CLE tactical contour for Do all/ recce? Weight?

[DangerRanger]

Looking to build a 16”-ish do all rifle, and can’t land on a barrel and contour. Building it around a razor 1-6 and maybe a do all 50-550 yards. I have a 12.5 for a cqb rifle.

My contenders so far are:
Compass lake Krieger or Douglas- tactical contour

Criterion core
Ballistic advantage Hanson

I understand these cascade from pretty much the highest tier barrels to solidly mid grade. Part of that is that if I don’t really know what I want I may punt with a Hanson for now.

Anyway, Does anyone have a CLE tactical barrel? How do you like the weight and balance? Called them today and they said they can cut it down to .750 instead of .850 in front of the gas block and right now that’s probably what I’m leaning toward but still a little worried about weight. I think their thick chamber area is a little longer than most, but a .750 to the gas block and .750 tapering after shouldn’t be too heavy for a do all rifle.... right?

 

[MarshallDodge]

I realize that Faxon isn't top tier either but I built a lightweight upper on an 18" Gunner profile and am really happy with it. It heats up pretty quick on a 90 degree day but it shoots sub MOA with 77s, and the rifle feels nicely balanced.

 

[MarkLeupold]

So I'm looking at exactly the same thing. Really, I don't mind the rifle being heavy overall, I'm more concerned about balance so the rifle feels like it points better. I'm looking at the 15.1" Recon profile, which is almost exactly the same as the Tactical profile.

This is roughly the Tactical Profile you describe. 0.750" to the gas block, a touch smaller to the muzzle. With the barrel extension, 2.1 lbs (don't mind that COM mark, it's got some approximate weights added to give an overall rifle COM).

In comparison:

This is the 15.1" Recon barrel at roughly the same weight. As near as I can figure, the rifle is going to balance about 1" behind the front of the magazine unloaded and with no optic. I'd estimate that the modified tactical profile you are considering would move the balance another inch toward the buttstock.

 

[charnicus]

So I'm looking at exactly the same thing. Really, I don't mind the rifle being heavy overall, I'm more concerned about balance so the rifle feels like it points better. I'm looking at the 15.1" Recon profile, which is almost exactly the same as the Tactical profile.

View attachment 7657783
This is roughly the Tactical Profile you describe. 0.750" to the gas block, a touch smaller to the muzzle. With the barrel extension, 2.1 lbs (don't mind that COM mark, it's got some approximate weights added to give an overall rifle COM).

In comparison:
View attachment 7657784
This is the 15.1" Recon barrel at roughly the same weight. As near as I can figure, the rifle is going to balance about 1" behind the front of the magazine unloaded and with no optic. I'd estimate that the modified tactical profile you are considering would move the balance another inch toward the buttstock.

Damn now I see why you wanted such exact measurements! Boom done end thread haha.

 

[DangerRanger]

So I'm looking at exactly the same thing. Really, I don't mind the rifle being heavy overall, I'm more concerned about balance so the rifle feels like it points better. I'm looking at the 15.1" Recon profile, which is almost exactly the same as the Tactical profile.

View attachment 7657783
This is roughly the Tactical Profile you describe. 0.750" to the gas block, a touch smaller to the muzzle. With the barrel extension, 2.1 lbs (don't mind that COM mark, it's got some approximate weights added to give an overall rifle COM).

In comparison:
View attachment 7657784
This is the 15.1" Recon barrel at roughly the same weight. As near as I can figure, the rifle is going to balance about 1" behind the front of the magazine unloaded and with no optic. I'd estimate that the modified tactical profile you are considering would move the balance another inch toward the buttstock.

Wow, what a phenomenal reply!

That looks pretty darn good. I think the extra touch of balance towards the buttstock on the (light)tactical contour would be beneficial since I’ll be running a k can on the end as well.

I had considered that recon barrel also, just not sure I want to deal with a pin and weld job on a 500$ barrel and CLE said they are turning to many barrels to mess with pin jobs right now.

