Looks like some of our brothers have their hands full! irs is in trouble with Lerner and the Bundys are the smoke screen. Wish I was closer! I'd be there tomorrow! (note to mods) if you can manipulate this to violate the rules, just delete it or me. Thx. RJB ;-)
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Clark Co. NV
- Thread starter Turd in the Pool
- Start date
Don't see any way that is going to end well. Whether the Federales blink first or the other side does there has been damage done. Looks like another round fired in the war on the West. One thing certain, it will be first ignored then twisted by the mainstream media.
I wondered how long until someone posted this topic. Figured mods have been deleting it. We can't keep our heads in the sand. Some things can't be ignored.
Credit elsewhere, but before this gets too wound up read these:
Two federal district court orders, as well as the administrative notices from the BLM, are linked here: Public Notices and Court Orders
The July 9, 2013 United States vs. Cliven Bundy ruling: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...File.dat/Dkt 35 Order Granting MSJ 7-9-13.pdf
The October 9, 2013 United States vs. Cliven Bundy ruling: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media... Order Granting Motion to Enforce 10-9-13.pdf
Cliff Notes: Nevada District Court says Bundy has no claim to the land.
Two federal district court orders, as well as the administrative notices from the BLM, are linked here: Public Notices and Court Orders
The July 9, 2013 United States vs. Cliven Bundy ruling: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...File.dat/Dkt 35 Order Granting MSJ 7-9-13.pdf
The October 9, 2013 United States vs. Cliven Bundy ruling: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media... Order Granting Motion to Enforce 10-9-13.pdf
Cliff Notes: Nevada District Court says Bundy has no claim to the land.
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The BLM has run 52 neighboring ranch families off of their land in that area of southern Nevada. Nevada senator Harry Reid got his senate chief of staff the job as the head of Nevada BLM. Harry Reids son is the front for a Chinese company that wants to develope this land along the Virgin River, just north of Las Vegas along the interstate.
The Bundy family has worked that land since 1877. If they don't have any rights to personal property none of us do.
The Bundy family has worked that land since 1877. If they don't have any rights to personal property none of us do.
Limiting public objection and censoring news media access??????? We are now north korea
What a joke! "new trespass lands"
"Bundy’s cattle have caused and continue to cause damage to natural and cultural resources and public safety"
Realising last years drought and half of the cattle ranchers sold their herds. Beef prices have doubled. Guess it's time to consider vegetarianism.
The overton window ;-)
II. Legal Standard
Courts have inherent authority to enforce a permanent injunction where the enjoined party
continues to engage in conduct that violates the injunction. See Sys. Fed’n No. 91, Ry. Emp. Dep’t,
ALF-CIO v. Wright, 364 U.S. 642, 647 (1961). Furthermore, “sound judicial discretion may call
for the modification of the terms of an injunctive decree if the circumstances, whether of law or
fact, obtaining at the time of its issuance have changed, or new ones have since arisen.” Id. The
power to modify derives from “the fact that an injunction often requires continuing supervision by
the issuing court and always a continuing willingness to apply its powers and processes on behalf
of the party who obtained that equitable relief. Id.
///
fox just said the issued a "no fly zone" order. Guess they don't want pics of gov't snipers honing in on grandma
Sorry boys, no one there will be either dumb enough, or brave enough to be the one who fires the first shot. This will not go down in history as an insurrection of any kind. It will be squashed, and nothing will come of it because the government will stop any and all traffic into the area that will support the opposition. The only effective way to fight this battle is to do it big, and do it right. Make many small forces, roll them in quietly as close as possible, then hit any and all government positions, all at once, hard, and to the point of total capitulation of forces. Sorry, but this ain't gonna happen
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We'll see. Mr. Bundy seems pretty serious. Not to mention within his rights. I don't take kindly to having my own rug pulled out from under me. Don't suspect he does either. ;-)
I know what I'd do. Let 'em railroad me once. It ain't gonna happen again!
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FAA now has the airspace cut off - restricted via this official NOTAM:
4/1687 NOTAM Details
ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF BLM ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE
4/1687 NOTAM Details
ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF BLM ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE
Oops, Sorry - I posted this while standing outside of my federally assigned "1st amendment zone".
