'll see if any 1-7/8x offerings exsist within my price range.
I think I may lean towards a 1-6x but I'll see if any 1-7/8x offerings exsist within my price range.
As with any optics purchase it helps to see the different equipment. I have a 'HOLSTER DRAWER' to remind me.
Shoot what you have and attend. Shooters will be able to show their stuff and you decide.
I am older, jealous and winding down. It is a great sport.
Shoot what you have and attend. Shooters will be able to show their stuff and you decide.
I am older, jealous and winding down. It is a great sport.
IF you were doing your CQB at a reasonable pace, you would be going at a very slow speed as compared to what you would be running in 3Gun. Even the 50% shooters in 3Gun will be engaging say 5 targets (10 rounds at say 5-15 yards) in about 5 seconds, the top guys will run that in about 2.5 seconds. Two optics (red dot and scope) put you in open where the cost and speed is even higher. Side irons are slow as compared to an optic with a true 1x at the bottom, but faster than trying to use a 2, 2.5 or 3 at the bottom end of the magnification. Most people tend to over-magnify. I used a 3-9 at my first few matches, then 2-7, then 1.5-6 and the last 4 years I have run 1-4s. My scores improved every time as I got closer to the 1-4. I have placed in the top 10 on long range stages since going to 1-4s, and that includes targets out to 600 yards.
All shooting is always about fundamentals, so don't fall into the spray and pray trap. The 1x allows you better vision with more speed than a magnified optic. You still have to have a good sight picture to press the trigger and get the hits. The 1x just lets you see faster.
The "budget" is probably what is getting you. The Burris MTAC is very good, if not the best, budget optic for 3Gun. The Vortex is very good as well, but the thinner reticle, for me, is slower inside 100 yards which is where most of the shooting happens in 3Gun. The Vortex thinner reticle might be a tad better at 300 yards and out, but I get my hits with the MTAC (unless I blow off the fundamentals, and then no scope helps).
When I shoot customers guns to check groups, I put a fixed 10x optic on, and my 100 yard groups go from about 1.2 to 1.5 MOA down to .5 to .8 MOA, so magnification does make a difference. I just don't think the balance between a precision optic and a 3Gun optic comes together until you cross over the $1K threshold, maybe even higher.
That said, for about $800 or so, you should be able to put a 1-4 on your AR and have a 10x for precision. With good mounts, they are repeatable.
All shooting is always about fundamentals, so don't fall into the spray and pray trap. The 1x allows you better vision with more speed than a magnified optic. You still have to have a good sight picture to press the trigger and get the hits. The 1x just lets you see faster.
The "budget" is probably what is getting you. The Burris MTAC is very good, if not the best, budget optic for 3Gun. The Vortex is very good as well, but the thinner reticle, for me, is slower inside 100 yards which is where most of the shooting happens in 3Gun. The Vortex thinner reticle might be a tad better at 300 yards and out, but I get my hits with the MTAC (unless I blow off the fundamentals, and then no scope helps).
When I shoot customers guns to check groups, I put a fixed 10x optic on, and my 100 yard groups go from about 1.2 to 1.5 MOA down to .5 to .8 MOA, so magnification does make a difference. I just don't think the balance between a precision optic and a 3Gun optic comes together until you cross over the $1K threshold, maybe even higher.
That said, for about $800 or so, you should be able to put a 1-4 on your AR and have a 10x for precision. With good mounts, they are repeatable.