Thank you for your help, this has been super beneficial. One thing I will note is while I should have clarified I’m not totally positive if there is any thickness increase before the gas block journal to provide a shoulder. I may have to clarify that before I order.

Now I just have to play Rock Paper Scissors on Douglas or Krieger this time

 

[MarkLeupold]

Wow, what a phenomenal reply!

That looks pretty darn good. I think the extra touch of balance towards the buttstock on the (light)tactical contour would be beneficial since I’ll be running a k can on the end as well.

I had considered that recon barrel also, just not sure I want to deal with a pin and weld job on a 500$ barrel and CLE said they are turning to many barrels to mess with pin jobs right now.

Thank you for your help, this has been super beneficial. One thing I will note is while I should have clarified I’m not totally positive if there is any thickness increase before the gas block journal to provide a shoulder. I may have to clarify that before I order.

Now I just have to play Rock Paper Scissors on Douglas or Krieger this time

I saw this thread pop up this morning and thought, "My time has come."

Depending on what else you have on the rifle, I think it should be a pretty handy rifle. I think mine is going to come in around 6.75 lbs no optic, balance point somewhere in the magazine well.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

So I've been evaluating the CORE 18" from Criterion. And now that its mostly broken in I'm comfortable with its accuracy @ .72 on a 5 shot group using BH 77TMK factory ammo. Haven't ran it through the Magneto Speed yet. Its not stringing any more after 125 rnds. As far as the balance goes , its REALLY GOOD - feels like a shorter barrel. That being said, if the 18" CORE is this good, the 16 should be a no brainer.

 

[DangerRanger]

I actually have a core 12.5 that I very much like. I just thinking I’m asking a lot for a .625 chromed barrel to be as accurate as I want and I also don’t want to wait 6 months lol it’s my 2nd choice for sure. My 12.5 is very nice

 

[tuckybill]

Are you going to add a suppressor? If not I just love my unthreaded 20" barrels. They are quieter, more velocity and not any more awkward or heavy than a 16" with some huge muzzle device (which I think is just for looks) on it. CLE will make 'em just like that if you want. I know that is considered nutty by all AR guys but I like it. My CLE tac/recon isn't lightweight or heavy. It's Goldylocks to me. If your wanting range/accuracy you might consider that. They will do a 19" if you want.

 

[DangerRanger]

Are you going to add a suppressor? If not I just love my unthreaded 20" barrels. They are quieter, more velocity and not any more awkward or heavy than a 16" with some huge muzzle device (which I think is just for looks) on it. CLE will make 'em just like that if you want. I know that is considered nutty by all AR guys but I like it. My CLE tac/recon isn't lightweight or heavy. It's Goldylocks to me. If your wanting range/accuracy you might consider that. They will do a 19" if you want.

Yes it will have a turbo k on it almost if not always. I know what you mean, I have a “boring” old capco a2 upper that is such a sweet balance without a can

 

[benchmstr]

This is my go-to for the type of rifle your talking about. I just shot out my bartlien after 5000 rounds and needed a quick replacement for a vacation I was taking where I would be hunting hogs and axis…I got the barrel linked bellow and noticed no difference in anything and it’s damn near a quarter of the price. I shoot almost exclusively 73 grain Berger..but just fucking around I put 55 and 62 grain through it…just as accurate.

i shoot this gun regularly out to 800 on ispc targets without issue..keep deer and large hogs (250lbs+) at 120 yards or less…everything else in Texas I will shoot further..

I usually run the slincerco specwar 556 as well and obviously their brake

Rainier Arms Select 5.56 NATO Mid Barrel - 16\

Select 5.56 NATO Mid Barrel - 16\

www.rainierarms.com

 

[MarkLeupold]

Funny enough, I had a 14.5" CORE mocked up as well...

Roughly 6 oz lighter than the CLE 15.1" Recon/16" Modified Tac profiles from above, with the total rifle COM being roughly two inches further rearward than the Recon.