A tank?????????????????????????
?Big government is dangerous!? Charlie Daniels has a question about the situation at #BundyRanch; Updated | Twitchy
?Big government is dangerous!? Charlie Daniels has a question about the situation at #BundyRanch; Updated | Twitchy
I actually thought this was mainly a control issue. Unfortunately I had forgotten rule #1 of cause and effect,ie; When a question exists,ALWAYS, follow the money. The combination of a very large Chinese energy company, a Nevada political family, with a sizable seasoning of lawyers stirred in results in confusion, potential mayhem,trampled rights both civil and States, and "oh bye the way" ample money available for political campaigns,bribes,payments for past performance etc. It seems like the Bundy family just didn't get the memo when it was delivered by peaceful means.
May cool heads and common sense prevail. If not, check your perimeter, you could be next.
May cool heads and common sense prevail. If not, check your perimeter, you could be next.
I'm just saying,,,, that a very similar thing happened up here just a few months ago. A farmer/rancher whose land was held/owned/paid-taxes-on for more than two-hundred-and-fifteen years was 'appropriated' by the government so that they could relocate an army base onto it.
Ya'll do what you need to do, and do what you do best. It's time things like this got cleared up.
Ya'll do what you need to do, and do what you do best. It's time things like this got cleared up.
It'll be sooner than that.
In 1992 the UN created the Rio Declaration on Sustainable Development - this is commonly known as Agenda 21. The document was not ratified, but agreed to by consensus - yes, by the USA too. I encourage all to read the entire document as it is a comprehensive framework that alters our entire way of life. It has been in motion for 22 years now and is pervasive.
I work in the land use field, and I can tell you that this VERY real. Have you heard of or seen 'Micro Apartments', 'Lane Diets' on your roadways, 'Parking Maximums', 'Density Minimums', or been through the NEPA process? These are all the result of A21. In fact the framing body for the Land Use Planning chapter (C10) was written by an organization called the ICLEI and more than likely your community is a member of the organization and therefore follows their dictates in planning your community. In the summer of 2013 the ICLEI took down their membership roster, however it can still be viewed here: http://downtowncary.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Member-List-ICLEI-USA-7-3-2013.jpg
Regarding Land Use, I strongly encourage all to at least read c4 - Changing Consumption Patterns - in which they are engineering new consumption patterns to more evenly distribute consumption globally. Agenda 21 - Chapter 4: Changing Consumption Patterns, Earth Summit, 1992 Secondly, I encourage that you read the actual land use chapter Agenda 21 - Chapter 10 Integrated Approach to the Planning and Management of Land Resources, Earth Summit, 1992 Ultimately you need to read all the of document to understand how this leads up to understanding why the attached Bio Diversity Map was created. The BiO Diversity Map shows the true intent - herd the masses into major metro area and deny anyone's ability to access the areas in red.
In Oregon we basically lost the timber industry to the same rouse - the Spotted Owl was said to be endangered and the only way to save it was to halt logging on 'old growth' trees. The means to classify old growth was of course nebulous and therefore egregiously used. Now that the industry is on its last legs it has been determined that the fate of owl has nothing to do with the age of the tree it roosts in, but in fact a predator. Regardless, there is simply a substitute reason to file suit and impede logging - even after a catastrophic fire.
The first real inroads of the Bio Diversity Map were established in Oregon in June of 2000 with advent of the Cascade Siskiyou Monument - 86,000 acres locked up: roadless - where there were roads; all cattle removed - crushing ranchers. Access is by foot and there are heavy restrictions on what you can do once you get there. Now they are trying to expand on that victory with a 600,000 acre Siskiyou Crest Monument.
This is is very real, and it is happening largely for two reasons 1) It is a rural Western States issue. All those that live in the East and contribute to groups like The Audubon Society or The Nature Conservancy (many 'hunting foundations') don't fully understand that the money they give furthers this effort. 2) no one can be bothered to inform themselves of what is really going on around them.
