CLE chamber jams everything... normal?

[Dev L]

So after I tested my Bartlein 1/7.7 turned by CLE with 223 CLE match chamber, I have found it jams everything into the lands. Previously I had massive pressure signs with 5.56 ammo. With handloads I will be jamming everything to the lands. Is that normal?

My Hornady OAL gauge shows 2.2600/2.2605 as when I just feel it touch the lands with a 77 TMK. That makes my normal loads touch the lands. With 77 SMK it touches at 2.2310 and I see visible marks on the bullet at 2.2360 so it jams 10-20 thou on mag length loads. I could already tell my Frontier 5.56 Hornady 75 OTM grain factory loads jammed the lands because heaspace didnt even give enough room for unfired rounds to not stick.

Is this normal? I have to jam 77 SMKs? Load TMKs on the lands? Cant load 75 OTM? Anyone have CLE match chamber to confirm?

 

[bigjake83]

So after I tested my Bartlein 1/7.7 turned by CLE with 223 CLE match chamber, I have found it jams everything into the lands. Previously I had massive pressure signs with 5.56 ammo. With handloads I will be jamming everything to the lands. Is that normal?

My Hornady OAL gauge shows 2.2600/2.2605 as when I just feel it touch the lands with a 77 TMK. That makes my normal loads touch the lands. With 77 SMK it touches at 2.2310 and I see visible marks on the bullet at 2.2360 so it jams 10-20 thou on mag length loads. I could already tell my Frontier 5.56 Hornady 75 OTM grain factory loads jammed the lands because heaspace didnt even give enough room for unfired rounds to not stick.

Is this normal? I have to jam 77 SMKs? Load TMKs on the lands? Cant load 75 OTM? Anyone have CLE match chamber to confirm?

Didn't you already post a thread about this??

If you are doing everything that you say you are doing correctly, no it is not normal send the barrel back to Frank and let him know what's going on.

CLE has outstanding Customer service and if it's the barrel Frank will have a new one out to you in a week or two at the latest. You should honestly be sending these questions and concerns via email to CLE we can only do so much here on these forums, and any suggestions you will get will be speculations at best.

 

[Constructor]

So after I tested my Bartlein 1/7.7 turned by CLE with 223 CLE match chamber, I have found it jams everything into the lands. Previously I had massive pressure signs with 5.56 ammo. With handloads I will be jamming everything to the lands. Is that normal?

My Hornady OAL gauge shows 2.2600/2.2605 as when I just feel it touch the lands with a 77 TMK. That makes my normal loads touch the lands. With 77 SMK it touches at 2.2310 and I see visible marks on the bullet at 2.2360 so it jams 10-20 thou on mag length loads. I could already tell my Frontier 5.56 Hornady 75 OTM grain factory loads jammed the lands because heaspace didnt even give enough room for unfired rounds to not stick.

Is this normal? I have to jam 77 SMKs? Load TMKs on the lands? Cant load 75 OTM? Anyone have CLE match chamber to confirm?

First off headspace has nothing to do with where the bullets hit the lands. The length of freebore will determine where the bullets touch. Depending on when this CLE Match chamber was designed it will be designed for best accuracy at mag length (2.26) with the latest greatest match bullet that most are using at the time. If it is the latest chamber it would be designed for the 77TMK to be close to the lands around 2.26. That means almost every other bullet made would need to be set shorter than mag length to keep them out of the lands. Most ammo like the 75otm will not work in the latest match chamber set up to shoot 77TMKs. If you want to shoot a whole bunch of different factory ammo you should have chosen a different chamber.
The 223 Wylde was designed for the 69gr smk, it will allow you to shoot a lot more factory ammo but when the 77tmks are loaded to mag length it will have some jump to the lands.

 

[bigjake83]

First off headspace has nothing to do with where the bullets hit the lands. The length of freebore will determine where the bullets touch. Depending on when this CLE Match chamber was designed it will be designed for best accuracy at mag length (2.26) with the latest greatest match bullet that most are using at the time. If it is the latest chamber it would be designed for the 77TMK to be close to the lands around 2.26. That means almost every other bullet made would need to be set shorter than mag length to keep them out of the lands. Most ammo like the 75otm will not work in the latest match chamber set up to shoot 77TMKs. If you want to shoot a whole bunch of different factory ammo you should have chosen a different chamber.
The 223 Wylde was designed for the 69gr smk, it will allow you to shoot a lot more factory ammo but when the 77tmks are loaded to mag length it will have some jump to the lands.