Everything I've heard about CORE barrels has been excellent, and they seem like accurate barrels (MOAish). It got me thinking, how much does mass at the muzzle affect the overall stiffness of the barrel and reducing walking rounds over longer strings? One of the reasons the CORE can shed so much weight is the .625" gas block. Unobtainable with a .750" without lots of weird little steps.

 

[Brandon05_88]

I have a CLE/Douglas 16.1" tactical upper, and it is actually for sale.

SOLD - BCM/Douglas/Compass Lake Engineering 16” Upper SOLD

Upper started life as a full BCM build using a 14.5” pinned barrel. Upper, BCG, and CH seen 200-250 rounds before I got the precision itch again. Upper was sent to CLE for a re-barrel in March 2020. They removed the 14.5” barrel, installed a new barrel, new barrel nut, new gas block, and new gas...

www.snipershide.com

It weighed in at 9.6 lbs in the configuration in the photo (minus can and tripod). NF 4-16 is 30 oz. Spuhr 4026 is 8 oz. Harris bipod is 13 oz. That leaves 6.4 lbs for the upper, lower, Larue grip and Magpul ACS-L stock. That isn't bad for an all around rifle less optics.

I also had a NF 2.5-10x42 on it prior to the 4-16. The smaller optic saved 10 ounces, and it acted like a heavier carbine rather than a precision rifle.

I could weigh the upper, BCG, and CH this evening. I could find the balance point on the upper as well.

 

[benchmstr]

I have a CLE/Douglas 16.1" tactical upper, and it is actually for sale.

SOLD - BCM/Douglas/Compass Lake Engineering 16” Upper SOLD

Upper started life as a full BCM build using a 14.5” pinned barrel. Upper, BCG, and CH seen 200-250 rounds before I got the precision itch again. Upper was sent to CLE for a re-barrel in March 2020. They removed the 14.5” barrel, installed a new barrel, new barrel nut, new gas block, and new gas...

www.snipershide.com

It weighed in at 9.6 lbs in the configuration in the photo (minus can and tripod). NF 4-16 is 30 oz. Spuhr 4026 is 8 oz. Harris bipod is 13 oz. That leaves 6.4 lbs for the upper, lower, Larue grip and Magpul ACS-L stock. That isn't bad for an all around rifle less optics.

I also had a NF 2.5-10x42 on it prior to the 4-16. The smaller optic saved 10 ounces, and it acted like a heavier carbine rather than a precision rifle.

I could weigh the upper, BCG, and CH this evening. I could find the balance point on the upper as well.

That’s the same quandary I ran into with mine..I ultimately ended up with the Nordic components 15.5” handguard and surefire g2 flashlight because they were essentially weightless…I shoot out a barrel a year with that rifle and have never had a bipod on it..just throw my backpack underneath since I always have one with me.

don’t get me wrong..I’m all for bipods…but for whatever reason this mini precision rifle has never had one and I just realized it lol

 

[BCP]

Mine has a green mountain barrel in 16, it has a thinner profile maybe .740 for most of it except the gas block. If I were to do it again I'd pin a flash hider on a 14.5 and do a 12" handguard.

 

[bigjake83]

I use the CLE Fluted SDM Contour in all my Recce style uppers with great success.

 

[Brandon05_88]

Upper, BCG, and CH weigh 4.4 pounds as pictured. Balance point is 3.4” in front of receiver face, or the white line shown on the handguard.

 

[DangerRanger]

Thanks! I think im gonna go for the modified tactical if I go this route. With my can I think that weight is a little more than what I’m looking for

 

[PJ65C]

Mine has a green mountain barrel in 16, it has a thinner profile maybe .740 for most of it except the gas block. If I were to do it again I'd pin a flash hider on a 14.5 and do a 12" handguard.View attachment 7657994

Little off topic, but what bag is that you have?

 

[BCP]

Little off topic, but what bag is that you have?

Its the sportsmans warehouse brand cost like 60-70 bucks? Holds two rifles, has the molle things on it and comes with three pouches for mags/ammo etc.