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In some ways the Italian Actor portraying an American Indian is fitting when discussing the realities of 'Public' Lands (sold to the Chinese)
Too much of this is going on under the guise of endangered species, waterway protection and other similar regulations. I'm also getting very tired of hearing about "the law of the land."
update and breaking news - Local sheriff has potentially reached some level of a compromise to de-escalate the situation.
News site: Nevada Cattle Rancher Wins 'Range War' With Federal Government - ABC News
The Bureau of Land Management has announced it would not enforce a court order to remove Cliven Bundy’s cattle and was pulling out of the area., defusing the nearly week-long siege on the Nevada ranch.
The BLM made the announcement Saturday morning, a week after rangers started gathering the animals from land near Gold Butte.
News site: Nevada Cattle Rancher Wins 'Range War' With Federal Government - ABC News
The Bureau of Land Management has announced it would not enforce a court order to remove Cliven Bundy’s cattle and was pulling out of the area., defusing the nearly week-long siege on the Nevada ranch.
The BLM made the announcement Saturday morning, a week after rangers started gathering the animals from land near Gold Butte.
I suppose if I were Bundy I'd be asking myself if Lon Houruchi was still employed and until an answer was received I'd stay away from windows.
Suspect we have not heard the last of this. But it had the potential to be one discharge away from being something very ugly. I, for one, would not have wanted to be one of the deputies facing some 300 armed protesters. Especially when I know where my sympathies are.
I am delighted that BLM has backed off. My opinion is that BLM doesn't have a leg to stand on, but I am not a Constitutional scholar.
If we can keep this thread from going political and getting shut down, there is an opportunity for some interesting discussions.
Cheers,
Sirhr
I am delighted that BLM has backed off. My opinion is that BLM doesn't have a leg to stand on, but I am not a Constitutional scholar.
If we can keep this thread from going political and getting shut down, there is an opportunity for some interesting discussions.
Cheers,
Sirhr
BLM destroyed over 1000 desert turtles a few years ago because they didn't have enough money/land to put them somewhere. They are NOT clean and not looking out for anybody but old Dingy Harry. He didn't become a millionair by his smarts.
It's a sign that America and society is alive and doing well.
Part of it is the cost the civilization, i.e. money/special interest using their power to push things a bit unfairly to their advantage. Money is good because leads to job, value, and infrastructure creation and power generally keeps things orderly so life can go on without sectarian violence like much of Africa. The population of California was made possible by stealing water from ranchers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars
When things start to get out of a balance, there's no feedback loop on the side of the powerful as they will keep on taking more of things for themselves until they encounter some resistance. The Michigan militia used to do stuff like this all the time, before the Oklahoma city incident, which made them back up their bags and run to Alaska:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky49ltgeXRU
This is also a problem with these militias as with no organization or cohesion, all it takes is one radicalized psycho to push things to a place nobody wants it to go. Thank god this one ended well as the blowback from an incident would lead to some major issues we would all have to deal with.
There's also a fine line between standing up for the little guy and revolting for the sake of revolt, which I think is attractive as I think these 'militia movements' attract a lot of unfulfilled people who are a bit jealous of money and power who don't have anything in their life really living for, so they just want a fight.
It's also a bit different pushing up against BLM which is supported by a rather weak lobby, i.e. some Chinese investors and one Senator than dealing with some of the lobbies that a lot of the 'whistleblowers' are dealing with. There's much more money at play in the later case as well as some pretty deeply held ideologies, and generally its a lose/lose situation from the guy that tries to go up against it.
Part of it is the cost the civilization, i.e. money/special interest using their power to push things a bit unfairly to their advantage. Money is good because leads to job, value, and infrastructure creation and power generally keeps things orderly so life can go on without sectarian violence like much of Africa. The population of California was made possible by stealing water from ranchers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars
When things start to get out of a balance, there's no feedback loop on the side of the powerful as they will keep on taking more of things for themselves until they encounter some resistance. The Michigan militia used to do stuff like this all the time, before the Oklahoma city incident, which made them back up their bags and run to Alaska:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky49ltgeXRU
This is also a problem with these militias as with no organization or cohesion, all it takes is one radicalized psycho to push things to a place nobody wants it to go. Thank god this one ended well as the blowback from an incident would lead to some major issues we would all have to deal with.
