Chopping a die down?

[KeithStone]

Okay so long story short I cannot get enough shoulder bump on my brass. I am using Redding type s 6.5cm dies and lapua brass. 400 pieces are on their 5th firing and 200 pieces on their second firing.

The issue started on the 4th firing as I was getting a tougher bolt close than I would like. So since it is a barrel nut barrel I assumed I pinched my head space a little tight so I opened it up so I got about 1/2 bolt close on no go instead of 1/4 bolt close. That worked for a firing but now I’m back in the same boat.

I got a tikka to build a hunter/beater rig and I sized a piece of the 2x fired brass and it won’t chamber. I am getting 1.502-1.503 shoulder measure prior to sizing and 1.501 after sizing. I can chamber it in my barrel nut barrel with light resistance but it’s way too tight for my tikka.

I have already tried light to really heavy can over on my press and it doesn’t change the outcome.

So I have a buddy that can turn my die down to shorten it up a bit so I can use the comp shell holder set to adjust back up in case I shorten the die too much.

My question is how much do I take off the die? Currently I am thinking around 6thou. And has anyone ran into this and is there anything I am missing?

 

[AllenOne1]

Are you annealing your brass, it sounds like your brass is getting hard and springing back too much when you resize it?

You can shorten the die a couple of thousands but as you have already seen in increasing the chamber length you will probably get the same problem back after a couple of firings.

 

[spife7980]

Check your diameters too.

Sand some off the top of the shell holder and see if that allows you to get close enough. Turn it over on some sandpaper on a piece of glass or something flat and in a figure eight motion.

 

[Rocketvapor]

How much would it cost to replace your shell holder after you filed it down about 0.005"?
Cheaper than replacing the die?

 

[SERE8541]

Looked into Redding Precision Shell Holders.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I still get confused about the Redding Shell Holder set.
Does the +10 make the bump less or more?

 

[SERE8541]

I still get confused about the Redding Shell Holder set.
Does the +10 make the bump less or more?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Thanks.

It makes sense. Why would you pay $65 for less bump when you could adjust the die.

 

[FCS]

It makes it more of a bump. When you compare the shell holders, you will see they are thinner than standard by the amount marked on the shell holder. This pushes your brass up into the die by that much more. So you set up your die with your standard shell holder first. Then if you want to increase the bump, you just put in that shell holder for that amount of bump. They go from .002" to 0.010" in .002" increments (5 holders in a box).

Redding Competition Shell holders are reducing your bump.
Most times when a sizer die is touching shell holder you are bumping shoulder close to 0.006". Competition shell holders allow you to touch shell holder with die but reduce how much you push shoulder back.
I guarantee you that competition shell holder reduces how much you can bump shoulder vs standard shell holder. If you measure a standard shell holder with a caliper depth gauge it will measure 0.125 from top of shell holder to bottom of cutout for shell. Competition shell holder with +2 marking will measure 0.127" for the same measurement.

Find a local machine shop with a precision grinder and have them grind down a couple shell holders taking off 0.002", 0.004", 0.006" and maybe 0.008".
Shell holders are cheaper then a die, modify the less expensive part.

 

[HemiPowrd]

Or you could get the Area419 Shellholder set that works for almost all calibers. More $$$, but will work with most all calibers.

AREA 419 Shellholders

 

[spife7980]

Ideally redding comp she’ll holders allow you to maintain full contact between the shell holder and die body so it eliminates any potential case to case flex differences in the press.

I too though find it easy to get consistent sizing with consistent annealing and lubrication making adjust the die in the lock ring simple and I don’t even use a “shell holder”

 

[fireflight]

I've only had one die in all my years of handloading that had this issue. The die was adjusted down all the way and had a substantial amount of cam-over. It would only bump the shoulder 0.0015 after sizing. The die maker offered to replace it, but I ended up facing it off 0.008 and everything was fine. The shell holder will not make a difference if the die is already bottomed out.

Edit: The die was shortened after attempting to use the Redding comp shell holders.

Edit II: This was a poor choice of words. I removed 0.008 thousandths after researching the use of the Redding competition shell holders. Thanks to all that have commented on this mistake.