Good advice but just as an FYI that you may be able to further expand on for the OP, The CLE Chambers AR design for the 77gr SMK and 80gr SMK

Also another recommendation for the OP once he figures out what he's doing, is take a look at the Hornady 73gr Eld

 

[bfoosh006]

I also recommend sending it back in.. describing your issue via a phone call first.

I am comfortable they can fix your specific issue.

 

[Constructor]

Good advice but just as an FYI that you may be able to further expand on for the OP, The CLE Chambers AR design for the 77gr SMK and 80gr SMK

Also another recommendation for the OP once he figures out what he's doing, is take a look at the Hornady 73gr Eld

If Frank designed that chamber for the 77SMK at mag length or single feeding on the long line then something is off jamming a 77TMK at 2.26" I don't know when that specific reamer was designed. Back in the 90s Frank was the man, he always had reamers made for the newest HP bullet out there. Best thing would be to contact Frank and ask him which bullet the reamer was designed for at what OAL.

 

[Dev L]

Didn't you already post a thread about this?

Yes, and it was established the CLE chamber is a 223 chamber, but not that it jams the 77 SMK.

 

[bigjake83]

Yes, and it was established the CLE chamber is a 223 chamber, but not that it jams the 77 SMK.

Yeah I know I've been following that thread. from all the years that I've been ordering barrels from CLE I've only had one dud and when I sent it back frank didn't even inspect it cuz he knows me so well he just had a new one spun up and set it out that same week.

To say the least I'm a die-hard CLE fan but I do want to try some of the barrels from keystone accuracy cuz padam has spoke so highly of them.

 

[Dev L]

First off headspace has nothing to do with where the bullets hit the lands. The length of freebore will determine where the bullets touch. Depending on when this CLE Match chamber was designed it will be designed for best accuracy at mag length (2.26) with the latest greatest match bullet that most are using at the time. If it is the latest chamber it would be designed for the 77TMK to be close to the lands around 2.26. That means almost every other bullet made would need to be set shorter than mag length to keep them out of the lands. Most ammo like the 75otm will not work in the latest match chamber set up to shoot 77TMKs. If you want to shoot a whole bunch of different factory ammo you should have chosen a different chamber.
The 223 Wylde was designed for the 69gr smk, it will allow you to shoot a lot more factory ammo but when the 77tmks are loaded to mag length it will have some jump to the lands.

Understood, but the headspace is the only thing keeping it off the lands and from sticking until the firing pin pushes the round thw last thou to make the bullet touch at 2.260" so headspace does matter. When the firing pin pushes the round forward, you have a headspace gap at the rear, at the case head, instead of both at the front and case head, from the difference in the brass length and chamber headspace, which pulls the ogive away from the lands that last thou till it touches. Thats what I meant when I said headspace is the only thing stopping the bullet from jamming the lands before firing.

 

[Dev L]

So I did a ladder test with 77 TMK loaded to 2.255" in Nosler brass with CCI BR primers and 8208 from 21.0 to 22.2 grains. There were no pressure signs. The most accurate load was 22.2 grains at 1.00" and .81" on new brass. Least accurate were 1.50" and 1.63" with the remainder in the .83" to 1.36" range.

If I cant get better groups without pressure signs, at a higher charge, I will send her back. Though it was a supreme SOB to put the 1.00" BAT extension into the 1.005" I.D. V7 2099 upper. So I might have to send the barreled upper for them to get the barrel back out. Unless there is a giant .98" Delrin punch out there I can buy made for the task.

 

[mheimer_45]

I measured the dtl with a 69 smk in my new Douglas with a CLE chamber tonight. Average coal was 2.35 with 5 bullets. That seams awful tight to me. I’m going to give CLE a call tomorrow and see what they say.

@bigjake83 do you have any insight? Is this normal for a CLE chamber

 

[bigjake83]

I measured the dtl with a 69 smk in my new Douglas with a CLE chamber tonight. Average coal was 2.35 with 5 bullets. That seams awful tight to me. I’m going to give CLE a call tomorrow and see what they say.

@bigjake83 do you have any insight? Is this normal for a CLE chamber

I'll take some measurements for you tomorrow I'll measure some Black hills 77 from the ogive and my Max chamber length on one of my CLE match Chambers.

I can't tell if you're talking about these rounds that you've been reloading or if you are comparing the COAl from box ammo??

When I started reloading a long time ago for my CLE barrels, I was very impressed with the accuracy from Black hills 77 ammo, so I just measured box ammo from the ogive and set the same bullet seating depth for my 77gr SMK reloads and I have never once had a problem.