There's also a fine line between standing up for the little guy and revolting for the sake of revolt, which I think is attractive as I think these 'militia movements' attract a lot of unfulfilled people who are a bit jealous of money and power who don't have anything in their life really living for, so they just want a fight.
It's also a bit different pushing up against BLM which is supported by a rather weak lobby, i.e. some Chinese investors and one Senator than dealing with some of the lobbies that a lot of the 'whistleblowers' are dealing with. There's much more money at play in the later case as well as some pretty deeply held ideologies, and generally its a lose/lose situation from the guy that tries to go up against it.
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I followed this whole thing just a tiny fraction at the beginning as its right next door to me in southern Utah. Since then I figured it would go away, they'd figure something out or much teeth gnashing for nothing.
What the hell happened? I live 30 mins from the NV border and I've heard ZERO about this around town. Can someone give me a cliff's notes version?
All I know is that a rancher that had rights/access to BLM land didn't like some changes to his contract so he was like screw the government for changing something. Then the .gov started taking his livestock? That's about where it ended for me.
Next thing I see is that he is still fighting them somehow and said that this will not end well for them (what is he doing??) and some people started to stay on his land as 'protection'? Is this even close to correct?
What's going on?
What the hell happened? I live 30 mins from the NV border and I've heard ZERO about this around town. Can someone give me a cliff's notes version?
All I know is that a rancher that had rights/access to BLM land didn't like some changes to his contract so he was like screw the government for changing something. Then the .gov started taking his livestock? That's about where it ended for me.
Next thing I see is that he is still fighting them somehow and said that this will not end well for them (what is he doing??) and some people started to stay on his land as 'protection'? Is this even close to correct?
What's going on?
Now that the public has stood up for Bundy will he let you cross his private property to get to the public land he has locked up...To many of these Ranchers want the use of Public Property but don't want to allow you to have access to the same land.
Here in North Eastern Nevada some of the Ranchers have asked the BLM to delete roads off of Maps that show the roads crossing their property to get to Public land.
Here in North Eastern Nevada some of the Ranchers have asked the BLM to delete roads off of Maps that show the roads crossing their property to get to Public land.
And herein lies the problem. The ranchers want ACCESS to public land for grazing but after a few years then they think they have sole right to said PUBLIC land because they have been grazing for X amount of years. Sorry but public is public and if they want the publics' support when the BLM kicks them off "their" land then they need to maintain public access.
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Yep I've seen that here in Utah. My HuntGPS shows me that I am in BLM land for miles in every direction yet, all of a sudden there are closed off roads via home made fencing or whatever they put up.
If this impedes me from getting to where I need to go or an area I want to hunt, your portion of fence blocking the path is coming down and I don't give a shit.
Agreed. If you are a rancher that is using public land and worried about lossing a cow or two well as they say "that is the cost of doing business"
I will add that it is hypocritical (and morrally wrong even by religious beliefs) to ban "we the people" when it suits your cause and then envoke "we the people" to bolster your cause.
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Lots of disinformation on both sides. Since this a sniper web site lets get this cleared up immediately. BLM LE has no snipers, never has had snipers and never will have snipers. If you ever see a BLM Ranger with a scoped rifle it is because a few, not all are authorized to shoot injured wild horses or burros. The rules of euthanasia are written in stone. After a Ranger locates an injured animal he has to call back to the Horse specialist and describe the injury. The Horse Specialist may consult a Vet. Only after the go ahead is given can the animal be put down. The Ranger has to do a full report to include photos.The assortment of weapons they use for this are Ruger Hawkeyes in 3006, Remington 700 in 308, 3006 a few PSS 300 win mags and quite few savages model 110 and 10's. For the few that have these weapons at their disposal it is completely verboten through policy to use one on another human being no mater what the reason. BLM carries 870's, SIG Family side arms and Colt AR's they are trained to use for LE.