I would like to ask the question of why would you modify the shell holder instead of putting the die in a lathe and removing the desired amount? Every new shellholder will need this mod down the road if replaced.

 

[SERE8541]

Thanks.

It makes sense. Why would you pay $65 for less bump when you could adjust the die.

 

[Carl_Ross]

Makita 40V max XGT Brushless Lithium-Ion 6 in. Cordless Paddle Switch Angle Grinder with Electric Brake (Tool Only)

Makita 40V max XGT Brushless Lithium-Ion 6 in. Cordless Paddle Switch Angle Grinder with Electric Brake (Tool Only)

www.cpooutlets.com

I've done a few, you could be rocking in 5 minutes...

 

[918v]

I've only had one die in all my years of handloading that had this issue. The die was adjusted down all the way and had a substantial amount of cam-over. It would only bump the shoulder 0.0015 after sizing. The die maker offered to replace it, but I ended up facing it off 0.008 and everything was fine. The shell holder will not make a difference if the die is already bottomed out.

Edit: The die was shortened after attempting to use the Redding comp shell holders.

Redding Competition Shell Holders reduce the amount of shoulder bump, not increase it.

 

[KeithStone]

Are you annealing your brass, it sounds like your brass is getting hard and springing back too much when you resize it?

You can shorten the die a couple of thousands but as you have already seen in increasing the chamber length you will probably get the same problem back after a couple of firings.

I am not annealing. Maybe my thoughts on the die are out of line but if my chamber blows the brass out to ~1.503 and my die is capable of bumping to 1.501 if I reduce the die to be able to bump to 1.495 and use shell holders to achieve 1.499 I should be able to repeat this sequence. Although it will likely reduce brass life.

Check your diameters too.
View attachment 8084149

Sand some off the top of the shell holder and see if that allows you to get close enough. Turn it over on some sandpaper on a piece of glass or something flat and in a figure eight motion.

I’ll check diameters when I get back this afternoon. I did try to sand down the standard shell holder but it just put a very pretty polish on the top without reducing thickness. I just assumed it was too hard to get any material removed.

 

[KeithStone]

Makita 40V max XGT Brushless Lithium-Ion 6 in. Cordless Paddle Switch Angle Grinder with Electric Brake (Tool Only)

Makita 40V max XGT Brushless Lithium-Ion 6 in. Cordless Paddle Switch Angle Grinder with Electric Brake (Tool Only)

www.cpooutlets.com

I've done a few, you could be rocking in 5 minutes...

I was tempted to go this route yesterday but was worried about keeping the surface even. I’ll test my bubba dremal skills on my standard shell holder this afternoon and report back

 

[KeithStone]

Update.

After some dremal work and some sand paper I was able to get the bump. So with “normal” cam over the brass sized down to 1.4965 then moved to just a slight cam over and got 1.4995-1.4990

Both cases cycle great through my barrel nut barrel but the 1.4995 is still on the tight side for this tikka chamber. The 1.4965 cycles easy so I gonna try to find tune and get it to 1.498 and see how that does.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I had this issue only once. Couldn't get the die to F/L bump enough. I contacted the die Mfg. Sent the die back and they skimmed .008" off the die bottom. The die worked perfectly after that. I felt better to send the die back rather than try the skimming myself. It only cost the shipping.

As far as the Redding Competition shell holders, so many pipe into these type of threads and advise their use but don't understand how they work, probably because they don't actually use them.

They lengthen shoulder bump, NOT shorten it. I use them and find them a good tool to use for the various kinds of brass I use.

 

[918v]

As far as the Redding Competition shell holders, so many pipe into these type of threads and advise their use but don't understand how they work, probably because they don't actually use them.

They lengthen shoulder bump, NOT shorten it.

“Lengthen shoulder bump” does not work. Shoulder bump is the reduction of the shoulder length. Lengthening the reduction of shoulder length confuses everyone.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Thanks,
Confused again .
Is that lengthen shoulder bump forward, OR shorten shoulder bump backwards?

 

[918v]

They are taller shell holders so the die doesn’t bump the shoulder as much. Sooo that results in a longer shoulder length after sizing.