Oh I spent like 20 bucks on a molle mag pouch thingy off ebay to make it more orderly.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I was doing the same build (all around 16" combat rifle), and wanted to go with the criterion CORE specifically due to the weight distribution and balancing they did of the barrel. Interesting stuff, and their bore scope videos sold me on quality of the work as well. All the other places I considered were MONTHS out on anything (white oak being priority, compass lake being second choice).

I didnt buy the CORE because they were sold out as well and happened to luck up on a once in a lifetime deal for a Proof Research in 16" intermediate gas length. Had that not happened, I would have been an honest coin flip between a criteron core or a lothar walther (as long as both were available).

 

[Jdfd556]

I use the CLE Fluted SDM Contour in all my Recce style uppers with great success.

Is this a custom profile that you spec'd out for CLE? I'm not finding the option for the SDM fluting on the SPR/MK 12, Recon, or Tactical barrel pages on their website. I'm looking at a 16" barrel to put in a larue or LMT monolithic upper and debating between a Krieger spun up by CLE (I have an 18" that's a hammer) or a 16" Intermediate gas Proof barrel. Would kinda like to match your barrel specs if it isn't too much trouble. Thank you!

 

[bigjake83]

Yeah just give them call and ask for Paul, tell him you want a 16" Krieger/Fluted SDM contour/ .750 intermediate gas/ CLE Match chamber/ 9/16 or 5/8 threads.

Tell Paul that I sent you and you'll get you squared away.

 

[Jdfd556]

Yeah just give them call and ask for Paul, tell him you want a 16" Krieger/Fluted SDM contour/ .750 intermediate gas/ CLE Match chamber/ 9/16 or 5/8 threads.

Tell Paul that I sent you and you'll get you squared away.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar thank you so much! Don't know if you have used the proof AR barrels much but is there any advantage to them besides weight savings? Reliability, Longevity, Velocity? My thought is to have this barrel converted to run in a LMT and once it's shot out, depending on performance, I can either convert another proof/CLE Krieger or just drop in a LMT stainless barrel.

 

[MontanaMan]

What Jake said about CLE.

CLE also has some "stock" contours that are lighter & they have drawings readily available...................just tell them what you want & they will send you the drawings of stuff not on their website as "standard".

Another good option is the Ranier UltraMatch 16" fluted barrel that comes in at 30 oz & they shoot great; their stock comes & goes on these. Ditto for anything from Craddock but his lead time are just unbearable right now.

MM

 

[bigjake83]

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar thank you so much! Don't know if you have used the proof AR barrels much but is there any advantage to them besides weight savings? Reliability, Longevity, Velocity? My thought is to have this barrel converted to run in a LMT and once it's shot out, depending on performance, I can either convert another proof/CLE Krieger or just drop in a LMT stainless barrel.

Yes I have used proof research barrels in the past and the main advantage they have over custom barrels is that they provide you a off-the-shelf option for a quality single point cut barrel, but as far as velocity or anything like that its all the same.

 

[Jdfd556]

What Jake said about CLE.

CLE also has some "stock" contours that are lighter & they have drawings readily available...................just tell them what you want & they will send you the drawings of stuff not on their website as "standard".

Another good option is the Ranier UltraMatch 16" fluted barrel that comes in at 30 oz & they shoot great; their stock comes & goes on these. Ditto for anything from Craddock but his lead time are just unbearable right now.

MM

Thank you! I have an 18" Krieger that CLE did up for me awhile back and it's a hammer. I actually also had a 14.5 Ultramatch barrel from Rainier that was a shooter too but the upper components that I selected for that upper was too damn heavy so I had to let that one go. Good to know about the drawings though!

 

[Jdfd556]

Yes I have used proof research barrels in the past and the main advantage they have over custom barrels is that they provide you a off-the-shelf option for a quality single point cut barrel, but as far as velocity or anything like that its all the same.