Now for Mister Bundy. Bundy had a federal grazing permit to graze on BLM administered public lands, these lands before the existence of BLM were in the Department of the Interiors charge and before the DOI was formed in 1849 the Feds got the land after a little spat called the war with Mexico. Nevada became a state in 1864 I believe. The lands were in Feds hand before Nevada was a State and were bought and paid for by the blood of federal troops.
Bundy is suppose to pay the government to graze public land based on a little known Law called the the Taylor Grazing Act From 1934. This Act established grazing Districts and the US Grazing Service which eventually merged with the old General Land Office to become the BLM. Currently the rate to pay is $1.81 per AUM (Animal Unit Month) I think. AUM is a cow calf pair so that is what the Feds charge to graze one cow and one calf for one month. The going rate here where I live to do this on private land is about $25.
Some time in the late 80's early 90's the desert tortoise became threatened and the BLM put together a plan to save it (please add part about BLM killing them to save them here!?) this called for reduced grazing and offered ranchers who had allotments to relinquish their grazing permits for a fee paid to the rancher. Everyone decided to sell out except Bundy. Now you can say the BLM paid ranchers to quit ranching. You can say the BLM made it such a pain in the ass to ranch these guys said "fuck it" took the money an didn't look back. Either way Bundy and his enormous spread of 160 acres of base private property decided to start running his cows on Public land the other outfits just vacated. He filled a vacuum and his herd grew. Now whether you agree or not with his methods he told BLM to piss up a rope. He claims the BLM is really the state of Nevadas land, he never paid the BLM any grazing fees. Built range improvements, and grazed the Public Land like it was his. After constant court battles he finally lost in US District court and was ordered to remove his cattle from the range or face an impound. That is where we are today. Bundy is very skillfull and points out his family has been there since the 1870's to show precedence over BLM. There is many reports saying BLM is trying to throw him off his private property. That is total BS and is just to inflame everyone. From a legal stand point personally I don't think Bundy has a leg to stand on. The US District court agrees with me. I mean, why should any rancher that pays grazing fees have to pay every year and he doesn't? If you take oil and gas off public land you have to pay the Feds. If you cut down trees off the National Forest you have to pay the Feds because it's the peoples resource not some individuals private property.
Now of course we can debate into the night the BLM and the US Forest Services poor stewardship of the land. The ridiculous laws and regulations put on us before we can cut a stick to roast a hot dog in a campfire. I really believe our lands are being mismanaged by these agencies. If Cliven Bundy is going to be hero, it's not because he is delinquent in paying his grazing fees and claims public land as his own. It's because his little range war has given power to the little guy. He made the BLM back down. Now other ranchers can invoke this same power when they are given some ridiculous land use plan to adhere to. For instance this is what is going on with the Greater Sage Grouse ESA possible listing. Everyone can band together and say " BLM, US District Court. Your plan is crap and we will not recognize it" Now these agencies will have to work with its partners, otherwise the ranchers will tell them to go to hell.
Now for Mister Bundy. Bundy had a federal grazing permit to graze on BLM administered public lands, these lands before the existence of BLM were in the Department of the Interiors charge and before the DOI was formed in 1849 the Feds got the land after a little spat called the war with Mexico. Nevada became a state in 1864 I believe. The lands were in Feds hand before Nevada was a State and were bought and paid for by the blood of federal troops.
Bundy is suppose to pay the government to graze public land based on a little known Law called the the Taylor Grazing Act From 1934. This Act established grazing Districts and the US Grazing Service which eventually merged with the old General Land Office to become the BLM. Currently the rate to pay is $1.81 per AUM (Animal Unit Month) I think. AUM is a cow calf pair so that is what the Feds charge to graze one cow and one calf for one month. The going rate here where I live to do this on private land is about $25.