 

[jakelly]

Can we get a looky-loo at the Dremel work on that shell-holder? I, for one, would like to judge you.

 

[FCS]

Thanks,
Confused again .
Is that lengthen shoulder bump forward, OR shorten shoulder bump backwards?

Redding Competition Shell holders are reducing your bump.
Most times when a sizer die is touching shell holder you are bumping shoulder close to 0.006". Competition shell holders allow you to touch shell holder with die but reduce how much you push shoulder back.
I guarantee you that competition shell holder reduces how much you can bump shoulder vs standard shell holder. If you measure a standard shell holder with a caliper depth gauge it will measure 0.125 from top of shell holder to bottom of cutout for shell. Competition shell holder with +2 marking will measure 0.127" for the same measurement.

Find a local machine shop with a precision grinder and have them grind down a couple shell holders taking off 0.002", 0.004", 0.006" and maybe 0.008".

Using Redding Competition Shell Holder will increase distance from case head to datum line on shoulder vs a standard shell holder.

 

[KeithStone]

Can we get a looky-loo at the Dremel work on that shell-holder? I, for one, would like to judge you.

Hogged a bit too much off the back side but the die wasn’t touching it so it should be fine..? After I got it set everything bumped a perfect 1.498

 

[tomme boy]

Have you checked the measurements at the web? Case head expansion will give you very hard chambering. Shortening your die or shell holder will not fix that.

 

[eschafer]

assuming your hard chambering is a bump issue and not case head expansion issue,

why not just try a feeler gauge beneath the case head and the shell holder? (same as grinding top of shell holder or grinding the btm of the die).. it essentially raises the case into the die... we use one often, the type that are used to measure spark plug gap... (shim stock type).... because the thinnest shim is often as low as 0.002", you have great control over your chosen bump...

 

[918v]

A .002” feeler gauge is too flimsy for that.

 

[eschafer]

flimsy for what? it lays flat under the case head while sizing... works consistently.. do it constantly, even when too lazy to adjust die a couple thou...

 

[918v]

Flimsy for reloading. When you’re sizing a bunch of cases you get into a rhythm and having to use a .002” thick piece of metal inbetween the shell holder and the case will slow you down because if you don’t you’ll bend it and ruin it. Shaving a $10 shell holder produces a durable robust tool.

 

[eschafer]

I load 20 at a time.... understand your concern for being slowed down...

 

[tomme boy]

Well by the images of your brass you have a case head issue more than not enough bump. Anneal the cases and that will tell you if it is a case head expansion issue or just spring back from hard brass. You don't have to do all of them just a couple and then size them and see if they fit in both chambers.

 

[MK20]

Are you reloading on a Lee press?

Because I had the linkage arm hairline crack on my Lee twice and I got rid of it for an RCBS.

Never had the issue you are having again because my press wasn't flexing when I sized.

 

[KeithStone]

Sized 200 pieces to 1.498 and spot checked in the tikka chamber along the way. No issues and cycled perfect so I think it was the shoulder not the case head.

I’m using an rcbs

 

[Haney]

Sized 200 pieces to 1.498 and spot checked in the tikka chamber along the way. No issues and cycled perfect so I think it was the shoulder not the case head.

I’m using an rcbs

Good news , glad you figured it out .

 

[Haney]

A .002” feeler gauge is too flimsy for that.

Hahaha....more proof you do not reload .

 

[Haney]

Flimsy for reloading. When you’re sizing a bunch of cases you get into a rhythm and having to use a .002” thick piece of metal inbetween the shell holder and the case will slow you down because if you don’t you’ll bend it and ruin it. Shaving a $10 shell holder produces a durable robust tool.

"Flimsy Feeler Gauge"...No backing out of that bullshit . You look like a fool when you get caught . Why bother ? Sit back and read and maybe someday you will get nerve to load a round .

 

[jakelly]

@Haney
How are you guys running feeler gauges dealing with the primers?

 

[918v]

"Flimsy Feeler Gauge"...No backing out of that bullshit . You look like a fool when you get caught . Why bother ? Sit back and read and maybe someday you will get nerve to load a round .

You are a retard.