Right on, I saw a few posts about the velocity being faster in the Proofs compared to other barrels just wanting to check.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar thank you so much! Don't know if you have used the proof AR barrels much but is there any advantage to them besides weight savings? Reliability, Longevity, Velocity? My thought is to have this barrel converted to run in a LMT and once it's shot out, depending on performance, I can either convert another proof/CLE Krieger or just drop in a LMT stainless barrel.

FWIW, I got my proof barrel at a steal. $382 shipped, due to the fact that their model # and description didnt match..

Comparing it to my white oak armament SPR barrel (they run about $270 from white oak, less on brownells if you use a coupon), I have not noticed any significant difference in actual shooting performance.

Given the chance to repeat this, I would have tried a criterion core, or went with lothar walther, or another white oak. Not worth the extra money for an AR barrel, unless you're maybe building a benchrest AR. Definitely not worth it for a combat /SHTF rifle.

 

[Jdfd556]

FWIW, I got my proof barrel at a steal. $382 shipped, due to the fact that their model # and description didnt match..

Comparing it to my white oak armament SPR barrel (they run about $270 from white oak, less on brownells if you use a coupon), I have not noticed any significant difference in actual shooting performance.

Given the chance to repeat this, I would have tried a criterion core, or went with lothar walther, or another white oak. Not worth the extra money for an AR barrel, unless you're maybe building a benchrest AR. Definitely not worth it for a combat /SHTF rifle.

Great info here. Just to clarify, was this for one of their carbon wrapped barrels or standard stainless? I have pretty much made up my mind on another Krieger from CLE.

 

[GUNNER10]

Looking to build a 16”-ish do all rifle, and can’t land on a barrel and contour. Building it around a razor 1-6 and maybe a do all 50-550 yards. I have a 12.5 for a cqb rifle.

My contenders so far are:
Compass lake Krieger or Douglas- tactical contour

Criterion core
Ballistic advantage Hanson

I understand these cascade from pretty much the highest tier barrels to solidly mid grade. Part of that is that if I don’t really know what I want I may punt with a Hanson for now.

Anyway, Does anyone have a CLE tactical barrel? How do you like the weight and balance? Called them today and they said they can cut it down to .750 instead of .850 in front of the gas block and right now that’s probably what I’m leaning toward but still a little worried about weight. I think their thick chamber area is a little longer than most, but a .750 to the gas block and .750 tapering after shouldn’t be too heavy for a do all rifle.... right?

I think you are setting your self up for failure as soon as you start thinking about your rifle as a do all rifle. Once you add, a 2.5lb optic and mount, a 1lb can, a .5lb light, and a 1lb laser for night shooting. its a little silly to worry about 6oz of barrel contour.

Rather that worry about barrel contour, I would just invest in good qd type mounts and pull off the stuff that is not needed at the time and just toss it in your range bag.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Great info here. Just to clarify, was this for one of their carbon wrapped barrels or standard stainless? I have pretty much made up my mind on another Krieger from CLE.

It was the Stainless Steel. I didnt think the 14 oz of weight savings was worth the additional hundreds of dollars. I wasnt exactly going for a pencil profile anyway, for a SHTF rifle. I wanted an intermediate length gas 16" barrel primarily, and was gonna settle on mid length if I couldnt find that.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I think you are setting your self up for failure as soon as you start thinking about your rifle as a do all rifle. Once you add, a 2.5lb optic and mount, a 1lb can, a .5lb light, and a 1lb laser for night shooting. its a little silly to worry about 6oz of barrel contour.

Rather that worry about barrel contour, I would just invest in good qd type mounts and pull off the stuff that is not needed at the time and just toss it in your range bag.

This is sage advice. Whenever friends ask about building a rifle and what parts to get, I always try to steer the conversation towards "what do you want to do with this rifle?" I planned on putting a magpul UBR stock on mine, loved the feel but the added weight made me remove it once I got to swinging it around. Ended with a VLTOR Imod, not as light as the magpul CTR but better cheekweld for a combat rifle, and even storage built in.

Same thing with my LVPO...1-6x in a QD mount, added a lot more weight than I wanted. I will likely end up putting a trijicon MRO HD on it, with a 3x flip up instead.