Some time in the late 80's early 90's the desert tortoise became threatened and the BLM put together a plan to save it (please add part about BLM killing them to save them here!?) this called for reduced grazing and offered ranchers who had allotments to relinquish their grazing permits for a fee paid to the rancher. Everyone decided to sell out except Bundy. Now you can say the BLM paid ranchers to quit ranching. You can say the BLM made it such a pain in the ass to ranch these guys said "fuck it" took the money an didn't look back. Either way Bundy and his enormous spread of 160 acres of base private property decided to start running his cows on Public land the other outfits just vacated. He filled a vacuum and his herd grew. Now whether you agree or not with his methods he told BLM to piss up a rope. He claims the BLM is really the state of Nevadas land, he never paid the BLM any grazing fees. Built range improvements, and grazed the Public Land like it was his. After constant court battles he finally lost in US District court and was ordered to remove his cattle from the range or face an impound. That is where we are today. Bundy is very skillfull and points out his family has been there since the 1870's to show precedence over BLM. There is many reports saying BLM is trying to throw him off his private property. That is total BS and is just to inflame everyone. From a legal stand point personally I don't think Bundy has a leg to stand on. The US District court agrees with me. I mean, why should any rancher that pays grazing fees have to pay every year and he doesn't? If you take oil and gas off public land you have to pay the Feds. If you cut down trees off the National Forest you have to pay the Feds because it's the peoples resource not some individuals private property.
Now of course we can debate into the night the BLM and the US Forest Services poor stewardship of the land. The ridiculous laws and regulations put on us before we can cut a stick to roast a hot dog in a campfire. I really believe our lands are being mismanaged by these agencies. If Cliven Bundy is going to be hero, it's not because he is delinquent in paying his grazing fees and claims public land as his own. It's because his little range war has given power to the little guy. He made the BLM back down. Now other ranchers can invoke this same power when they are given some ridiculous land use plan to adhere to. For instance this is what is going on with the Greater Sage Grouse ESA possible listing. Everyone can band together and say " BLM, US District Court. Your plan is crap and we will not recognize it" Now these agencies will have to work with its partners, otherwise the ranchers will tell them to go to hell.
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Excellent post. I had come to pretty much the same conclusion, but didn't have the facts to back it up as well as you did so I stayed out of it. Mr. Bundy's hard head could very well have gotten a lot of people killed.
Good points here Dunbar, any insight on why they put a no fly zone over the area? I found that strange.
Nothing sinister such as drones or the like. Lots of agency contracted air traffic running around. Doing a NOTAM no fly zone is fairly common with Wildfires. I'm sure this OP is running similar risks. The last thing you want is the News 8 Helo or uncle Jed in his Super Cub buzzing around when you are flyin low and slow rounding up cows. I hear they have at least 4 helos running around.
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Excellent post DuneBoer, I've been following this on the radio, news channels and internet over the last few days and don't have enough info yet to truly form my 100% stand behind opinion. From having many friends who ranch and use or have used rangeland, and knowing how that works, I would be really curious to see the range permits as issued.
As for now though, I do side with the Bundy's, mostly from a factor of the federal response being way over the top. I'm the 1st person who would like to support him because he 'got screwed out of his land by the fed's', but having knowledge about how this works I can't put myself there yet, I'd really, really like to see the range permits to see as Paul Harvey would say, 'The Rest of the Story'. If this is to be one of the first flat out throw your heels in the ground stands, the i's need to be dotted and t's need to be crossed.
I am very curious as to what, if anything, happens on this deal come Monday and the rest of next week...
As for now though, I do side with the Bundy's, mostly from a factor of the federal response being way over the top. I'm the 1st person who would like to support him because he 'got screwed out of his land by the fed's', but having knowledge about how this works I can't put myself there yet, I'd really, really like to see the range permits to see as Paul Harvey would say, 'The Rest of the Story'. If this is to be one of the first flat out throw your heels in the ground stands, the i's need to be dotted and t's need to be crossed.
I am very curious as to what, if anything, happens on this deal come Monday and the rest of next week...
In the interest of balance, here's what Forbes had to say, which for some reason was hurriedly spiked. It's still cached at:
You'll probably need to copy and paste that link for it to work.
NB: Typographical error in last line, correction bolded by poster.
Code:
[URL="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:[url"]http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2014/04/09/using-snipers-to-protect-a-tortoise/&strip=1[/URL]You'll probably need to copy and paste that link for it to work.
NB: Typographical error in last line, correction bolded by poster.
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