I shot a carbine class with it, we removed slings and optics for that. The weight of the rifle with just magpul BUIS was ideal. I'd like to remain as close to that as I can for SHTF scenarios, as carrying extra weight makes you slower, which ultimately makes you an easier target too.

After about 5 rifles built now, I've finally learned the lesson of prioritizing function over form. Lots of gun parts look cool and the parts companies will gladly take your money, but priorities for me have become a balancing act of reliability and weight reduction.

 

[GUNNER10]

This is sage advice. Whenever friends ask about building a rifle and what parts to get, I always try to steer the conversation towards "what do you want to do with this rifle?" I planned on putting a magpul UBR stock on mine, loved the feel but the added weight made me remove it once I got to swinging it around. Ended with a VLTOR Imod, not as light as the magpul CTR but better cheekweld for a combat rifle, and even storage built in.

Same thing with my LVPO...1-6x in a QD mount, added a lot more weight than I wanted. I will likely end up putting a trijicon MRO HD on it, with a 3x flip up instead.

I shot a carbine class with it, we removed slings and optics for that. The weight of the rifle with just magpul BUIS was ideal. I'd like to remain as close to that as I can for SHTF scenarios, as carrying extra weight makes you slower, which ultimately makes you an easier target too.

After about 5 rifles built now, I've finally learned the lesson of prioritizing function over form. Lots of gun parts look cool and the parts companies will gladly take your money, but priorities for me have become a balancing act of reliability and weight reduction.

Thanks.

A lot of people fail to realize that they can do a lot of really good work with just a rifle, aimpoint T1 and a sling. All the other stuff defiantly has a place in the tool box, and with experience, people generally figure out what works and what doesn't.

Also, considering how affordable serviceable uppers are these days, I would really consider doing two uppers. Do a shorter, lighter CQB/Night shooter with an RDS, and a mid range day shooter with an LPVO and just grab what ever setup makes the most sense for the situation.

 

[DangerRanger]

I think you are setting your self up for failure as soon as you start thinking about your rifle as a do all rifle. Once you add, a 2.5lb optic and mount, a 1lb can, a .5lb light, and a 1lb laser for night shooting. its a little silly to worry about 6oz of barrel contour.

Rather that worry about barrel contour, I would just invest in good qd type mounts and pull off the stuff that is not needed at the time and just toss it in your range bag.

I understand your concern but I come to the opposite conclusion. Adding a light/can is why I want to take half a pound off the end of the gun if needed. Why not care about contour? Choosing the best contour for balance and weight is free.

I have a 12.5 SBR i love for shooting fast and running, so this rifle never needs to be better at that role

I have no use in a peq/dbal at this point. Perhaps I incorrectly worded this and should have put “generic” rifle instead of do all. I am not so naive to think this rifle will be perfect at everything. I just want a well balanced general carbine and if I’m gonna do it, I wanna do it as well as I can.

Thanks all

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I understand your concern but I come to the opposite conclusion. Adding a light/can is why I want to take half a pound off the end of the gun if needed. Why not care about contour? Choosing the best contour for balance and weight is free.

I have a 12.5 SBR i love for shooting fast and running, so this rifle never needs to be better at that role

I have no use in a peq/dbal at this point. Perhaps I incorrectly worded this and should have put “generic” rifle instead of do all. I am not so naive to think this rifle will be perfect at everything. I just want a well balanced general carbine and if I’m gonna do it, I wanna do it as well as I can.

Thanks all

Hate to say it but maybe the balancing act comes in form of adding a heavier rear if you're gonna run it front-heavy with a can and other goodies.

 

[thedude824]

Did you finish this build? Im curious as to what you went with as I'm doing the same thing in a 14.5" rifle.

 

[DangerRanger]

I couldn’t resist the white oak spr sale and went with a 16” mid length which is a recon profile. Rifle came out at 7.5 lbs with scope and balances at the mag well. I like it, would prefer a 14.5 In a perfect world but not fussed about it.